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Rework of CVs

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2 hours ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

So? Its the same with any other shipclass as well. If you want some cruiser, BB or enemy CV dead you can do it. Should you not to? Some ships should be untouchable to CV? Is there any other ship like that? Untouchable to some ship(class) in the game? BB that any DD cant sink or DD that any BB cant sink etc?

Other ship types can escape, BB can retreat and so DD can't kill him, DD can get back fast and retreat. Cruiser also . But CV has the ability to permanently spot a DD and chase him down very fast. You cannot hide in smoke, you can't run away. In T4-5 CV can't get DD in smoke and it's their last option against CV .

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2 hours ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

 

What is it with this dropping smokes? All other ship classes can drop torps and blind fire - why CVs shouldnt? Have you been surpriced in the smoke by CV too many times? Thats not the CVs fault.

Well if you torp smoke you torp it from one direction. CV can torp it from 2 or even 3 directions (Taiho and Hakuryu) . You can do it from DD only if you are in division with other DD and you are in position to crossdrop. CV can do it easily. 

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5 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

You cannot hide in smoke, you can't run away.

 

Except you can sit close to friendly AA cover and effectively be untouchable. No other class is forced to abort an attack due to the mere presence of an enemy ship either.

CVs have clear limitations that most people ignore to their disadvantage. I have no sympathies with a DD that rushes a cap only to be obliterated by aircraft.

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1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Except you can sit close to friendly AA cover and effectively be untouchable. No other class is forced to abort an attack due to the mere presence of an enemy ship, too.

CVs have clear limitations that most people ignore to their disadvantage. I have no sympathies with a DD that rushes a cap only to be obliterated by aircraft.

Sometimes you don't have great AA cruisers with you. Like RN CL or Japanese ones. Especially having no Def AA. Or it's a T7 game and much if T5-6 cruisers have mediocre AA (except USN cruisers), especially against Saipan or Kaga .

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5 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Other ship types can escape, BB can retreat and so DD can't kill him, DD can get back fast and retreat. Cruiser also . But CV has the ability to permanently spot a DD and chase him down very fast. You cannot hide in smoke, you can't run away. In T4-5 CV can't get DD in smoke and it's their last option against CV .

 

Only if you solo which is bad anyways. When there is CV in game it makes DDs play more cautious - el2aZer just made the same point. If you rush into a cap or solo around the map there is no help for you. No mather what class you play. Solo BB is a snack for CV as well. You need to play with the team.

 

CV in game and DD going cap? You can ask friendly CV for air support and call some AA cruisers closeby to assist you as well. There is really no need to be untouchable in the smoke. Top tier CVs can drop from multiple directions but you can still make bigger smokebloom and manouver in there. Not stay stationary like many lower tier DDs do and get struck even with single 6 TB squad...

 

Going alone into cap without proper intelligence information whats coming, without airsupport... Its just asking for trouble. You can also run into enemy gunboat DD rushing in with 1-2 cruisers where one of them is radar. No escaping that either and you are 100% dead.

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2 minutes ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

Only if you solo which is bad anyways. When there is CV in game it makes DDs play more cautious - el2aZer just made the same point. If you rush into a cap or solo around the map there is no help for you. No mather what class you play. Solo BB is a snack for CV as well. You need to play with the team.

 

CV in game and DD going cap? You can ask friendly CV for air support and call some AA cruisers closeby to assist you as well. There is really no need to be untouchable in the smoke. Top tier CVs can drop from multiple directions but you can still make bigger smokebloom and manouver in there. Not stay stationary like many lower tier DDs do and get struck even with single 6 TB squad...

 

Going alone into cap without proper intelligence information whats coming, without airsupport... Its just asking for trouble. You can also run into enemy gunboat DD rushing in with 1-2 cruisers where one of them is radar. No escaping that either and you are 100% dead.

OFC if you got normal CV player in team with brain. But if goes to make headshot and takes fighters on the side of the map too... Oh man. So you try to go to cap, you retreat even you your team but he still flies after you even if he lost planes. Even if he doesn't take you down, having low hp you can't really do anything...:fish_boom:

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6 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Sometimes you don't have great AA cruisers with you.

