RADAR

[Cyberfounder]

Hello all,
 

I recently move up in the higher tiers with destroyers of different nations and was looking forward to the benefits of the higher tier destroyers (VII and up), better torpedo range, concealment, etc...

The first few dozen battles were fun, rushing to get the CAP, popping smoke for allied ships as well as for myself so that I don't get instantly killed when I open fire, you know regular destroyer stuff and tactics.

But the last few weeks I have been encountering ships with radar on every map, and not just one ship with a radar of 20 seconds, but at least 2 to 3 ships a map and sometimes even 5 or more with long radar times...
 

Last game it was 6 ships with radar. Game setup was 1 destroyer 7 cruisers and 4 battleships. I was lit up every second, smoke was useless as well as hiding since ships were everywhere.  I could not counter since there was not one ship on my team with radar?
 

One ship hit me with radar from +10km away??? o.O I could not even see it until it was too late of course, one hit from a Battleship and down I went... :/

Why is radar so overpowered? It's not hard enough in a destroyer, cruisers have so many benefits, fast reload time, one hit will put an enemy battleship on fire again and again and again, defensive AA fire, hydro, spotting aircraft, and so on and so on. I mean, radar go's through the mountains? o.O

What do I get in a higher tier destroyer... Smoke that is completely useless now and an engine boost, which is also useless since I'm compelled to stay in the back if I want to make it at least through the first few minutes of the game cause the moment I hit a cap the enemy radar lits me up like a Christmas tree.
 

At this point I'm just sick of the game, if I had know about radar before, I would not have put everything in destroyers, well not everything since I also play with carriers, but those are even more useless in higher tiers, planes can't even make it to the target without all of them dying in the first 2 or 3 seconds of coming in AA range.

Thank you for reading my rant. ^^

[principat121]

9 minutes ago, Cyberfounder said:

Thank you for reading my rant.

I didn't!

Radar-mimimi sounds all the same.

 

And there is already an open thread about radar, but I guess you are so special that you deserve your own thread!

[ColonelPete]

• think about your tactics, sitting in smoke at the beginning of the match is just bad play
• radar was there before and you failed to adapt
• you cannot cover the whole map with 6 radars
• and yes, Speed Boost is very important when you get radared

[RAHJAILARI]

Hhehehe! @Cyberfounder Welcome to high tier DD play lad! We're glad to have you. A few tips may be in order, because you will have to radically adjust (read: change) your gameplay in order to survive from now on.

 

1) Do not rush to cap. The moment you enter the cap circle and they see it changing color, the nearest radar Cruiser will pop it on and you will be toast. Instead "BAIT" the radar. So enter the cap only with the express purpose of getting the radar ship to fire it up, then U-turn, kite away and escape to safety beyond its spotting range. It helps a lot, if you anticipate this happening and make sure you are already partially turned around before you get hit by radar so the running away part goes smoother and faster too. So you have to think of your game plan in advance and make sure you are prepared to kite the heck outta there right away. Exception to this rule is, if there is an opportune island in the cap circle you can shelter behind, but even this does not always work (when faced with US Cruisers with high gun arcs), so running away until it is safe to return is often the better option. Do the same  when faced with several radars, only MUCH more often and carefully. Also, do not be tempted to go into the middle of the cap zone but remain at the friendly back-edge of it, you can cap from there AND when a radar lights you up, you can also easily escape out of its range. Most radar ranges are just barely enough to cover the cap circle itself so the radar ship cannot follow you far without going out of cover and risking to get shot up by your ever-watchful allies nearby (hopefully).

2) Do your homework and learn the radar ranges of every radar equipped ship there is. As much as possible, avoid getting within range unless you are sure they have used it already. On the other hand, the radar's cooldown times are quite long, upwards of 3 mins usually, so once they have been expended - It is during those times you can approach and torp the ba*stard, ask your team to assist in taking them down quickly (F3 is a great helper in this). Oh yeah, keep in mind radar does not help spotting incoming torps and if the radar range is 9,5km and your torp range is 10, you know what that means right?

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Consumables#Surveillance_Radar

3) ALWAYS keep track of what they are and where the enemy radar ships are positioned. Do not go to their immediate vicinity unless covered by an island and supported by other ships. Try to keep track of when and how many times they have used their radars because once they are all used-up they are just regular Cruisers and many are quite squishy to boot.

