Rework of CVs

[LongJohn_]

6 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

That's why I'm so hyped by the Le Terrible. It'll be a T8 Khaba great flanker 

Well I love my Kiev for certain reasons. Guns are great, stealth is decent even for capping if enemy DDs arent contesting and 8km torps can cause nasty surprices to people chasing you down.

 

Edit: And even radars arent that bad because you are not a stealthy ship anyway and your main purpose is to push full speed ahead around the map left mouse button glued down and your hair in fire.

[LongJohn_]

1 minute ago, MacArthur92 said:

Ryujo and Hiryu have 2 DB squads . Saipan is less a problem having less torps and bombs. But Kaga.... Omg man this 12 super fast torps . Once I got hit, survived. Was on less than 2 k hp. Then bombs came , 850 hp took but 2 fire started .... 15 sec to repair wasn't enough 

 

Yep but good Saipans then again control the airspace quite well and while doing that cap spot DDs without problems.

[JOVA1982]

For nearly 2 years straight almost every patch has had either direct or indirect CV nerf so far.
usually it has been AA buff to some certain ship or plane hp nerf of some certain ship. excluding GZ balancing and rebalancing.
Anyone remember the very early days when you might have seen 2 T10 CV's on same team, 4 of them on the map at the same time... Triple bogue division anyone? Yeah, They were too strong back then.

Now I used to play CV a lot bit over a year ago. Lexington with strike loadout (0/1/3) was my favorite ship in game.
I concider myself fairly good CV player, borderline unicum in CV would suggest that I'm at least better than average.

Now I heard suggestions that CV "should" be removed.
I have to say that my favourite targets were BB's of the opposing team. you kno the ones I'm talking about, Far from everyone else, usually 6-10 km behind their cruisers. I bet you know that kind of players. and you most likely agree that they desrve it, sitting in 20+km and being useless. CV is the hard counter for those... Unless it happens to be Montana, or any other US BB with AA spec. gotta waste two strikes on it.
Trying to spot enemy DD's, unfortunately there tends to be Cleveland, Minotaur, Des Moines, Hindenburg, Iowa, or something close by. So let's not spot that DD, unless he's ed up and is in fact alone. Oh yeah, unless it's AA spec Udaloy Grozevoi, Gearing, or Fletcher... or AA specced Akizuki who managed to lay big smoke and I missed my blind drop.
Going near cruiser? Well if we are talking mid tiers and I happen to be in Saipan I might pull it off. Unless it had defensive fire

 

I personally don't even bother with def AA anymore because seeing CV is so unlikely nowdays, so  dont have def AA if I can slot a hydro instead.
That AA might have saved me, or some other ship maybe in 1 out of 20 games, Hydro saves me in 1 out of 4 games.

Only current issue with CV's is the massive skill difference of players, and I mean in every ship class.
I have had games where I have killed 8 ships with that Lexington I mentioned earlier. Enemy team just played poorly, each and every single one of them.
How ever on that same Lexington I had games where I could see how poorly the enemy team plays, but the enemy Shokaku completely shut me down, which led to my side losing.
Also we cannot forget the games where I had 4 kills 200k damage done, and yet we lost because enemy CV was terrible, but their team played well, and my team was terrible.

Fact is, while GZ has it's balance issues, every other CV (So far) is reasonably well balanced (Saipan maybe bit OP) but the players who play them... They are anything but balanced.

[Aragathor]

On 9/15/2018 at 3:35 AM, JOVA1982 said:

For nearly 2 years straight almost every patch has had either direct or indirect CV nerf so far.
usually it has been AA buff to some certain ship or plane hp nerf of some certain ship. excluding GZ balancing and rebalancing.
Anyone remember the very early days when you might have seen 2 T10 CV's on same team, 4 of them on the map at the same time... Triple bogue division anyone? Yeah, They were too strong back then.

Now I used to play CV a lot bit over a year ago. Lexington with strike loadout (0/1/3) was my favorite ship in game.
I concider myself fairly good CV player, borderline unicum in CV would suggest that I'm at least better than average.