 

Well, that means you're just :etc_swear:ed, no? After all encountering a well played DD and having no radar/hydro with you is pretty much the same situation.

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Just now, MacArthur92 said:

OFC if you got normal CV player in team with brain. But if goes to make headshot and takes fighters on the side of the map too... Oh man. So you try to go to cap, you retreat even you your team but he still flies after you even if he lost planes. Even if he doesn't take you down, having low hp you can't really do anything...:fish_boom:

 

Sure but is that the enemy CVs fault? Any CVs fault? No. You just dont push caps without support - period. Even if there is no CV in game you dont solocap without some info whats coming that way etc. You can still run into radar cruiser and gunboat DD and still die even without any CVs in game. But thats just plain and simple stupid way to push.

 

Cant push because friendly CV is crap / dont have support in caps? Then you dont push. You do something else. Spot what you can, try some other cap, support the team. It might not be enough to carry to victory but you cant do all. And rushing into a cap and get killed first by CV (or radar cruiser) is just dumb way to play. No games are won like that and it isn't even funny.

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1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Well, that means you're just :etc_swear:ed, no? After all encountering a well played DD and having no radar/hydro with you is pretty much the same situation.

In that moment you can retreat. You got some options. CV with many squads = you are dead. So now it'll be better to DDs, no perma spot, no trillion of planes on your head.  That's all.

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1 minute ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

Sure but is that the enemy CVs fault? Any CVs fault? No. You just dont push caps without support - period. Even if there is no CV in game you dont solocap without some info whats coming that way etc. You can still run into radar cruiser and gunboat DD and still die even without any CVs in game. But thats just plain and simple stupid way to push.

 

Cant push because friendly CV is crap / dont have support in caps? Then you dont push. You do something else. Spot what you can, try some other cap, support the team. It might not be enough to carry to victory but you cant do all. And rushing into a cap and get killed first by CV (or radar cruiser) is just dumb way to play. No games are won like that and it isn't even funny.

Oh yeah so better stay with BB? Because there is CV so zero push. Ok. But even if CV finds me ( not pushing ) what will he prefer? Kill me as DD or a BB? A skilled one will definitely kill the DD. No matter if you push or not. The situation is changed on tier 8-10 where the AA is significantly better both on cruisers and BBs. I'm talking about playing T5-7 DDs and encountering T7 CV .

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3 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

In that moment you can retreat.

 

Which isn't possible either because you need to take objectives and the DD being faster and stealthier than you will keep you spotted and under attack the entire time. Unless you plan on running to the border of the map then losing by default this notion is hilarious at best. It doesn't matter at all whether you survive.

As for DDs, have you not seen the video? I can permaspot one or multiple in the same area AND harass him/them to death. That is an escalation of power far beyond what we have now.

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Just now, MacArthur92 said:

In that moment you can retreat. You got some options. CV with many squads = you are dead. So now it'll be better to DDs, no perma spot, no trillion of planes on your head.  That's all.

 

It all depends how they balance it. Did you check out what kind of damage those rocket planes make to a DD and how big area that rocketburst covers? 12 planes in squad, 4x3 attacks before running out of planes. 1-2 fires on each pass. You really think that is going to be balanced and not causing some crying with DDs? But sure. seems like no more crossdrops from multiple directions. Unless they allow multiple CVs in each game with platoons which is also possible. But even without, you can die straight away from crossdrop now or burn away slower against rocketplanes...?

 

Its just like SPGs in WoT. Now you cant get one-shotted with AP shells but they can pummel heavy tanks to permanent stun, permanently dead crew members... Its just death by thousand cuts now.

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2 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Oh yeah so better stay with BB? Because there is CV so zero push. Ok. But even if CV finds me ( not pushing ) what will he prefer? Kill me as DD or a BB? A skilled one will definitely kill the DD. No matter if you push or not. The situation is changed on tier 8-10 where the AA is significantly better both on cruisers and BBs. I'm talking about playing T5-7 DDs and encountering T7 CV .