4) ALWAYS make sure you have backup available to engage a radar ship. So learn "How to play Fleet" and do not stray too far from friendly Cruisers or BB's by yourself (scout for them instead). Oh yeah and forget about sitting in smoke capping, that will get you killed pronto. Keep moving and be ready to dodge at moment's notice.

5) Anticipate their positioning. Radar Cruisers like to park behind islands near or in-between 2 cap circles on either side, usually in-between 2 caps is best, that way they can spot both caps for the price of one. Even if you have not directly seen them yet, it makes sense to expect them to have made their way to those locations. Plan your course and evasive actions accordingly and as far away from those points as reasonable (not to the ends of earth, of course, just on the edge of their radar range is fine). And if possible, make sure not to go to a position where you end up in a cross-fire from 2 sides.

 

I hope this helps. Enjoy!

[WingedHussar_Adler]

help the guy, dont trash him ffs.....he can not get better if nobody helps him

 

 mid-hight tier play of DDs for sure changed with introduction of new radar line ships for harder.

 

what are steps to prepare for dd plan in radar enviroment

 

1. look for radar ships and learn its ranges....USA max 10 km, RU almost 12

2. dont contest cap if you dont have fast run away path, for sure you will geet radared when they see you capping

3. try to "bait" radar....cap from safe (behinnd iceland), dance on his radar range, maybee he turns it on.

4. dont try to smoke and shoot if you are on open..you can do it near the rock or some fast-run-away point

 

to be honest it is hard when new USA line have longer radar range than detection range

[Cyberfounder]

Thank you Rahjailari and Adler, those are acctually very helpfull and understanding comments. I quess I have some homework then, since there is no real way to counter it. I just feel I'm not helping out the team as good as before and it feel like this every last few games, but I will put your lessons to the the test and hope I can find some fun again. :)

Bushwacker, thats funny comming from someone with a hidden profile. 

 

[RAHJAILARI]

5 minutes ago, Cyberfounder said:

Thank you Rahjailari and Adler, those are acctually very helpfull and understanding comments. I quess I have some homework then, since there is no real way to counter it. I just feel I'm not helping out the team as good as before and it feel like this every last few games, but I will put your lessons to the the test and hope I can find some fun again. :)

No problem. With these tips you can get started at the least and refine your own tactics too. Just always keep in mind. be patient, it helps no-one if you are dead so frequently and bravely just running away must become your second nature now. You can always double back later for a rematch after the radar is spent (so basically 30 sec later is fine, hehehe). So keep that in mind and prioritise your survival first. once that is mastered, you can start with the nitty-gritty of figuring out how to get some caps and damage too. No worries.

[Procrastes]

I'd say you have had a spot of unlucky matchmaking, OP. This happens now and again; my tip would be to go back down to tiers 4-6 and play a few hopefylly radar-free destroyer games there to get back in the seat.

 

Radar can be in a pain in the stern, especially if you end up against several radar cruisers in a single battle. But to be honest, a skilled carrier player dedicated to keeping you spotted can be even worse. I recently had a game in my Haida where the enemy carrier kept a squadron ready to intercept me every single time I tried a scouting run. I tell you, I kept driving in circles in my little smoke cloud, blazing away at the swarm of fighters buzzing around overhead, and in the end I netted three shot down planes as the total for that entire battle. (It was three planes more than our own carrier, so there was that, as well.) I've been thinking of taking my Kidd out for a spin, just for the chance to go up against that carrier player once again... that would be something to write home about.

 

But I digress. To address your specific points:

- You complain of radar going through mountains? This is a deliberate game mechanic, and has nothing to do with reality. Hydro works the same way in the game.

- It's true that there's no point in staying in your smoke once you get radar detected. Just bite the bullet and get the heck out of Dodge. Engine boost can help you with this, so that at least is hardly worthless.

- One counter (sorta) against smoke is to sail out in one of those gunboat destroyers with high shell speed (Russian, German or the Blyskawica), and lob HE shells at those pesky radar cruisers from within smoke but outside of their radar range. Or you can forgo the smoke and just dodge their return fire with your superior manoeuvrability; they hate that. It helps to have a captain with the Advanced Firing Training skill.

