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Bratwurst_Bob

Feedback concerning BB rng spread in the current "HE matters" meta

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Alpha Tester
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This is an attempt to give constructive feedback, it is not an angry rant. It's not about who is Op and needs to be nerfed and vice versa.

It's a long post, sorry, but I'm trying to be precise in my observations, bear with me.

I have been away quite a while and been active again for about a month now. I mostly play tier 6-8 and some 9 in between.  Over the weekend I played more Warspite and Bismarck (both not having the -7% spread mod) and in both cases it was nigh impossible to hit a citadel. For the whole weekend and all the matches I could count the citadel hits on one hand. I also got extremely frustrated by the amount of spread, it had me feel more like a victim than a tank. Please let me explain.

 

At the moment we have an increase in HE spamming ships which in combination with IFHE are brutal in the amount of damage they do to superstructures, secondaries and the bow/stern armor. And of course the fires, which just don't stop and burn you to a crisp. This in turn makes it suicidal now to actually push and engage at closer range to negate the horrible spread you have with BBs, Especially my Warspite, who basically is meant to go in and brawl, but also my Bismarck, which I chose to play as a 2ndary monster.


So after many bad matches where I either lingered on the fringe of the action because of the long time it takes to get out of a HE stream or just got whittled down so quick I got off maybe 2 or 3 salvos before I died. And here I got somewhat concerned why I never even got to hit a citadel, which is quite easy to aim at when you are at 8km and parallel to a CA or BB. My shots went all over the place, it was infuriating.

 

So today I went back to Youtube, checked all the relevant videos on correct 'citadeling', read posts, checked the armor layout of ships and finally went into the training room with my Warspite, Bismarck and the Scharnhorst just to check a known very accurate ship as well (Still is, thank god it's not me, got citadels with that ship, still feels good to play). All AI enemies sitting still not shooting at me and I sailed into positions from 6 to 8 to 11km to check why I'm not hitting. 


It is mindblowing! Mindblowing how bad the guns spread even at 6km, a range where I dare say the spread cone should have had narrowed to a margin that would at least increase my chanced of accurate hits, but not with the Warspite or the Bismarck. Single salvos, all aimed at the water line right beneath the smoke stack(s), the shots were all over the length and height of the ships.

I perfectly understand that there is a good reason for the spread, no doubt about it, but I'm talking about a scenario where neither of us is moving, at distances practically a third of the gun range and the spread prevents a citadel (or any other meaningful hit) for about 4-5 shots - a salvo - with nothing to show for or maybe some 1k damage while I then reload for 30s. 

 

And that is where the victim part begins, since the HE is so strong now. There is no reason to engage up close anymore, a specialist like the Bismarck or the Massachusetts is obsolete with the spread cone not narrowing at reduced distances. IF a BB is supposed to engage and force a play he needs to be a threat that needs to be avoided, right now it is not.

 

This is reduced to the Warspite and Bismarck as they are my main and they have 381 & 380mm guns. I haven't played any other BBs in that caliber at this time, so I'm taking those two as examples.

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Alpha Tester
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In my opinion the spread mechanic and the spread cone should be given another look, the game has evolved and the shift in damage output by Cruisers and even Destroyers is considerable now. Not all BBs but some are very dated in their performance and feel forced.

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4 minutes ago, Bratwurst_Bob said:

This is an attempt to give constructive feedback, it is not an angry rant. It's not about who is Op and needs to be nerfed and vice versa.


Yet that is what actually is, even with a decent attempt at hiding it. BBs have no problem whatsoever doing damage, and way more damage than either of the ship types you're complaining about. Nor is HE the biggest threat to BBs, other BBs are.

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HE is not strong. If you get sunk after your third salvo, you are doing it wrong.

I suggest to look at the battle report and look up who and what did the damage to your ship.

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8 minutes ago, Bratwurst_Bob said:

This is an attempt to give constructive feedback, it is not an angry rant. It's not about who is Op and needs to be nerfed and vice versa.

It's a long post, sorry, but I'm trying to be precise in my observations, bear with me.

I have been away quite a while and been active again for about a month now. I mostly play tier 6-8 and some 9 in between.  Over the weekend I played more Warspite and Bismarck (both not having the -7% spread mod) and in both cases it was nigh impossible to hit a citadel. For the whole weekend and all the matches I could count the citadel hits on one hand. I also got extremely frustrated by the amount of spread, it had me feel more like a victim than a tank. Please let me explain.