 

So its CVs fault that caps win games and experienced players attend to kill DDs on sight just because of their stealth and capability to cap / spot? Thats common to all more experienced players. I kill DDs with every shipclass I play and they are the primary target just because of those mentioned things. If enemy cruiser spots you in DD and BB - which one is he targeting? DD if he is not totally nob. Cause damage that he can, maybe kill you and farm BB later.

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2 minutes ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

It all depends how they balance it. Did you check out what kind of damage those rocket planes make to a DD and how big area that rocketburst covers? 12 planes in squad, 4x3 attacks before running out of planes. 1-2 fires on each pass. You really think that is going to be balanced and not causing some crying with DDs? But sure. seems like no more crossdrops from multiple directions. Unless they allow multiple CVs in each game with platoons which is also possible. But even without, you can die straight away from crossdrop now or burn away slower against rocketplanes...?

 

Its just like SPGs in WoT. Now you cant get one-shotted with AP shells but they can pummel heavy tanks to permanent stun, permanently dead crew members... Its just death by thousand cuts now.

Rockets do small damage. As the Kaga bombs . The fire problem... Well yes but the repair party cool down is quick in DD. Plus in smoke it'll be hard to target you .

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4 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

As for DDs, have you not seen the video? I can permaspot one or multiple in the same area AND harass him/them to death. That is an escalation of power far beyond what we have now.

Yep. Those rocketplanes particularily seemed total doom for DDs. Way more fearsome than DBs today.

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1 minute ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

So its CVs fault that caps win games and experienced players attend to kill DDs on sight just because of their stealth and capability to cap / spot? Thats common to all more experienced players. I kill DDs with every shipclass I play and they are the primary target just because of those mentioned things. If enemy cruiser spots you in DD and BB - which one is he targeting? DD if he is not totally nob. Cause damage that he can, maybe kill you and farm BB later.

That's what I'm talking about. From other ship class DD can escape and it's harder to shoot him in longer distance too. CV ? His planes are fast and has no range problems. If I get into MM and the enemy CV hates me (personal reasons or non personal ) he can chase me even to map border ....

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Just now, MacArthur92 said:

Rockets do small damage. As the Kaga bombs . The fire problem... Well yes but the repair party cool down is quick in DD. Plus in smoke it'll be hard to target you .

Experienced CV captains also know how short that repair is. Only 5 sec etc. So you repair and he can strike you again on the next flyby - 1-2 more fires and you are more visible to the team, losing health, permaspotted...

 

I dont see these problems being CV related. You can run into similar issues with reckless play without any CVs in game. Some people consider overpopulation of radar (X-ray actually) ships instead of CV problems and I think I agree. Top tier IJN DDs are pretty much F U because of this. No use from stealth when there is 2-3 radar ships on each side, hydros etc. Torps are also visible from moon etc. Played up to Yugomo and didnt suit that well. Its a nightmare far beyond any CV.

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Just now, MacArthur92 said:

That's what I'm talking about. From other ship class DD can escape and it's harder to shoot him in longer distance too. CV ? His planes are fast and has no range problems. If I get into MM and the enemy CV hates me (personal reasons or non personal ) he can chase me even to map border ....

 

So? Sh*t happens. If you can pull CVs full attension to yourself and map border your team is winning big time. I've done this with Russian gunboats plenty of times and it applies to other ship classes as well. If you can take T8 DD and pull cruiser and two BBs chasing to to map border its a huge advantage to other DDs and team to cap and win the game. Even if you die doing it.

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1 minute ago, LongJohn_ said:

Experienced CV captains also know how short that repair is. Only 5 sec etc. So you repair and he can strike you again on the next flyby - 1-2 more fires and you are more visible to the team, losing health, permaspotted...

 

I dont see these problems being CV related. You can run into similar issues with reckless play without any CVs in game. Some people consider overpopulation of radar (X-ray actually) ships instead of CV problems and I think I agree. Top tier IJN DDs are pretty much F U because of this. No use from stealth when there is 2-3 radar ships on each side, hydros etc. Torps are also visible from moon etc. Played up to Yugomo and didnt suit that well. Its a nightmare far beyond any CV.