- If you have them and can spare them, hoist an anti-Detonation signal flag (Juliet Charlie). They help more than you'd think, as destroyers are notoriously prone to get Detonated.

 

But above all, you should follow the code for small, lightly armoured scout vehicles everywhere. Accept that you will not survive. As a destroyer captain, you should embrace...

 

The Way of the Rabbit

1. I must keep moving at all times, unless I am in cover. Unless equipped with hydro, I must not stay still too long even in smoke, or I die by torpedo. Regardless of cover, I must not be idle; see point 6.

2. I must not fire my guns at every enemy I spot, as soon as I spot him. If I do I will not kill him, but he and his buddies will spot and kill me. Everyone shoots at the Rabbit.

3. I must not pop smoke as soon as I get an enemy in gun range, unless I am certain that this enemy is also spotted by someone other than me. Otherwise I will simply lose sight of the enemy, as well as telling him where I am.

4. I must ignore Karma. With luck, someone will shoot at the enemy I just spotted, but just as likely, someone won't. The Rabbit will not be embittered by this but will move on. See point 1.

5. I must also ignore chat-spammers who try to spam me into suiciding for their amusement.

6. I may keep my distance for a while and wait for incoming ships, but if they don’t appear in short order then I must seek out the enemy. See point 1.

7. I must not fear fear itself, but embrace it. There is no shame in running away. I am, after all, a Rabbit.

8. Rabbit Morghulis.

[Juanx]

15 minutes ago, 15JG52Adler said:

help the guy, dont trash him ffs.....he can not get better if nobody helps him

 

Why?

The OP did not ask for help, he was asking "why is radar so overpowered?".

So perfectly fine to trash someone that is looking for a hug instead of help...

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

59 minutes ago, Cyberfounder said:

Why is radar so overpowered? It's not hard enough in a destroyer, cruisers have so many benefits, fast reload time, one hit will put an enemy battleship on fire again and again and again, defensive AA fire, hydro, spotting aircraft, and so on and so on. I mean, radar go's through the mountains? o.O

 

Yeah cruisers are clearly the most OP class right now... 

[Sargento_YO]

Oh no, not again!!! another dd player which wants to sit down in their smoke screen!!

There are not enough radars in the game. All dds should have them too.

[RAHJAILARI]

Oh yeah @Procrastes is right. Totally forgot, this is your life now: Be pwepawed!

 

[Miessa3]

1 hour ago, Cyberfounder said:

One ship hit me with radar from +10km away??? o.O I could not even see it until it was too late of course, one hit from a Battleship and down I went... :/

Russian Cruisers

they have long range radars but they don't last as long as the shorter 9,9 km max ones on USN cruisers.

In tier IX and X (Donskoi + Moskva) you are only safe in 11,7+km

If you get caught by those surviving and dodging is the name of the game as they will usualy run out way before you can reach their maximum range. (about 20 secounds)

 

The funny thing about hightier DDs is that instead of Tier VII like most ships (because of the scewed MM) the most comfortable Tier is actualy Tier VIII. It's because you get the Consealment modification there (and DDs don't actualy care that much being uptiered) which may won't help you much against radars but is very useful for fighting anything else, especially DDs. You will find that you have a hard time in Tier VII against higher Tier DDs as they can outspot you. (well except if you own a Haida )

[tank276]

1 hour ago, Cyberfounder said:

Hello all,
 

I recently move up in the higher tiers with destroyers of different nations and was looking forward to the benefits of the higher tier destroyers (VII and up), better torpedo range, concealment, etc...

The first few dozen battles were fun, rushing to get the CAP, popping smoke for allied ships as well as for myself so that I don't get instantly killed when I open fire, you know regular destroyer stuff and tactics.

But the last few weeks I have been encountering ships with radar on every map, and not just one ship with a radar of 20 seconds, but at least 2 to 3 ships a map and sometimes even 5 or more with long radar times...
 

Last game it was 6 ships with radar. Game setup was 1 destroyer 7 cruisers and 4 battleships. I was lit up every second, smoke was useless as well as hiding since ships were everywhere.  I could not counter since there was not one ship on my team with radar?
 