 

At the moment we have an increase in HE spamming ships which in combination with IFHE are brutal in the amount of damage they do to superstructures, secondaries and the bow/stern armor. And of course the fires, which just don't stop and burn you to a crisp. This in turn makes it suicidal now to actually push and engage at closer range to negate the horrible spread you have with BBs, Especially my Warspite, who basically is meant to go in and brawl, but also my Bismarck, which I chose to play as a 2ndary monster.


So after many bad matches where I either lingered on the fringe of the action because of the long time it takes to get out of a HE stream or just got whittled down so quick I got off maybe 2 or 3 salvos before I died. And here I got somewhat concerned why I never even got to hit a citadel, which is quite easy to aim at when you are at 8km and parallel to a CA or BB. My shots went all over the place, it was infuriating.

 

So today I went back to Youtube, checked all the relevant videos on correct 'citadeling', read posts, checked the armor layout of ships and finally went into the training room with my Warspite, Bismarck and the Scharnhorst just to check a known very accurate ship as well (Still is, thank god it's not me, got citadels with that ship, still feels good to play). All AI enemies sitting still not shooting at me and I sailed into positions from 6 to 8 to 11km to check why I'm not hitting. 


It is mindblowing! Mindblowing how bad the guns spread even at 6km, a range where I dare say the spread cone should have had narrowed to a margin that would at least increase my chanced of accurate hits, but not with the Warspite or the Bismarck. Single salvos, all aimed at the water line right beneath the smoke stack(s), the shots were all over the length and height of the ships.

I perfectly understand that there is a good reason for the spread, no doubt about it, but I'm talking about a scenario where neither of us is moving, at distances practically a third of the gun range and the spread prevents a citadel (or any other meaningful hit) for about 4-5 shots - a salvo - with nothing to show for or maybe some 1k damage while I then reload for 30s. 

 

And that is where the victim part begins, since the HE is so strong now. There is no reason to engage up close anymore, a specialist like the Bismarck or the Massachusetts is obsolete with the spread cone not narrowing at reduced distances. IF a BB is supposed to engage and force a play he needs to be a threat that needs to be avoided, right now it is not.

 

This is reduced to the Warspite and Bismarck as they are my main and they have 381 & 380mm guns. I haven't played any other BBs in that caliber at this time, so I'm taking those two as examples.

pls can you explain how they still top the DMG charts?

Izrezak.PNG

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13 minutes ago, AgarwaenME said:


Yet that is what actually is, even with a decent attempt at hiding it. BBs have no problem whatsoever doing damage, and way more damage than either of the ship types you're complaining about. Nor is HE the biggest threat to BBs, other BBs are.

Its funny that players don't realize that. They take a bit of HE dmg and massive BB AP dmg, then goes on to blame the HE for being the big dmg dealer when in reality they got wrecked by AP. 

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23 minutes ago, veslingr said:

pls can you explain how they still top the DMG charts?

Izrezak.PNG

Except that it's actually the carriers that are topping the damage charts.

And when looking at the #1 spot, it's a cruiser (though seemingly with few battles).

The only BB that tops CVs is a BB that does mostly fire damage, which can be healed back.

 

Btw, how can both tier 10 CVs have such low win rate?

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5 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Btw, how can both tier 10 CVs have such low win rate?

CV can carry, so winrate is concentrated on few players.

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5 minutes ago, _ramrus_ said:

CV can carry, so winrate is concentrated on few players.

So if player one played 5000 games in the USS Makeitup with an average winrate of 45% and player two played 1 battle in the USS Makeitup with an average winrage (lol) of 100%, the 100% and 45% have the same weight when taking these averages?

 

Imo this seems to scew results, if this is how it's measured :cap_hmm:

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8 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Imo this seems to scew results, if this is how it's measured :cap_hmm:

No, all results are not counted.

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1 hour ago, Bratwurst_Bob said:

And that is where the victim part begins, since the HE is so strong now.

 

Bwahahahahaha

HE has been nerfed so hard it barely even counts as a threat to BBs if you can manage DCP, repair, positioning and concealment correctly. Saying "HE is so strong now" is a hilarious joke at best.

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Well, considering BBs have the highest average damage in the game. (disregarding certain CVs) I don't think that they really need any buffs, they're more than capable of blowing most ships out of the water in one or two salvos, and are the tankiest ships class...

I don't think a buff is necessary.

 

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46 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Except that it's actually the carriers that are topping the damage charts.

And when looking at the #1 spot, it's a cruiser (though seemingly with few battles).