Radar is in high tiers and DD has no such issues with CV cause cruisers have good/great AA, same BBs. The problem is on mid tiers with CV's .

Radar meta is another issue . Especially stealth radar ships (Warcester, Minotaur).

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1 minute ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

So? Sh*t happens. If you can pull CVs full attension to yourself and map border your team is winning big time. I've done this with Russian gunboats plenty of times and it applies to other ship classes as well. If you can take T8 DD and pull cruiser and two BBs chasing to to map border its a huge advantage to other DDs and team to cap and win the game. Even if you die doing it.

Yeah in Russian gunboats you have the speed and you can play with it . Aigle and Błyskawica are also a good example. But something like shinonome/Kamikaze/Gallant/Fubuki... :fish_nerv:

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Just now, MacArthur92 said:

Radar is in high tiers and DD has no such issues with CV cause cruisers have good/great AA, same BBs. The problem is on mid tiers with CV's .

Radar meta is another issue . Especially stealth radar ships (Warcester, Minotaur).

So basically you are referring to Ryujo, Hiryu, Kaga and Saipan? They all have two torp squads and play at T6-7. USN CVs have only one TB squad up to T9.. But you dont know how often I alphastrike first DD rushing into a cap with my first to takeoff 6 plane torpsquad in my Ranger? A lot. Try it everytime because its just so succesful. But if you get destroyed by single TB squad you are doing something seriously wrong in DD.

 

There is no way around it that you as DD are a premium target for enemy teams experienced players. If they are in a CV ok but in other classes as well. DDs win games..

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4 minutes ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

So? Sh*t happens. If you can pull CVs full attension to yourself and map border your team is winning big time. I've done this with Russian gunboats plenty of times and it applies to other ship classes as well. If you can take T8 DD and pull cruiser and two BBs chasing to to map border its a huge advantage to other DDs and team to cap and win the game. Even if you die doing it.

That's why I'm so hyped by the Le Terrible. It'll be a T8 Khaba great flanker :cat_cool:

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1 minute ago, MacArthur92 said:

Yeah in Russian gunboats you have the speed and you can play with it . Aigle and Błyskawica are also a good example. But something like shinonome/Kamikaze/Gallant/Fubuki... :fish_nerv:

 

Yep. You wanna guess why I dont play IJN DDs that often? I have Akatsuki and quite like it but its in T7 "protected" MM. Sure sees T9 battles but its not as FU as T8s are. How I play Akatsuki? Like a total coward. Very very carefully like IJN DDs should. Straight to cap only if you are 100% sure its unattended, torp from range and wait for mid-late stages of the game. Its pretty common that you should not die in IJN DD in first half of the battle. Or if you do you play too aggressive.

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3 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Rockets do small damage.

 

They can actually almost oneshot you with 4 penetrations already yielding 3k damage. This will rarely ever happen though due to the large spread. On the other hand thanks to the large spread it's pretty much impossible to miss.

The problem will not be the damage (although that will play a big part), the problem will be fires and the planes flying unopposed overhead that get you spotted and killed.

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Just now, LongJohn_ said:

So basically you are referring to Ryujo, Hiryu, Kaga and Saipan? They all have two torp squads and play at T6-7. USN CVs have only one TB squad up to T9.. But you dont know how often I alphastrike first DD rushing into a cap with my first to takeoff 6 plane torpsquad in my Ranger? A lot. Try it everytime because its just so succesful. But if you get destroyed by single TB squad you are doing something seriously wrong in DD.

 

There is no way around it that you as DD are a premium target for enemy teams experienced players. If they are in a CV ok but in other classes as well. DDs win games..

Ryujo and Hiryu have 2 DB squads . Saipan is less a problem having less torps and bombs. But Kaga.... Omg man this 12 super fast torps . Once I got hit, survived. Was on less than 2 k hp. Then bombs came , 850 hp took but 2 fire started .... 15 sec to repair wasn't enough :fish_boom:

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