One ship hit me with radar from +10km away??? o.O I could not even see it until it was too late of course, one hit from a Battleship and down I went... :/

Why is radar so overpowered? It's not hard enough in a destroyer, cruisers have so many benefits, fast reload time, one hit will put an enemy battleship on fire again and again and again, defensive AA fire, hydro, spotting aircraft, and so on and so on. I mean, radar go's through the mountains? o.O

What do I get in a higher tier destroyer... Smoke that is completely useless now and an engine boost, which is also useless since I'm compelled to stay in the back if I want to make it at least through the first few minutes of the game cause the moment I hit a cap the enemy radar lits me up like a Christmas tree.
 

At this point I'm just sick of the game, if I had know about radar before, I would not have put everything in destroyers, well not everything since I also play with carriers, but those are even more useless in higher tiers, planes can't even make it to the target without all of them dying in the first 2 or 3 seconds of coming in AA range.

Thank you for reading my rant. ^^

If it feels any better, the meta changes. About 1,5 year ago it was heavy smoke meta, apparently more radar ships were implemented to break the stalemate (they probably overdid it).

@15JG52Adler and @RAHJAILARI give sane advice.

It will take some time to adapt but you have to for tiers 8 and above.

As another choice keep to t7 and below where radars are more scarce or play a bit of another class like Battleships (or even cruisers yourself).

Wooster line doesnt seem very powerful IMO, maybe people will slowly abandon the grind so less radar ships.

Dont push caps aggresively in the start of game untill you spot where most enemy radar ships are.

If and when you do push, make sure you have friendly radar cover near you and always have an escape path (i.e. islands to cover behind or escape causeways) if things get hairy.

Cheers

 

[RAHJAILARI]

11 minutes ago, tank276 said:

 @RAHJAILARI give sane advice.It will take some time to adapt but you have to for tiers 8 and above.

Indeed my friend, thanks for appreciation... I am wise and all-knowing. They do NOT call me "Wonka, the Sane" for nothing...

[ForlornSailor]

49 minutes ago, 15JG52Adler said:

help the guy, dont trash him ffs.....he can not get better if nobody helps him

 

While I do agree that giving advice is the better answer, this is starting to become a full-time-job. Literally once every 24 hours a new thread with the exact same content is opened. And atleast 1 out of 2 will insult your for trying to be helpful (the last topic, that got closed yesterday, went exactly this route). Its kinda frustreting, when you put time and efford in, to help someone you dont even know, which very likely doesnt even benefit me and in return get insulted. Many of those ppl, opening a whine thread, are not looking for advice, they want to stomp their feet, demanding the game gets changed the way they want it. But in this case, the OP seems to be open for suggestions, so thats a good thing.

[Capra76]

40 minutes ago, Sargento_YO said:

Oh no, not again!!! another dd player which wants to sit down in their smoke screen!!

There are not enough radars in the game. All dds should have them too.

Your lack of any experience in DD is starting to tell.

[RAHJAILARI]

1 hour ago, ForlornSailor said:

While I do agree that giving advice is the better answer, this is starting to become a full-time-job. Literally once every 24 hours a new thread with the exact same content is opened. And atleast 1 outof 2 will insult your for trying to be helpful (the last topic, that got closed yesterday, went exactly this route). Its kinda frustreting, when you put time and efford in, to help someone you dont even know, which very likely doesnt even benefit me and in return get insulted. Many of those ppl, opening a whine thread, are not looking for advice, they want to stomp their feet, demanding the game gets changed the way they want it. But in this case, the OP seems to be open for suggestions, so thats a good thing.

No worries, this guy is kosher - We already checked. We expect big things out of @Cyberfounder in the near future, big things (no pressure, of course). So advise away. But yeah, I share the feeling. Have thought about just copying my responses to repeating topics like this one as well as the one about MM and a few others to notepad. Then just paste the same sh*it every time.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

46 minutes ago, Juanx said:

 

Why?

The OP did not ask for help, he was asking "why is radar so overpowered?".

So perfectly fine to trash someone that is looking for a hug instead of help...