The only BB that tops CVs is a BB that does mostly fire damage, which can be healed back.

 

Btw, how can both tier 10 CVs have such low win rate?

 

Well, the conq is ahead of both t10 CVs, with the rest only a smidgen behind them and everything else below (and in some cases, far below).

 

The Salem is a ship that's just not available in any way for regular players yet, so the few battles you see are from testers and really not relevant whatsoever, as are the wooster rather lacking in relevance since again, only people who spent a ton of fxp are going to have it already.

 

As for win rates, the stats of people who hide theirs obviously can't be added to those databases, thus totals are higher or lower than 50%.

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53 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Btw, how can both tier 10 CVs have such low win rate?

Reason #1: CVs are mirrored and it's kown that MM favours putting ships from the same nation and class against each other whenever possible.

 

Reason #2: There are only 2 silver lines. Things are a bit different at T7-8 where premium CVs exist.

 

Reason #3: Even if extremely rare nowadays, there are still draws which are counted as a no-win for both.

 

The first and second reasons account for 2 things: firstly, their WR will tend towards 50% since they are mainly faced against the same nation, hence in an scenario where draws are impossible for one to win the other one loses; secondly, the divergence in WR between Hakuryu and Midway, showing that the former is/was at a slight performance advantage above the latter (when MM has to face them off instead of making Midway vs. Midway or Hakuryu vs. Hakuryu battles). The third reason makes the fact for their WR below 50%.

 

Salute.

 

P.S.: Also what AgarwaenME said about hidden stats in his previous comment.

 

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Warspite and Bismarck, eh...

2 hours ago, Bratwurst_Bob said:

I have been away quite a while and been active again for about a month now. I mostly play tier 6-8 and some 9 in between.  Over the weekend I played more Warspite and Bismarck (both not having the -7% spread mod) and in both cases it was nigh impossible to hit a citadel.

Why Your secondaries are not going to be reliable damage dealers. Main battery is. Buff your main battery, not your secondaries.not on Warspite? What else would you use? AA mod? The AA isn't very good. Secondary mod?

3 hours ago, Bratwurst_Bob said:

This in turn makes it suicidal now to actually push and engage at closer range to negate the horrible spread you have with BBs, Especially my Warspite, who basically is meant to go in and brawl, but also my Bismarck, which I chose to play as a 2ndary monster.

Warspite being a brawler? Dunno about you, but with 25 mm armour all over, accurate guns and a turret traverse that got buffed but still is not good, this ship is more mid-range than anything. There's little point in brawling with this ship. Maybe once upon a time, before they brougt out the Germans...

3 hours ago, Bratwurst_Bob said:

And that is where the victim part begins, since the HE is so strong now. There is no reason to engage up close anymore, a specialist like the Bismarck or the Massachusetts is obsolete with the spread cone not narrowing at reduced distances. IF a BB is supposed to engage and force a play he needs to be a threat that needs to be avoided, right now it is not.

This "I cannot push or get burned to a crisp" mentality is practically what allows the new cruisers to get away with their antics, because if there is one thing they cannot deal with, it is their position getting pushed. If you pressure a Nürnberg, a Yorck or even an Atlanta that tries to camp an island, they can give you a faceful of torps. Dallas, Helena, Cleveland, etc, cannot. They can only try to dakka you down with HE, which only works if they can shoot at you for minutes without any counter. In a straight up duel, they get sunk, a Bismarck survives. Not in the least because the Bismarck has 50 mm deck armour that does not get penned, belt armour up to the deck that does not get HE penned, secondaries with 11.3 km range that hurt these thin-skinned cruisers (unless of course you are too afraid to get close enough and rather stay back not hitting crap with the 38 cm guns, because they aren't good for that), a massive hp advantage and a repair party. Yes, they can pen bow and superstructure, but at some point these get saturated and the amount of damage they deal compared to your hp pool shouldn't be higher than the percentage of hp you shave off them with your AP, even when not landing citadels.

 

And Massachusetts is even worse for these cruisers, because all its secondaries hurt.

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3 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Except that it's actually the carriers that are topping the damage charts.

And when looking at the #1 spot, it's a cruiser (though seemingly with few battles).

The only BB that tops CVs is a BB that does mostly fire damage, which can be healed back.

 

Btw, how can both tier 10 CVs have such low win rate?

sorrry mate but first is BBS, in top 10 there are 6 BBs....so yeah..they dominate

p.s.