Now I heard suggestions that CV "should" be removed.
I have to say that my favourite targets were BB's of the opposing team. you kno the ones I'm talking about, Far from everyone else, usually 6-10 km behind their cruisers. I bet you know that kind of players. and you most likely agree that they desrve it, sitting in 20+km and being useless. CV is the hard counter for those... Unless it happens to be Montana, or any other US BB with AA spec. gotta waste two strikes on it.
Trying to spot enemy DD's, unfortunately there tends to be Cleveland, Minotaur, Des Moines, Hindenburg, Iowa, or something close by. So let's not spot that DD, unless he's ed up and is in fact alone. Oh yeah, unless it's AA spec Udaloy Grozevoi, Gearing, or Fletcher... or AA specced Akizuki who managed to lay big smoke and I missed my blind drop.
Going near cruiser? Well if we are talking mid tiers and I happen to be in Saipan I might pull it off. Unless it had defensive fire

 

I personally don't even bother with def AA anymore because seeing CV is so unlikely nowdays, so  dont have def AA if I can slot a hydro instead.
That AA might have saved me, or some other ship maybe in 1 out of 20 games, Hydro saves me in 1 out of 4 games.

Only current issue with CV's is the massive skill difference of players, and I mean in every ship class.
I have had games where I have killed 8 ships with that Lexington I mentioned earlier. Enemy team just played poorly, each and every single one of them.
How ever on that same Lexington I had games where I could see how poorly the enemy team plays, but the enemy Shokaku completely shut me down, which led to my side losing.
Also we cannot forget the games where I had 4 kills 200k damage done, and yet we lost because enemy CV was terrible, but their team played well, and my team was terrible.

Fact is, while GZ has it's balance issues, every other CV (So far) is reasonably well balanced (Saipan maybe bit OP) but the players who play them... They are anything but balanced.

 

I think this is the problem with CVs, the skill difference between players can lead to situations in which 1 player determines the game for the remaining 23. This leads to frustration all around.

I wouldn't want to be in WGs shoes in dealing with the CV issue. Because whatever they do they are going to anger and lose some customers. They also can't sit on their hands and pretend everything is ok.

To be honest, the change they presented, is a good way to go. Needs a lot of balancing, to be sure, but the idea fits the arcade action of the other ships. The AA balance you mentioned will also be dealt with.

And maybe, just maybe, the changes will either make potatoes potate less or move away from CVs. And hopefully get people who want to play CVs but didn't get too comfy with RTS-style controls into them.

[MadGunna]

I'm not a big fan of the reworked carriers. The strategic nature of the type makes it appealing and it is not like artillery in World of Tanks at all - this class takes actual skill to master and it rewards that mastery as well. That reward is why it is such fun. I would much rather they push the skill ceiling for others ships up than pushing the ceiling for CV's down. /5cts

[Aragathor]

1 hour ago, MadGunna said:

I would much rather they push the skill ceiling for others ships up than pushing the ceiling for CV's down. /5cts

And how would this change the discrepancy between CV players and the current issues raised by the player base? The answer is, it wouldn't.

[MadGunna]

2 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

And how would this change the discrepancy between CV players and the current issues raised by the player base? The answer is, it wouldn't.

The increased skill ceiling is why CV's have such a massive impact on the game as it stands and why they dominate win-ratios. A skilled player can influence far more of the match in a CV than in any other ship type purely based on both their reach AND the fact the damage output scales vastly more with skill level.

 

If you give BB's the ability to influence a match based on their own skilled inputs alone and less on RNG deciding when their shots hit a citadel, a similar statistical skill difference would result in a similarly skewed W/L ratio - give skilled players more chance to apply that skill and you'll instantly start to see the results.

 

That's what I want to see more of. I want other classes to catch up with the CV in terms of skill vs reward. I feel that this discrepancy is the most important one to address, above all others.

 

Now, is that the same discrepancy you talk of, or do you mean some other discrepancy?

[Aragathor]

12 hours ago, MadGunna said:

The increased skill ceiling is why CV's have such a massive impact on the game as it stands and why they dominate win-ratios. A skilled player can influence far more of the match in a CV than in any other ship type purely based on both their reach AND the fact the damage output scales vastly more with skill level.

 

If you give BB's the ability to influence a match based on their own skilled inputs alone and less on RNG deciding when their shots hit a citadel, a similar statistical skill difference would result in a similarly skewed W/L ratio - give skilled players more chance to apply that skill and you'll instantly start to see the results.

