Amount of new content vs. time/cost to acquire

[VC381]

I have to say, obviously it's amazing we're always getting new lines and premiums and that there is such a huge amount of content in the game. But, I also feel really glad I started playing the game when I did. There are so many lines now and so many premiums, I can imagine a new player is completely swamped. On top of that, a lot of the new lines are very specialist and gimmicky which may overwhelm or put off new players who choose without understanding this. Several other games reduce the price (both in-game and real money) of old content as new content is introduced. Could this work here?

 

Example:

 

Original lines (full US and IJN trees) - 50% reduction in XP and Credit cost of everything at all tiers

First year lines (German and Soviet Cruisers I think) - 25% reduction in XP and Credit cost of everything at all tiers

From now on, every time a new line is introduced, the oldest line not already discounted gets -25% reduction in XP and Credit cost of everything at all tiers and the oldest discounted line moves to the -50% group

 

To compensate: newest line +25% XP and Credit cost to everything in the line for the first 3 months.

 

Same for premiums. Price reduction staggered by age with oldest at -50%, anything older than 1 year -25%. Compensate by increasing prices for brand new premiums, so people who want them now can pay extra (these people will always exist, the guys who buy the £100 bundles on release) but after some time others are not locked out and a new player can afford several ships if they want to spread out to a couple of different lines early on.

 

Am I going mad or could this work? I just think it's a shame to lock new players out of so much content. The game is grindy enough and it will only get more and more grindy the more lines are release. I genuinely don't think this is sustainable in terms of attracting new players and keeping them interested. If we make some stuff easy while keeping other stuff hard I think the game can find a better balance.

[Riselotte]

Is there a reason you need everything? No. Creating new stuff adds novelty and having a grind means people have something to try grow into the line. If you can have a Yamato after 50 games, just because it is old, it's still terrible design.

 

Other games might have such, but typically it's games where there is something like "endgame", but in WoWS, whether you have 1 or all T10s, you aren't necessarily thrown into different content. And getting 1 T10ß is as easy/hard now as it always was.

[VC381]

4 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Other games might have such, but typically it's games where there is something like "endgame", but in WoWS, whether you have 1 or all T10s, you aren't necessarily thrown into different content. And getting 1 T10ß is as easy/hard now as it always was.

Actually, other games that have this are mainly MOBAs, where the Champions themselves are the content even though the game is the same. As they release more champions, older ones get cheaper.

 

Same here, the ships themselves are the content, the gameplay is largely the same. So why not let people have a bit more easier when there is way more to have instead of arbitrarily saying that dedicating X amount of time to the game will only net you a small and ever-decreasing % of the content the longer the game is around.

[Tyrendian89]

they have not seen any need to do this in Tanks (at least not on any kind of  large scale), I dont expect they will in warships. and I dont see why they should either - it's not like these older lines were in any way worth less than the newer ones, heck if anything USN vs IJN is probably the most iconic you can get in this game (at least considering how weird and gimmicky all things Royal Navy are turning out to be)

[Commander_Cornflakes]

There are already some ways that make grinds a lot easier. 200% weekends, dragon flags, camos with great bonuses, credit discounts on ships, discounts on FreeXP, ...

[Butterdoll]

3 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Is there a reason you need everything? No. Creating new stuff adds novelty and having a grind means people have something to try grow into the line. If you can have a Yamato after 50 games, just because it is old, it's still terrible design.

 

Other games might have such, but typically it's games where there is something like "endgame", but in WoWS, whether you have 1 or all T10s, you aren't necessarily thrown into different content. And getting 1 T10ß is as easy/hard now as it always was.

Not quite. I don't think it's a bad design

I would appreciate some help.

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, VC381 said:

I have to say, obviously it's amazing we're always getting new lines and premiums and that there is such a huge amount of content in the game. But, I also feel really glad I started playing the game when I did. There are so many lines now and so many premiums, I can imagine a new player is completely swamped.