200 games is just to low sample..also it is DM (somebody sayed nerfed ones) so it is the layers and not the ship

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3 hours ago, Bratwurst_Bob said:

(..)

Picture of OP lying next to a rock:

potato+or+rock.jpg

 

Learn to properly use dmg-con (don't put out the 1st fire) and heal, use "premium" versions of those. Yes, BB accuracy is straight up garbage at best of times, but it's still like 10 times better than it was in reality

 

 

3 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Btw, how can both tier 10 CVs have such low win rate?

Bcuz it's stats taken from WoWS Numbers

  • Only accounts "looked at" on their site are counted in, not actual overall statistics
    • Who even knows when some of those have been last "refereshed" to update their info
    • Easily might be the case that "number of below average profiles > number of above average profiles"
  • It's "lifetime" stats, so it includes everything from the start of the game up until nowdays
    • There was a time when CVs didn't have mirrored MM
    • There was a time when draws (effectively loss for both teams) weren't that rare

 

This is much better for actual stats:

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/

 

1st quarter of 2018 on EU server t10 CVs were:

  • Hakuryu
    • 32 191 battles
    • 45.26% WR
  • Midway
    • 94 843 battles
    • 51.9% WR

Also Midways WR is dragged down massively bcuz in 31 326 games (that's 62652 Midways) were fighting Midway vs Midway guaranteeing a 50% sum outcome

 

Similarly 2nd quarter:

  • Hakuryu
    • 24 175 battles
    • 48.74% WR
  • Midway
    • 64 599 battles
    • 50.81% WR

Again - Midways are dragged to 50% bcuz they mostly have played vs other Midways

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Both Salem and Worcester are totally irrelevant statistically wise. Most Worcester players (including me) are very experienced and knew exactly what to do with that ship even before it got released.

As for Salem, 200 battles... Salem is a DM with some things a bit tweaked here and there, and frankly it is a bit weaker than DM. So check DM stats instead to see where it stands server wise.

 

Frankly, the only BB line that suffers from HE spamming are the French. They have 32mm all over and no super heal like the British. On the other hands their guns are hella strong and the ships themselves are fast. Also they tank AP very well, so that's that. Good positioning does the rest.

 

Every other BBs just don't care as long as they are managing their DCP, heal and positioning correctly. A single ship spamming HE would take forever to kill him wihtout support.

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44 minutes ago, veslingr said:

sorrry mate but first is BBS, in top 10 there are 6 BBs....so yeah..they dominate

p.s.

200 games is just to low sample..also it is DM (somebody sayed nerfed ones) so it is the layers and not the ship

Whats BBS?

In top 10, yes, but that wasn't what you said.

CVs are in the top and only 1 BB slightly above and 1 BB slightly below. All other BBs are 10k dmg below or even lower.

 

I suppose you just don't like my point of view because of this:

veslingr.thumb.jpg.ea53ccbe8b00cff6e0f7ce15b3abb8c4.jpg

Yes that's you. A reroll account with padding of CV play. Is this why you critisize me? So CV gameplay isn't critisized anymore?

Good thing the CV rework is coming :Smile_Default:

 

And besides, the average tier 10 CV damage is higher then the average tier 10 BB damage, so it seems obvious that CV is in fact, topping this chart of yours.

 

Also, since cruisers are probably doing more damage vs DDs, wouldn't it make sense for them to have lower average damage compared to BBs? BBs's main target seem to be more cruisers (out in the open mostly) and other BBs.

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I'm not a BB main, in fact I only really play the Scharnhorst and the North Cal, but I can't say I've noticed too many problems with HE spam, other than helping me get the Dreadnought and Fireproof achievements. I still tend to die to AP as I can't help pushing in even when unsupported. 

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3 hours ago, _ramrus_ said:

No, all results are not counted.

But some results have to be counted, or there'd be nothing left to count. Since there are stats it's evident that at least some of the stats are counted. But my question was, are all stats counted?

 

This question has however already been answered (at least partially) due to the game being different in old times (no mirrored CV MM) and some stats being hidden.

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10 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Whats BBS?

In top 10, yes, but that wasn't what you said.

CVs are in the top and only 1 BB slightly above and 1 BB slightly below. All other BBs are 10k dmg below or even lower.

 

I suppose you just don't like my point of view because of this:

veslingr.thumb.jpg.ea53ccbe8b00cff6e0f7ce15b3abb8c4.jpg

Yes that's you. A reroll account with padding of CV play. Is this why you critisize me? So CV gameplay isn't critisized anymore?