 

That's what I want to see more of. I want other classes to catch up with the CV in terms of skill vs reward. I feel that this discrepancy is the most important one to address, above all others.

 

Now, is that the same discrepancy you talk of, or do you mean some other discrepancy?

What you want is not going to happen. And I'm grateful to WG for that, because ships in the game should not be able to solo anything, they should depend on each other.

When I talk about the discrepancy between CV players, I mean the fact that a skilled CV player can dominate the whole battle if faced by an average enemy player. That is too much power for a single ship class. That needs to and will hopefully go with the rework.

 

 

[El2aZeR]

7 hours ago, Aragathor said:

they should depend on each other.

 

Don't particularly disagree with this point, but considering reworked CVs seem to be solo damage farming machines with no dependency on the team whatsoever I believe your hopes are thoroughly misplaced.

[MadGunna]

On 9/17/2018 at 11:28 AM, Aragathor said:

What you want is not going to happen. And I'm grateful to WG for that, because ships in the game should not be able to solo anything, they should depend on each other.

When I talk about the discrepancy between CV players, I mean the fact that a skilled CV player can dominate the whole battle if faced by an average enemy player. That is too much power for a single ship class. That needs to and will hopefully go with the rework.

Do you think it is a bad thing that skilled players can dominate a match? If so why?

 

I believe skill should be appropriately rewarded. This is also why I believe balancing should occur at the highest levels of play, but I am aware not everyone is of that opinion.

[Aragathor]

5 minutes ago, MadGunna said:

Do you think it is a bad thing that skilled players can dominate a match? If so why?

It's not about skill but disabling counter plays. A skilled CV player right now can carry the game with ease, as he can shut down any of the normal CV counters. That's unhealthy for the game, as no single ship class should be able to determine the outcome of the battle.

[MadGunna]

2 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

It's not about skill but disabling counter plays. A skilled CV player right now can carry the game with ease, as he can shut down any of the normal CV counters. That's unhealthy for the game, as no single ship class should be able to determine the outcome of the battle.

Again, I'm looking at this through the lens of Kings of the Sea tournaments. I don't recall any CV domination - teams utilise CV's as spotters, but the ability to strike is negated heavily by the teamwork of the enemy team. Overlapping AA can deny parts of the map utterly from friendly planes.

 

This is where my view of 'balancing around the highest level of skill' comes in. Right now the Midway is the CV of choice for ranked because teamplay is usually absent - but in competitive team modes, the Haku becomes dominant due to it's Air Superiority set up.

 

I'd focus more on ensuring the Midway becomes a viable alternative in Kings of the Sea rather than making the Haku viable in Ranked.

 

To grab another game balance example from Overwatch this time, Bastion was an utter monster in random games, because his main purpose was to punish poorly coordinated pushes. Guess what happened a lot in random games? Exactly. Even then the devs balanced his powers around what the high end players pulled off with Bastion and not the pubbies.

 

I just want to establish a baseline here - what would you want to balance around? High end play or random play? Counters to CV attacks right now are essentially teamwork and coordination, not just a button mash.

[antean]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 1:39 PM, Aragathor said:

And how would this change the discrepancy between CV players and the current issues raised by the player base? The answer is, it wouldn't.

Any discrepancy between CV players is the same as a discrepancy between any other player on a BB, C or DD. There's good players & poor ones.

Current issues raised by the player base? You mean the whiners?

There is little wrong, if anything, with CVs as presently configured.

CVs have been the 'same', essentially, since the beginning. There have been tweaks, sure, but nothing too radical.

Problem is, WG has decided to dumb down CVs. This 'test' is nothing but a smokescreen to hide the fact that CVs will be entirely wreaked.

If the CVs get changed, I predict many doors slamming shut as dedicated CV players head for the Exits.

[orlathebeast]

first of all, i want to say a thing. i've never played CVs, because i suck at RTSs. my brain simply can't made all the mats needed to sail a CV. 

 

but this doesen't matter, because i know CVs well. i've played with the best CV player in the world,  in competitive and  in random. 