 

. I genuinely don't think this is sustainable in terms of attracting new players and keeping them interested. If we make some stuff easy while keeping other stuff hard I think the game can find a better balance.

you know? you are absolutely right.

 

At the beginning I didn't even knew which line to grind first (that was before the videos, the forum, etc), heck I didn't even knew how and where I could upgrade from t1 to t2 and so on. I was stuck at t1 for a while.

then, I started to come to the forum, seeing some videos and I as everybody else (I assume) started doing a race, in a hurry to reach t whatever.

Now I already have 3 t8 ships, full stock and very soon they will be 5 t8 ships, the sixth will take longer.

Meanwhile, only a short time ago I started doing random battles with my t7s after they complete the co-op and ops circuit before they are in a  minimum acceptable state for random. 

And they are ships that I want to return to (t4s-t5s).

So...

5 t8 ships to built from scratch, later will be 6

5 t7 ships yet to grind in random (captains)

10 t6 ships, grinding the captains

2 t4 ships to grind (captains), paused

7 t5 ships to grind (captains), paused

1 t3 ship, same thing.

 

I would need as many butterdolls as they are ships in the list above

 

Not to mention lines I would like to try.

Let me give you an example

if I wanted to try IJN dds I have to play Cikuma again but I am at t7 (Myoko), why not having instant access to the first dd in that line or via a personal challenge/mission?

 

 

Help?

 

tldr

I feel overwhelmed, 

 

 

 

 

[Riselotte]

2 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

you know? you are absolutely right.

 

At the beginning I didn't even knew which line to grind first (that was before the videos, the forum, etc), heck I didn't even knew how and where I could upgrade from t1 to t2 and so on. I was stuck at t1 for a while.

then, I started to come to the forum, seeing some videos and I as everybody else (I assume) started doing a race, in a hurry to reach t whatever.

Now I already have 3 t8 ships, full stock and very soon they will be 5 t8 ships, the sixth will take longer.

Meanwhile, only a short time ago I started doing random battles with my t7s after they complete the co-op and ops circuit before they are in a  minimum acceptable state for random. 

And they are ships that I want to return to (t4s-t5s).

So...

5 t8 ships to built from scratch, later will be 6

5 t7 ships yet to grind in random (captains)

10 t6 ships, grinding the captains

2 t4 ships to grind (captains), paused

7 t5 ships to grind (captains), paused

1 t3 ship, same thing.

Counting silver ships and not premium (because they research nothing), I have one line up to T9, 4 more up to T8 and an additional two to T7. If I had wanted the Kurfürst, I could likely have gotten there by now, but I felt like rather going for different ships. It's really quite manageable the amount of content there is.

 

And please don't go about how you need to grind your captain for lower tier ships. If you need more than 6 points for these ships, you really are just trying to sealclub down there.

2 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

Not to mention lines I would like to try.

Let me give you an example

if I wanted to try IJN dds I have to play Cikuma again but I am at t7 (Myoko), why not having instant access to the first dd in that line or via a personal challenge/mission

Or you spend 720 free exp, because that is what Umikaze costs. That's a paltry sum.

[Hedgehog1963]

As someone who took a decision some time ago not to grind everything I don't recognise the issue as being a problem.  There are two "nations" I have never played a single battle with and never will for example.  Looks like there's a third on the way.  I've never played a Jap carrier and never gone past the Bogue with the Yanks.  I'm not actively grinding any cruiser line which doesn't have smoke.

 

Even if I liked the idea of playing the French and Italian lines |(and the upcoming South Americans) I'd not have time to grind them out because WoWS is my second game after WoT  I don't have everything in WoT up to tier X because I don't like SPG play.  It doesn't bother me.  A friend of mine intends to get every tank one day.  That's nice for him.

 

What the game offers you, even if you don't play a lot, is choices.  You might really only like your own nation, or you might only like one class of ship.  Perhaps you have plenty of time and you want everything.  It's up to each player.