Good thing the CV rework is coming :Smile_Default:

 

And besides, the average tier 10 CV damage is higher then the average tier 10 BB damage, so it seems obvious that CV is in fact, topping this chart of yours.

 

Also, since cruisers are probably doing more damage vs DDs, wouldn't it make sense for them to have lower average damage compared to BBs? BBs's main target seem to be more cruisers (out in the open mostly) and other BBs.

my main account is in some problem with the law (aka temporarry forum ban) :)

 

and i still can not see your point......now we can argue who is on top of the dmg...but we can agree it is close call between BBs and CVs....and in fact it shows Bbs have no problem with dmg department, translating their dispersion is ok.

 

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19 hours ago, Estaca_de_Bares said:

Reason #1: CVs are mirrored and it's kown that MM favours putting ships from the same nation and class against each other whenever possible.

 

Reason #2: There are only 2 silver lines. Things are a bit different at T7-8 where premium CVs exist.

 

Reason #3: Even if extremely rare nowadays, there are still draws which are counted as a no-win for both.

 

The first and second reasons account for 2 things: firstly, their WR will tend towards 50% since they are mainly faced against the same nation, hence in an scenario where draws are impossible for one to win the other one loses; secondly, the divergence in WR between Hakuryu and Midway, showing that the former is/was at a slight performance advantage above the latter (when MM has to face them off instead of making Midway vs. Midway or Hakuryu vs. Hakuryu battles). The third reason makes the fact for their WR below 50%.

 

Salute.

 

P.S.: Also what AgarwaenME said about hidden stats in his previous comment.

 

Reason #1 was the reason for me to ask why the average winrate was so low.

Reason #2 seems obvious to me, but I don't know what your point is except for stating something that is kinda obvious to me anyway.

Reason #3 is a good one, though I didn't consider draws could be way more common in the old days.

I knew about draws being counted as losses, but to me it wouldn't explain why it is so much below 50% average.

 

16 hours ago, veslingr said:

my main account is in some problem with the law (aka temporarry forum ban) :)

 

and i still can not see your point......now we can argue who is on top of the dmg...but we can agree it is close call between BBs and CVs....and in fact it shows Bbs have no problem with dmg department, translating their dispersion is ok.

 

There isn't much to argue about the top of the average damage chart, it's CVs that are leading the pack here :Smile_great:

Your point wasn't to agree that it's supposedly a close call between BB and CV, your point was a question:

Quote

pls can you explain how they still top the DMG charts?

I explained this.

 

How is this not understandable to you? And if your real account has a forum ban, didn't you get one for a good reason?

 

The OP didn't specifically adress BBs underperforming by raw damage, it was more about the HE spamming mechanic and how it is presenting itself compared to how it used to be.

 

And besides, the raw damage figures give a bit a skewed result due to cruisers doing more damage vs destroyers then battleships do, as said earlier.

ANd the Bismarck does have terrible accuracy, I kinda find it hard to hit anything with it (currently grinding Bismarck, though I'm considering quitting that line for now, mostly due to its poor accuracy).

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Don't get me wrong but if you can't hit citadels on broadside targets (especially cruisers) consistently then it is you aiming wrong.

Yes sometimes you get those salvos where every shell decides to go somewhere else then where you aimed but you also have those shots where that random spread leads to a citadel. 

 

BBs are fine and don't need any buffs. I would even prefer a little nerf (higher citadels) on the High tier BBs.

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12 minutes ago, SriverFX said:

Don't get me wrong but if you can't hit citadels on broadside targets (especially cruisers) consistently then it is you aiming wrong.

Yes sometimes you get those salvos where every shell decides to go somewhere else then where you aimed but you also have those shots where that random spread leads to a citadel. 

 

BBs are fine and don't need any buffs. I would even prefer a little nerf (higher citadels) on the High tier BBs.

Yeah, sure...

You realise that this game is pure luck, right? It's called RNG. You can be a sniper irl but if you are unlucky you won't do sh*t here. RNG isn't equalises itself out. It doesn't mean that if you had 1 bad shot you'll have 1 good, it's random. It means you can have terrible dispersion x+1 times and have 1 good only because it is random and not balanced.

 

Now moving on. When he talks about BBs you all immediately think about Yamato and Montana. Yeah, those ships are strong and don't need buffs. But there are other ships also. For example, FdG and Izumo both are weak compared to their enemies. And we can talk about Monarch. These are just examples. So yes, there are some certain ships that needs some love (Myogi, member? I member!) but not the whole class.

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