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Uglesett

Suggestion: Alternative free xp conversion

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Now, I don't spend doubloons converting exp from premiums/elite ships to free exp. It's just not worth it to me. But at the same time, it feels a bit pointless to have all that exp just sitting there on my premium ships without having any use.

 

So, I have the following proposal: Allow converting premium ship exp/elite ship exp to free exp at a cost of most of it. Say, you can convert your exp from premium ship to free exp by a factor of 10% (So if you convert 100k xp, you get 10k free exp). For elite ships, the rate should be lower (simply to have an extra incentive to buy premiums), say 5%. Or 5% and 2.5%. Something like that, I'm basically just pulling numbers out of a hat.

 

To handle the obvious counter argument: "But WG are never going to do that because they'll lose money on doubloon sales". Well, maybe a bit. But I don't think it's going to make that much of a difference.

 

For one thing, the people who already spend doubloons because they want free exp, and they want it now... well, they're probably going to keep doing that. This is a bone they can throw out for those who wouldn't bother to use doubloons for free exp anyway.

 

Secondly, while it may have a small impact on doubloon sales for converting exp, it's also going to make premiums more attractive.

 

And, it might make the game just that little bit more attractive for the pure f2p crowd. And let's face it, any f2p game needs a healthy player base of non-paying players, just so that there's actually someone there for the spenders to play with.

 

(Ping @Crysantos, @MrConway)

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except you already have a built-in "conversion" rate of 5% when you earn the XP in the first place. Doubling or tripling that? yeah nope, not gonna happen.

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It'd be nice for there to be something to do with all of it, but there is no way in hell they're ever going to allow it to be used for something when people converting it for doubloons is such a huge source of income for them. It'd do nothing but hurt their profits.

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34 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

Now, I don't spend doubloons converting exp from premiums/elite ships to free exp. It's just not worth it to me. But at the same time, it feels a bit pointless to have all that exp just sitting there on my premium ships without having any use.

@Crysantos@MrConway

I can't delete the links because forum doesn't allow me for some reason...

 

My question to OP: What would you do with your Free XP?

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2 minutes ago, FishDogFoodShack said:

It'd be nice for there to be something to do with all of it, but there is no way in hell they're ever going to allow it to be used for something when people converting it for doubloons is such a huge source of income for them. It'd do nothing but hurt their profits.

I mentioned this in the first post, as I said, I'm not sure it'll make that much of a difference. At least not if you at the same time give people an extra incentive to buy and play premium ships.

 

(And I generally think spending money on something nice and shiny that you can take directly into battles feels more rewarding for the customer than spending currency on another type of currency that can be used to convert a third type of currency...)

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The closest vaguely possible version of this I could see is an inferior conversion (so you get only some % of invested XP) paid for in some other currency than doublons. Maybe credits. Maybe coal (since we already have Missouri for coal and stuff). Maybe something else entirely (there are some strange currencies planned for the future). But a free conversion? Yeah, dream on...

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6 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

That would be just free Free XP...

Yes. But it would be far less Free XP than you could get if you paid for it.

 

2 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

I can't delete the links because forum doesn't allow me for some reason...

 

My question to OP: What would you do with your Free XP?

The same thing I do with the Free XP I earn normally... Buy ships, research the occasional upgrade... stuff like that.

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It would be a lot.

Without looking I am quite sure that a 10:1 conversion would result in 200 to 300k Free XP for me.

If this was a permanent feature, people would play premiums like mad and conversion for doubloons would become a rare thing.

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Just now, ColonelPete said:

It would be a lot.

Without looking I am quite sure that a 10:1 conversion would result in 200 to 300k Free XP for me.

If this was a permanent feature, people would play premiums like mad and conversion for doubloons would become a rare thing.

Don't get too hung up on the numbers, as I said they are just examples. 

 

But ok, say you get 200-300k free exp if you convert everything you have now.

 

How much is that compared to what  you've already gotten just from playing the game?

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17 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

Yes. But it would be far less Free XP than you could get if you paid for it.

 

The same thing I do with the Free XP I earn normally... Buy ships, research the occasional upgrade... stuff like that.

So, basically you'd quicken up the grind. I think WG is trying to keep the grind at a certain, reasonable point - F2P-players have to play more to progress, P2P-players pay to quicken the grind. This is only changing the balance how fast you progress. If WG thought the grind was unbalanced - taking too long, they could change it in other ways. I wouldn't mind seeing an alternate conversion, but I don't see it happening for reasons above + loss of some money.

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I have around 13+ million Elite XP.

The 2-3 milion on premium ships was a conservative estimate. Could be some more.

Over the years I got around 3 million Free XP by playing the game.

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Good idea, but it will never happen sadly enough.

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20 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

So, basically you'd quicken up the grind. I think WG is trying to keep the grind at a certain, reasonable point - F2P-players have to play more to progress, P2P-players pay to quicken the grind. This is only changing the balance how fast you progress. If WG thought the grind was unbalanced - taking too long, they could change it in other ways. I wouldn't mind seeing an alternate conversion, but I don't see it happening for reasons above + loss of some money.

Well, these are the kinds of things that I think WG need to rethink.