 

I don't recognise what you say about premium ships.  I buy a ship I want when it becomes available because I know that WG sometimes pull in-game objects from sale and never sell them again.  Nikolai, Gremiashchy, and Belfast are examples.

[Gnirf]

Well OP:

 

 My take on this;

 

The wargaming have introduced a fair amount of missions and new camos which speed up the grind - we have lots of very XP rich camos today, however it is somewhat strange that they have made the camos almost 50-100 % more expensive, even if we factor in the higher quality. Camos with 100 XP + 100 commander XP could be had for around 20 EUR /200 pcs now its like 35EUR. They should decreas id anything to speed up the grind. Older premiums are discounted/bundled from time to time, but the tech tree offers of bundles which was rather frequent a while ago, does not exist today and tech tree are for those with many ships like myself completely empty. Expensive premium flags also help.

 

I guess WG can do more , increase the first win bonuses and so on - more xp -rich missions, etc for the F2p players - introduce a extra premium variant with double grind/credits to speed up the process even more.

I personally do not need it , I started when there was two lines so I am keeping up so to speak.

I am not sure if there is a problem that you have variety and lines to choose from. That many players today can start with their country /ies of interest /origin must be seen as attractive.

The main problem for a newcomer might be more in that many players are mature and have veteran captains on low tiers so that the disdavantages of being new without at least 10 p captains are far higher today fairly early in game. We oldies learnt in somewhat easier surroundings. 

 

The shop with the one piece at a time thing is badly constructed, other stores have buy 3 get the cheapest for free, or discounts on everything now and then. They have never been an incentive to buy several ships or other packages at same time unless it is prebundled and the more ship you have , especially with the new doubloon rules it is less likely to be of interest.

 

I have recieved 3 coupons in the 20-30 % range this year- nothing to buy. As even the 100 flags bundles are at a discount of 5%, I could not even buy them. Even though I feel appriciated by recieving personal offers the coupons have so many restrictions that more or less only premium time is the only thing and I have roughly 400 days already, when you for 3 consecutive coupons do not find anything to buy I am more annoyed.

At least give the coupon its value on everything reduced with the discount already given in store.

 

I agree with you OP that older premiums should be discounted more, at least from time to time. But things like the Indy mission we have today might be a first, take an old premium and present it in a mission as a gift.

That is something I like.

 

I have seen some reactions on these matters from WG staff - that hard core buyers are a little left out  - but they are a small group? - and that some sort of store may be created.

 

My suggestions will have to be in combination with such a store that if you buy several things at the same time regardless if you buy them as gifts for others or for your self - (should be able to combine) you have discounts when you reach certain tresholds regardless of whether the things you buy are a discounted bundle or not.

 

I have around 20000 Gold atm that I find difficult to put to any use and all new premium ships comes with bundles with flags etc that I want but with gold that I cannot use.

The more ships you have the marginal value of each premium decreases so the less attractive the overall bundle is the less I will buy. I have abstained from several ships as I wait for the to come in the tech tree even if they are not discounted there. 

 

I see very little appreciation for the around 2000 EUR I have spent on the game in extra discounts, but I am probably part of those hard core buyers that WG staff announces are at an disadvantage.

But I see ways to come around that problem. That is to give discount coupons like 20/30 % on everything  - no restrictions if so I might have buy something but WG must enrich the premiums in tech tree after a while, or put them more in rotation. So I can find any use of the doubloons. 

 

 

 

[NoirLotus]

Grinding in WoWs is already much faster than in a game like WoT : flags and camos really boost the xp gained. As an example, I only need 50 games in a T9 ship to unlock the T10, when I need more than 200 for tanks.

 

And I agree with other people : you don't need to research every ship. Thi is a game, play what you enjoy and have fun !!

[Juanx]

Given that you dont HAVE to have anything...