 

someone here is speaking about "ho, but in competitive CVs are not so effective"

 

well, my little child, competitive play at hig level is so different from randoms who you can tell it's almost a different game. so different, who no wonder why WG decided to ban CVs from clan battles. this was a really, really good idea.

 

and it's not even the skill celling. we are not talking about a great skill difference. you can have battles where the CVs players are only sligtly different in skill. it doesen't matter.

 

why? easy. because the CVs will fight vs each other, but who will suffer the most? all the rest of the players.

 

just think about it: i'm a capable player. well, more than capable. i can counter anyone in any ship with any ship. not perfectly, but i can. because i know what to do if the enemy do something, and i can read the enemy movements so well to predict him. easy peasy.

 

but no matter what, i can't counter a CVs wiith a bit of brain. example: i'm almost a super unicum player. but the CV player doesen't have to be a super unicum as well, he only needs to be decent, and willing to sacrifice some planes of his belowed midway: and i'm dead.

 

no matter what i do, i'm dead anyway. if he want to drop me with thorps, in my cruiser i'm dead. if i use the defensive fire to spread the thorps, first he will score anyway good hits on me, and 40 second later he will came with his AP bombs and i'll die.

 

and this if i'm in a cruiser with DEF AA. if i'm in a BB or a DD, iìll be a easyer target. but at the end of the attak, i'll be dead for sure, if the enemy CV know what he's doing.

 

there is NO WAY to counter a decent CV player in a midway as BB, DD or CA. NO WAY. and if i say so, it's the truth, because i've A BIT of experience in this game. more than many of you.

 

and yes, maby you can survive the attak. but you will be so crippled who you'll be in a severe disadvance vs the rest of the enemy. and notthing stop the CV to kame back for a second run to finish you.

 

this is why the revork is soooooo neded. and this is why i'm so happy because finally WG decided to take actions agains this thing who simply it's forced inside the game in a way everyone hates... exept CV players, of curse.

[El2aZeR]

22 minutes ago, orlathebeast said:

this is why the revork is soooooo neded. and this is why i'm so happy because finally WG decided to take actions agains this thing who simply it's forced inside the game in a way everyone hates

 

Reworked CVs have far fewer counterplay options than current CVs.

Have you even paid attention?

 

23 minutes ago, orlathebeast said:

there is NO WAY to counter a decent CV player in a midway as BB, DD or CA. NO WAY. and if i say so, it's the truth, because i've A BIT of experience in this game. more than many of you.

 

Nah, that only says that you're not nearly as good as you think.

[Clawgr]

While True:
  QA = 'Cvs insta-delete.' # NERF. Lower Population
  QA = 'they still do?' # buff the cruisers!
  QA = 'we still get deleted?' # Manual AA!
  QA = 'Yamato better than Montana?' # Lower Citadels!
  QA = 'cruiser gets focused?' # Buff HE / IFHE
  QA = 'Balance seems perfect!' # Premium CVS!
  QA = 'Great ideas so far:'# Bonus- AP Bombs!
  QA = 'Stupid people still get deleted?' # Maybe the ships are too difficult. Dump em Down! NO citadels on BBs from now on.
  QA = 'No its the CVs that are stupid. They sealclub them!' #Ok make sure they learn to autodrop! It is important for later tiers and 	  premCVs = no panic autoclick
  QA = 'Everything perfect so far:' # NEW line! more premium
  QA = 'Smoke meta? Hydro stronk?' # RADAR! like, everyone
  QA = 'DDs deleted?' # Those #$!@ CVs. #KIDD
  QA = 'ppl are getting uninterested' # More gimmicks, special modules!
  QA = 'DDs still cry..' # Those MF CVs dont learn. Buff DD. SuperSaiyan defensive AA mode!
  QA = 'Cvs cry!' # Oh its about that Midway thing from 2 years ago. Those Americans think we are biased. BUFF USS.
       # Just make sure monkeys can play em. Give them only 1 choice. And dont listen to anyone, wait some months to get data!
  QA = 'Ok that Midway was just a tiny bit too strong' # Buff the Haku! Clearly!
  QA = 'CVs still blap ppl' # New Line: WOOSTER. that will teach them to quit.
  QA = 'Midways bait the defensive! They blap cruisers with AP now!' # How? we made sure that the monk...
       # OOOOH ITS THE F@kin Unicums. Those half-Korean Starcraft scumbags that play RTS all their life!. Thats why the average Cv lose. YEP, THATS IT!
       # That doesnt work at all on our glorious balanced system...
       # Rework! Dump it down so it can be played on Mobile. They cant control their aircrafts, they cant control their carrier. We keep all control

''' Meanwhile on consoles'''

 

Seriously though. Its not like we never asked for balance and for better tutorials. And sure the skill gap is high. But it will get higher the more you let it. On anything. How many times we asked for better rewards on objective play, fix on abuse of some elements, teach players to analyse their games about things that could be done differently.