 

For one thing, judging by some other threads I've seen here, WoWS has a serious problem with player retention rate. And F2P economies basically revolve around having a relatively small base of players who keep paying and funding the continued development, with a larger base of free players who make sure that the guys willing to pay actually have someone to play against. One of the most important things for any F2P game is to have a large enough player base to make it attractive for the paying players to stick with the game.

 

Now, WoWS is probably always going to be something of a niche game, but I see two aspects hurting the long-term retention of new players. One is the general lack of information when you're fresh. There are a lot of game mechanics that aren't that difficult to deal with if you know them, but aren't well explained unless you look for them. The new youtube series is a good start, but they also need to make sure that players are made aware that that information is out there (and not only right now while they're making the series, but also for players who enter the game a few months from now).

 

The second aspect is that the game feels over-monetized. There's a fine balance between making something that you'd like to pay for, and making mechanics that seem like the developer is just trying to exploit you. Paying for stuff like ships in WoWS (or heroes and skins in Heroes of the Storm etc. - basically anything that feels like new content) generally feels okay to the player. 

 

But then there are the mechanisms that just feel like you're being fleeced, and I'd say essentially all of the nickle-and-dime doubloon payments fall in that category. At least in the cases where there are no free-but-slower alternatives. And a game that feels like it tries to always get cash from you.... well, that tends to push away players.

 

(And yes, I know I talk a lot about subjective stuff and feelings here.... but let's be honest with ourselves. Anyone who claims economics is about rational actors acting in their own enlightened self interest.... are full of BS. Economics are all about feelings and gut reactions, and humans are not rational actors.)

 

And as for the grind... well, you have to remember that the current progression was somewhat set when there were only two navies in the game. There's a lot more there now, and what felt like a reasonable grind before can feel utterly unsurmountable for a new player entering now who wants to at least get a little taste of everything in the buffet before they die of old age.

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I have an idea.

Introduce a new currency, Salt.

You can collect salt only in random battles, conditions are:

- 1st of the losing team;

- More xp than 75% of the winning team;

 

The above will give you:

- An achievement called "Here is the stake, you already have the salt".

- A random amount of salt.

 

Salt can be used to convert ship XP into fXP.

 

:Smile_glasses:

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37 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

(And yes, I know I talk a lot about subjective stuff and feelings here.... but let's be honest with ourselves. Anyone who claims economics is about rational actors acting in their own enlightened self interest.... are full of BS. Economics are all about feelings and gut reactions, and humans are not rational actors.)

 

And as for the grind... well, you have to remember that the current progression was somewhat set when there were only two navies in the game. There's a lot more there now, and what felt like a reasonable grind before can feel utterly unsurmountable for a new player entering now who wants to at least get a little taste of everything in the buffet before they die of old age.

You may be right, or wrong. I don't know. I don't share your feelings about the economy. If WG decides to go on your feelings about lowering the grind by changing the Free XP acquirement, and perhaps solve the player retention issue, it's fine. Maybe it will work, I have too little knowledge about this and only my feelings to go on.

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19 hours ago, xXx_Blogis_xXx said:

oh good , would love to convert my 70M ship xp

The question is... would it make any real difference for you?

 

There's a general problem with pretty much all multiplayer games that have some sort of progression system... and that is that you're going to have some players that started out early and have just played the game to death and have pretty much everything (and will therefore be able to pretty much get all new content you release on day one).

 

You just can't consider those few players when you look at the design for a progression system. Designing something that still gives those players something to grind for is just going to make the game seem unsurmountable to anyone who comes in late or just doesn't have that amount of time to spend. Sure, there should always be some slow rewards there for the players who spend a lot of time, but at some point you just have to acknowledge that there's only so much grind you can put into a game.

 

I mean, just looking at someone like flambass who has 500 million credits or something on his account... it would make absolutely zero difference if he had twice that.

 

20 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

You may be right, or wrong. I don't know. I don't share your feelings about the economy.

Welll... no offense, but you're coming from the perspective of having played five times as many battles as me. Somehow, I suspect you don't really have to concern yourself that much with the economy :cap_hmm:

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1 hour ago, Uglesett said:

Welll... no offense, but you're coming from the perspective of having played five times as many battles as me. Somehow, I suspect you don't really have to concern yourself that much with the economy :cap_hmm:

You're right. When you've played as much as me, you kind of lose all concerns. Just keep grinding and you'll be fine :cap_haloween:

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I'd agree with @eliastion about maybe converting via other currencies, but not for "free". I'm hoping for some economy changes to better integrate Steel and Coal with Doubloons and Credits, so you'd have something like Doubloons = Stuff WG want you to pay for, Steel = Stuff you have to be good to get (even grinding in Ranked requires "not abysmal"), Coal = Stuff you can earn, but only buy sometimes or have to save for, and Credits = Stuff for routine expenses. So in that sort of model you'd have earning Free-XP by earning it as the most work, converting XP to Free-XP with doubloons as the most expensive, and say a 5-1 conversion rate with coal as the intermediate option. Or some other ratio, depending on how the coal economy shakes out, though 5-1 has the advantage of five actually dividing into both 25 and 35. 