Here, topic over, thanks for playing.

[VC381]

Hmm OK, guess that wasn't a very popular suggestion. Still, it's fair enough people consider tier itself as content but I still think separate lines/ships are content in themselves and basically the longer the game exists, the less a new player can access for a given time investment. That's usually not a good way to keep people interested, even with regular events to speed up the grind. It's not really about the speed of the grind as such, more about the principle of access to content.

 

That's why I use the MOBA example, as it's the closest thing I can think of where new characters to play with are added regularly and the game is always expanding. In those games the oldest characters are very cheap to unlock but they are not in any way devalued, some are top tier competitive if you're a good player with them.

 

Choice is great but the choice is inherently time restricted. I don't see the benefit in making the choice harder and harder. A couple of years ago you could choose a few lines to spend X time on and you would have played a significant % of the ships in the game. Today you can spend the same X time for the same few lines but barely scratch the surface of what's on offer. Your choice has much less value because there is so much more to choose from.

 

Perceived speed of progression is relative to total amount of stuff to unlock. That's why I think more choice is in a way less choice if content keeps getting added without making it easier to get it.

[RAHJAILARI]

14 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Is there a reason you need everything?

Dammits, I was gonna say that...

 

But yeah, the exact same sentiments here. personally I only started with this because I am interested in historical ships and IJN ships is particular. So consequently I have acquired them all - Well except for Kawachi, which I sold off as a horrible mistake, just because it was (so I have König Albert for a tier 3 BB instead) and of course I do not have the paper ships either.

 

Besides of those I do have a few others - Russian, USN, French, German and so forth. You know the premiums I somehow got from somewhere and others which I ground up to just because I was interested in the ship itself (Richelieu, Hipper, Algerie and so on). I am quite content with that.

[Profilus]

14 hours ago, VC381 said:

Actually, other games that have this are mainly MOBAs, where the Champions themselves are the content even though the game is the same. As they release more champions, older ones get cheaper.

 

Same here, the ships themselves are the content, the gameplay is largely the same. So why not let people have a bit more easier when there is way more to have instead of arbitrarily saying that dedicating X amount of time to the game will only net you a small and ever-decreasing % of the content the longer the game is around.

I bet all those champions or whatever are also better than old ones. Not the case here.

[VC381]

13 minutes ago, Profilus said:

I bet all those champions or whatever are also better than old ones. Not the case here.

 

I just said in my more recent post that some of these earliest and cheapest champions are still top tier competitive picks. And some new ones are weak, there's really no correlation between age/cost and power level. Of course people in those games sometimes cry about power creep, but there are enough people crying about power creep in WoWs as well. It's probably closer to being the case here than in most MOBAs...

 

Of course you don't have to have everything, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that as a % of the total content available, a new player will feel really left out at how little they can get compared to how someone might have felt starting a year or two ago.

[Profilus]

19 minutes ago, VC381 said:

a new player will feel really left out at how little they can get compared to how someone might have felt starting a year or two ago.

Doesnt matter how much tier 10-s new player has, he can still choose only 1 to enter battle and as everyone else he has to choose which line he wants to grind/play and start with it. If he wants to play RN line then getting US line cheaper/sooner won't give anything for that person. If he wants both then these are 2 lines he grinds 1st. Simple!

[Uglesett]

1 hour ago, Profilus said:

I bet all those champions or whatever are also better than old ones. Not the case here.

Can't speak for Dota or LoL, but in Heroes of the Storm most of the older heroes are just as competitive as the newer ones. And most of the ones that were either a bit underpowered or just clunky in how they worked mechanically have been reworked.

 

In HotS new heroes are released with a cost of 15000 gold (the free currency that you get from playing), and then drop down to 10k gold after a couple of months.

 

It at least used to be that they dropped further down to 7k a long while after that, but I'm not sure if they still do that or if they just keep them stuck at 10k. I can't remember if any heroes have been reduced to 7k over the past year, but I haven't been paying that much attention either.