How things are now? Look at randoms. Why do you think people play on T10s like its some T5

 

The problem is with balance both in lineups and skill difference (some learn, some dont). You already start the battle with the odds uneven.

There are cases that the CV snowballs (especially if unoposed, and unfortunately most times because of the difference on skill).

But there are cases that it doesnt matter how good the CV is. It depends on the lineup and on your/their team. Like heavily. And even on high lvl CV play.

Even if there are differences in skill. Its about who does the stupid move first, and who capitalizes on it and can go eitherway. It can also turn around if you relax (and most often all the thing you can do is trade some strikes/planes).

 

That is why CV is the hardest thing to play. You get mentally fatigued and most of the time get flamed or complimented for the wrong reason!

CVs get advantage from missplays and bad positions. Thats it. They insta-punish people for those though, unlike every other class (yea lets leave aside AP bombs). It is also the best support, and can do every role.

You might think it gives you an easy advantage, but its the same with bringing good combo on divisions and control the map.

You just dont notice it as easy, when your division played good. But you can easy say "oh our CV suck thats why we lose". (you will be surprised on how many cases that wasnt the reason)

 

It is fortunately/unfortunately teamplay the thing that wins battles and I dont think some halfassed rework is gonna fix the day. Wanna try it? Fine. But if you f this up we are going back? (Oh what a stupid question)

[antean]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 11:47 AM, MadGunna said:

I'm not a big fan of the reworked carriers. The strategic nature of the type makes it appealing and it is not like artillery in World of Tanks at all - this class takes actual skill to master and it rewards that mastery as well. That reward is why it is such fun. I would much rather they push the skill ceiling for others ships up than pushing the ceiling for CV's down. /5cts

I agree & you notice how the anti-CV haters think CVs are 'OP'.  CVs can get sunk as easily than any other ship class (likely even easier).

I find it quite instructive how other ship classes get whined about how 'OP' they can be too.

Nothing and I mean NOTHING replaces Good Teamwork - that is the only real OP ship class in the game.

 

[Pikkozoikum]

5 hours ago, antean said:

I agree & you notice how the anti-CV haters think CVs are 'OP'.  CVs can get sunk as easily than any other ship class (likely even easier).

I find it quite instructive how other ship classes get whined about how 'OP' they can be too.

Nothing and I mean NOTHING replaces Good Teamwork - that is the only real OP ship class in the game.

 

I would assume, you're wrong there. Stalingrad, Belfast and Wooster are OP ships (Wooster gets/got nerfed though?)

I don't think CVs are just OP, that depends on the match, they can be OP, or they can be UP (if CV is up tiered or down tiered, and number of AA-ships).

The issue is the impact of a CV combined with the skill gap. The CV has to many possibilities, and he can be stopped only by AA heavy ships or the other CV. Generally one CV will fail (skill gap), so the other CV has a lot impact (scouting at multiple places, especially dds, or knocking out single ships for free without any chance for countermeasurement.)

Sure, good teamwork helps, but teamwork has nothing to do with ship balancing, or not much at least. If you balancing something you should take a scenario, where players are acting same, with same amount of teamwork and skill to have a comparable condition

[Pikkozoikum]

On 10/15/2018 at 11:10 PM, Clawgr said:

While True:
  QA = 'Cvs insta-delete.' # NERF. Lower Population
  QA = 'they still do?' # buff the cruisers!
  QA = 'we still get deleted?' # Manual AA!
  QA = 'Yamato better than Montana?' # Lower Citadels!
  QA = 'cruiser gets focused?' # Buff HE / IFHE
  QA = 'Balance seems perfect!' # Premium CVS!
  QA = 'Great ideas so far:'# Bonus- AP Bombs!
  QA = 'Stupid people still get deleted?' # Maybe the ships are too difficult. Dump em Down! NO citadels on BBs from now on.
  QA = 'No its the CVs that are stupid. They sealclub them!' #Ok make sure they learn to autodrop! It is important for later tiers and 	  premCVs = no panic autoclick
  QA = 'Everything perfect so far:' # NEW line! more premium
  QA = 'Smoke meta? Hydro stronk?' # RADAR! like, everyone
  QA = 'DDs deleted?' # Those #$!@ CVs. #KIDD
  QA = 'ppl are getting uninterested' # More gimmicks, special modules!
  QA = 'DDs still cry..' # Those MF CVs dont learn. Buff DD. SuperSaiyan defensive AA mode!
  QA = 'Cvs cry!' # Oh its about that Midway thing from 2 years ago. Those Americans think we are biased. BUFF USS.
       # Just make sure monkeys can play em. Give them only 1 choice. And dont listen to anyone, wait some months to get data!
  QA = 'Ok that Midway was just a tiny bit too strong' # Buff the Haku! Clearly!
  QA = 'CVs still blap ppl' # New Line: WOOSTER. that will teach them to quit.
  QA = 'Midways bait the defensive! They blap cruisers with AP now!' # How? we made sure that the monk...
       # OOOOH ITS THE F@kin Unicums. Those half-Korean Starcraft scumbags that play RTS all their life!. Thats why the average Cv lose. YEP, THATS IT!
       # That doesnt work at all on our glorious balanced system...
       # Rework! Dump it down so it can be played on Mobile. They cant control their aircrafts, they cant control their carrier. We keep all control

''' Meanwhile on consoles'''

  

(...)

 

"Dump it down so it can be played on Mobile." - but the RTS CV is already playable on the mobile phone?

[antean]

On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 4:19 AM, Pikkozoikum said:

The CV has to many possibilities, and he can be stopped only by AA heavy ships or the other CV

Absolutely incorrect. CVs can be stopped by any other ship. Are any DDs, CAs/CLs or BBs 'gunless'?

I note that guns stop CVs very well. (Could ships guns be OP?) 

I can only imagine that Pikkozoikum has not yet mastered this skill.

 

[Pikkozoikum]

58 minutes ago, antean said:

Absolutely incorrect. CVs can be stopped by any other ship. Are any DDs, CAs/CLs or BBs 'gunless'?

I note that guns stop CVs very well. (Could ships guns be OP?) 

I can only imagine that Pikkozoikum has not yet mastered this skill.

 

When you get countered by the guns of most aa-weak ships, then you must be a bad CV player? I mean, if the game is not already over and no ships are left, then you should never get killed.... I almost never happens to me, when I play CV... so I guess I play all the time against players, who not mastered this skill xD

 

 

[antean]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

almost never happens to me, when I play CV... so I guess I play all the time against players, who not mastered this skill

You must be such an OP CV player, then, if you    almost never get sunk by any other class of ship (somehow, I do not believe your assertion)

[Pikkozoikum]

11 minutes ago, antean said:

You must be such an OP CV player, then, if you    almost never get sunk by any other class of ship (somehow, I do not believe your assertion)

Here, I quote again, and please read again.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

When you get countered by the guns of most aa-weak ships, then you must be a bad CV player? I mean, if the game is not already over and no ships are left, then you should never get killed.... I almost never happens to me, when I play CV... so I guess I play all the time against players, who not mastered this skill xD

 

To explaing "countered". Is a Wooster countered by a Shimakaze? Nope. Does it mean, that a Shima can't sink a Wooster? Nope.

Of course I get sunk by guns. But aa-weak ships doesn't counter a CV

I start to think, that you're trolling

[antean]

8 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But aa-weak ships doesn't counter a CV

Incorrect. Any ship with AA can counter a CV, maybe not well, but it can counter (fire). So, again, Pikkozoikum, you make false statements.

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, antean said:

Incorrect. Any ship with AA can counter a CV, maybe not well, but it can counter (fire). So, again, Pikkozoikum, you make false statements.

Shall we play a game? lets say Ryujo against Mutsu? Wanna see how hard it counters!