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7 hours ago, Uglesett said:

Welll... no offense, but you're coming from the perspective of having played five times as many battles as me. Somehow, I suspect you don't really have to concern yourself that much with the economy :cap_hmm:

I dont have that many games played, and still not worried about economics.

 

You dont seem interested in investing anything in this particular hobby so, why should WG cater for you any?

 

Your "cant consider those few players" its also quite funny. So WG should disregard the paying customers, to start favoring the freeloaders...that makes somehow less sense that the stunts WG pulls sometimes so, I dont think so?

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12 hours ago, Juanx said:

You dont seem interested in investing anything in this particular hobby so, why should WG cater for you any?

You could try actually reading what I write before you reply, you know.

 

EDIT: Actually, I want to address this a bit more now that I think of it.

 

For one thing, what do you consider "investing" in the game? Spending money? Because, while it's a bit beside the point, I've certainly done that. You just need to take a look at the premium ships played in my profile to realize that. As I said, I definitely think WG asking for money for cool ships feels a lot less exploitative than them asking for money to convert one in-game currency into another in-game currency. It's just a more friendly business model.

 

Secondly.... the free to players also invest in the game. They invest their time. They are there, keeping the game alive, so that the players that generate income actually have someone to play against. That's important. It is in fact the most important aspect of any free to play multiplayer title: It has to be attractive enough to non-paying players that they'll stick around and give the paying players a living game.

 

Quote

Your "cant consider those few players" its also quite funny. So WG should disregard the paying customers, to start favoring the freeloaders...that makes somehow less sense that the stunts WG pulls sometimes so, I dont think so?

Le sigh. Yeah, it would be nice if people read what I wrote.

 

Read the rest of the paragraph you're quoting. Nowhere in that do I make distinction between paying and non-paying players. I'm saying that the small percentage of players who have played enough to have basically everything, can't be the dimensioning factor for the progression system. They aren't necessarily paying players. Heck, a lot of them have probably earned enough free exp that they never need to convert for doubloons anyway.

 

17 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

You're right. When you've played as much as me, you kind of lose all concerns. Just keep grinding and you'll be fine :cap_haloween:

Probably. But that's the thing, economic models in this sort of game are a tricky thing. The reward system need to be... well, rewarding enough that enough people keep grinding, instead of just dropping the game. As I said, you need to have enough of a player base of free players that the game's still attractive to people who want to play and pay for it (by giving them someone to play against).

 

I worry that WG are trying too hard to push the relatively small player base they have into keeping their servers alive by pushing "special" event after event, instead of thinking about how they can grow their player base to have consistently decent player numbers. Constantly having promotional events running can get fatiguing on the player base.

 

Overall, I think giving players long-term goals that feel a little less long-term, and relying a bit less on promo events to make players play will make the game healthier. Without necessarily hurting their income.

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You guys are missing thr point. And the point is that it is just lying around doing nothing. To the guy with 70M, are you going to change it with dubloons?

 

Good luck 2M dubloon change.

 

We could use an alternative change. For anything. Credits, coal, captain xp, camos, flags. Anything. Otherwise its just pointless number.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Uglesett said:

Probably. But that's the thing, economic models in this sort of game are a tricky thing. The reward system need to be... well, rewarding enough that enough people keep grinding, instead of just dropping the game. As I said, you need to have enough of a player base of free players that the game's still attractive to people who want to play and pay for it (by giving them someone to play against).

 

I worry that WG are trying too hard to push the relatively small player base they have into keeping their servers alive by pushing "special" event after event, instead of thinking about how they can grow their player base to have consistently decent player numbers. Constantly having promotional events running can get fatiguing on the player base.

 

Overall, I think giving players long-term goals that feel a little less long-term, and relying a bit less on promo events to make players play will make the game healthier. Without necessarily hurting their income.

Well, I agree, they are tricky things. Seems the game has been fun enough and rewarding enough for me to keep playing. Does WG want more people to start and keep playing the game, and do they want more people to spend money on the game? Of course. Is there a balance to be found between keeping the game challenging enough for the 'completionists' and not too grindy for the F2P causal players?

You're looking at the game form the F2P causal player's perspective (perhaps someone a bit impatient too). Changing the economy to make the game less grindy would make the progress faster for most players, but it's not a given that the game would have better retention and I doubt 'feelings' are enough to make WG change their ingame economy. I suspect they keep very close track of all data regarding the ingame economy, player retention and players willingness to spend money on the game. Not just from WoWs, but from their other titles too.

 

edit: One thing that has kept me playing the game is that I actually enjoy playing it. Grinding is always secondary. I've got plenty of lines to 'grind' if I wanted to, but if the ships doesn't appeal to me, why play them? I enjoy some ships more than other and therefore play them more. Why do you grind? What is your end goal that needs to be reached so fast?

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Maybe it has aleady been said, but maybe allow free xp to be converted to coal at a 100 xp for 20 coal ratio ( pulling these out of my [edited]) so people with a lot of free xp can convert it to coal so they can get Salem faster or another ship only available for coal in the arsenal?

 

Don't know for sure if it already exists, too lazy to check

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