[th3freakie]

Since you do not need to unlock every single ship in every single line to appreciate what the game has to offer, I don't quite agree with this notion. Besides, the grind and the premium time to shorten it is a lot of what keeps the money flowing.

 

I would perhaps agree with the premiums, however. Some old premium ships might have sold all they're ever going to sell at the original price range, and they might make some money if the drop the price range after a year or so. But then again I can perfectly live with things as they are now too, and no-one wants to see a new influx of noobs at t8 because the Tripitz fell to 15€ or so.

[Profilus]

8 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

Can't speak for other Dota or LoL, but in Heroes of the Storm most of the older heroes are just as competitive as the newer ones. And most of the ones that were either a bit underpowered or just clunky in how they worked mechanically have been reworked.

 

In HotS new heroes are released with a cost of 15000 gold (the free currency that you get from playing), and then drop down to 10k gold after a couple of months.

 

It at least used to be that they dropped further down to 7k a long while after that, but I'm not sure if they still do that or if they just keep them stuck at 10k. I can't remember if any heroes have been reduced to 7k over the past year, but I haven't been paying that much attention either.

No idea about those games, but here u get sometimes sales on different tiers and just by playing you get credits and free xp to skip ship(s) so that kinda makes tierX "cheaper" if you want it to be. Also, WG still wants money for freexp conversion.

[RAHJAILARI]

4 hours ago, th3freakie said:

... and no-one wants to see a new influx of noobs at t8 because the Tripitz fell to 15€ or so.

Hhehehe! Ahh the good old days of the "Battleship Atago-land" and the "Tirpitz Torpedo-boat flotilla"(totally no need to use main guns, just get close enough)... Sometimes I miss the absurdity of it all (granted, it is not often, but when I get drunk enough).

[Uglesett]

21 minutes ago, Profilus said:

No idea about those games, but here u get sometimes sales on different tiers and just by playing you get credits and free xp to skip ship(s) so that kinda makes tierX "cheaper" if you want it to be. Also, WG still wants money for freexp conversion.

But none of this actually serves the same purpose as dropping the price of older heroes in e.g. HotS does.

 

The point of making older heroes cheaper is to basically make it easier for newer players to "catch up" to those who have been playing for a long time. Not to get everything, but to get a decent enough collection to be able to fulfill most roles in a match and have good variety. Those who have been playing a lot and for a long time will easily be able to get the newest heroes at the release cost immediately to complete the collection, while newer players can at least get a collection started fairly quickly by buying the discounted heroes.

 

Free exp and credits (as well as elite captain exp) in WoWS aren't that kind of "catch up" mechanisms, they're more the opposite actually. Those who have played a lot over a long time will always have a lot more of both. If you've played a lot, you might be able to free exp your way up a new line as soon as it's released.

 

I'll grant you that the credit discounts partially play that role (assuming older players don't benefit as much as they've already gone through those ships), but they can be very hit and miss since you need to actually have the right line partially researched already in order to benefit from it.

[Profilus]

9 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

The point of making older heroes cheaper is to basically make it easier for newer players to "catch up" to those who have been playing for a long time. Not to get everything, but to get a decent enough collection to be able to fulfill most roles in a match and have good variety. Those who have been playing a lot and for a long time will easily be able to get the newest heroes at the release cost immediately to complete the collection, while newer players can at least get a collection started fairly quickly by buying the discounted heroes.

So you can play those games without hero too? If so, then only equivalent in this game is premium ship and its not needed to be equal with others.

[15JG52Adler]

16 hours ago, VC381 said:

I have to say, obviously it's amazing we're always getting new lines and premiums and that there is such a huge amount of content in the game. But, I also feel really glad I started playing the game when I did. There are so many lines now and so many premiums, I can imagine a new player is completely swamped. On top of that, a lot of the new lines are very specialist and gimmicky which may overwhelm or put off new players who choose without understanding this. Several other games reduce the price (both in-game and real money) of old content as new content is introduced. Could this work here?