 

3 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

While I do agree that giving advice is the better answer, this is starting to become a full-time-job. Literally once every 24 hours a new thread with the exact same content is opened. And atleast 1 out of 2 will insult your for trying to be helpful (the last topic, that got closed yesterday, went exactly this route). Its kinda frustreting, when you put time and efford in, to help someone you dont even know, which very likely doesnt even benefit me and in return get insulted. Many of those ppl, opening a whine thread, are not looking for advice, they want to stomp their feet, demanding the game gets changed the way they want it. But in this case, the OP seems to be open for suggestions, so thats a good thing.

 

i agree to bout of yours points....yes "nerf radars" are new hype on forums.....but OP was not aggresive as others and was williing to accept that part of problem is with him not with "OP OMGFH NERF"

[Cyberfounder]

8 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

While I do agree that giving advice is the better answer, this is starting to become a full-time-job. Literally once every 24 hours a new thread with the exact same content is opened. And atleast 1 out of 2 will insult your for trying to be helpful (the last topic, that got closed yesterday, went exactly this route). Its kinda frustreting, when you put time and efford in, to help someone you dont even know, which very likely doesnt even benefit me and in return get insulted. Many of those ppl, opening a whine thread, are not looking for advice, they want to stomp their feet, demanding the game gets changed the way they want it. But in this case, the OP seems to be open for suggestions, so thats a good thing.

Believe me, I'm grateful for the advice.

My captain is not fully upgraded and since I'm sort on money, neither is my ship, still got 4 upgrades left, so maybe when those are done, it will get better.
Already implemented some of the suggested tactics and it seems to pay off, I have a lot to learn. :)

[RAHJAILARI]

1 minute ago, Cyberfounder said:

Believe me, I'm grateful for the advice.

My captain is not fully upgraded and since I'm sort on money, neither is my ship, still got 4 upgrades left, so maybe when dose are done, it will get better
Already implemented some of the suggested tactics and it seems to pay off, I have a lot to learn. :)

Just out of curiosity. What ship are you running at the moment BTW?

[Cyberfounder]

Currently I'm in the Benson. 

[RAHJAILARI]

Good ship. You can still do the gunboat stuff BTW. That is what these ships excel at (USN DD), just do it while constantly moving so while capping. Your first concern is to live through the radars. Prepare to run, fire your torps at the nearest smoke, get out of radar range then turn back again and you will have 3 minutes to spot and obliterate their DD in the cap with your guns. Of course, now that you have an idea where their radar ship is position your approach so that he cannot shoot at you without leaving his cover. Perhaps you can approach from the direction of the island he is using for cover so he cannot fire at you directly. This totally works, if the island is high enough and close to cap, also shields you from being spotted even if you get quite close (it is nerve-wrecking sometimes tho). You can use your smoke to break up the contact if you fired your guns and also to cover the approach of your allies nearer to cap. All this depends on what DD you have opposing you thouhg, so change your tactics accordingly. Always remember to recruit a Cruiser to back you up before attempting a cap.

 

Get your Cap trained up-to par and all modules and upgrades installed asap tho. Fully effective CE skill is a must-have. Happy Wabbit Season and keep in mind - Positioning, best defense is to be where the shells are not:

[ForlornSailor]

First: for Benson its a must to have Concealment Expert and the Concealmentmodule. Else you are not competetive.

 

Benson is quite a challenge in the current meta. Also, every round can be very different. You get a T6 to T8 game without CV: you can really roam free. Its basically like a much better version of a Farragut/Mahan with upgraded torpedos.

 

Also, before the round, play special attention to the enemy DD setup. Not only radars but also the enemy DDs. If there is a german DD or a Lo Yang around - he can hurt you bad. You dont want to rush a cap without support in a setup like this. And if you meet those: Dont smoke up and pray they will go away. If its a good player, he will turn his hydro up and use your smoke against you. If there is no friendly near, you cant even see your enemy cuz your smoke it actually helping him.

 

Generally and especially when you are insecure: Benson doesnt need to rush the cap first. You wont lose a game cuz you cap 30-50 sec later. Take your time, spot for your team and try to see, where are the radarships. Also, think about, where those radarships could be hiding - the minimap is your friend here.

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

If anyone could recommend a good, free capturing/recording program I might just make a guide series for high tier US, IJN, and PA dds. Yes, there are already some, but some more might help as well.