 

Example:

 

Original lines (full US and IJN trees) - 50% reduction in XP and Credit cost of everything at all tiers

First year lines (German and Soviet Cruisers I think) - 25% reduction in XP and Credit cost of everything at all tiers

From now on, every time a new line is introduced, the oldest line not already discounted gets -25% reduction in XP and Credit cost of everything at all tiers and the oldest discounted line moves to the -50% group

 

To compensate: newest line +25% XP and Credit cost to everything in the line for the first 3 months.

 

Same for premiums. Price reduction staggered by age with oldest at -50%, anything older than 1 year -25%. Compensate by increasing prices for brand new premiums, so people who want them now can pay extra (these people will always exist, the guys who buy the £100 bundles on release) but after some time others are not locked out and a new player can afford several ships if they want to spread out to a couple of different lines early on.

 

Am I going mad or could this work? I just think it's a shame to lock new players out of so much content. The game is grindy enough and it will only get more and more grindy the more lines are release. I genuinely don't think this is sustainable in terms of attracting new players and keeping them interested. If we make some stuff easy while keeping other stuff hard I think the game can find a better balance.

2692 posts

3925 games

 

i can see a problem here :)

 

personal i started playing this game when there were only 2 nations....this now is much better situation because you can choose more play stiles and nations than in beginning.

 

Money is not a problem in this game like it was in WOT...in WOT i had premium account and tanks and still need to grind money hard....ussusly got XP to research tank but money was lacking.....here we do not have money problem in general. and XPe grind with all cammos and flags is much less time demanding....you basicaly can (with full xpe setup) in 70 games finish (without epic resault in every game) t9 ship.

 

 

[VC381]

48 minutes ago, Profilus said:

Doesnt matter how much tier 10-s new player has, he can still choose only 1 to enter battle and as everyone else he has to choose which line he wants to grind/play and start with it. If he wants to play RN line then getting US line cheaper/sooner won't give anything for that person. If he wants both then these are 2 lines he grinds 1st. Simple!

 

If a player only wants one or two lines then yes. But there is so much more to want, this isn't realistic.

 

Let me try one more time to explain what I mean:

 

Player A starts playing when the game is quite new. There are 10 lines to grind. He looks and he really wants 5 (50% of available content). But he only realistically has time to grind 3. Still, he gets 60% of what he wanted and 30% of the total available, so he is happy.

 

Player B starts playing the game a few years later. There are now 24 lines. He looks and really wants 8. This is actually less greedy than Player A, because it's only 33% of the available lines. But he also only has time to realistically grind 3 lines. He gets only 37% of what he wanted originally, which is only 12% of the available lines.

 

Do you see how Player B might see this as a bit unfair?

[Uglesett]

25 minutes ago, Profilus said:

So you can play those games without hero too? If so, then only equivalent in this game is premium ship and its not needed to be equal with others.

To start with your second point: Premium ships in WoWS aren't really comparable to heroes in HotS... I mean, you can buy heroes directly with "gems" (which are basically doubloons) or you can buy them with gold that you earn from playing. There aren't any "premium" heroes that you can only buy for cash equivalent. And all heroes behave the same with regards to ingame rewards.

 

You always play as a hero. That's sort of the point of the game. Think of it as a top-down real time strategy game where you only control a single unit.

 

You have a rotation of 10 (I think) heroes that are available for everyone and that changes on a weekly basis. So you always have an opportunity to try out a hero that you're unsure about if you just keep checking the weekly rotation. And then you can unlock a hero permanently by paying either gold or gems.

 

I'm not quite sure how it works for a new player now, but I think you get a selection of two or three free starting bundles with a number of heroes, so you have a small pool to begin with (in addition to the heroes on weekly rotation).