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Warderer

A noob's rant on low-tier CVs gameplay.

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Hey everyone!

So I decided to try CVs. No idea why. I mostly play DDs but I don't currently like the radar meta at high tiers at the moment so I decided to try something new. 

Langley was actually pretty fun to play. I had some really nice games with her and I quickly got to the Bogue. I don't think that she is a bad ship but my problem is when I am facing tier 6 CVs.

It all comes from the manual drop and strafing mechanics. I get why Wargaming removed it from low-tier CVs but it's absolutely mindboggling why are tier 5 CVs playing against tier 6 CVs. An Independence, for example, needs only one strafe to completely delete my fighters. They are absolutely useless and I only have one squadron of them. I lose them sometimes even if they are in my allies protective AA bubble.  

Tier 6 CVs can also manual drop on dds and completely delete them, while I just stand there and facepalm while every single of my torpedos misses against every tier 6 dd. If they guy is AFK I will probably hit him.

I have played this game for some time now and I know that not everything is completely balanced but the tier 5 CV gameplay is a complete joke.

Rant over.

I have no idea what the rework will be but I truly hope that it fixes the CV gameplay because I actually enjoy them.

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Back when I was leveling my tier 5 carriers (some months ago) I rarely met tier 6 CVs but if I did, that means there's also a tier 6 CV on your team. Communicate with him, if he's a decent CV player he will know of your weaknesses. Use him and assist in stuff like spotting.

 

Frankly I think Bogue was a pretty nice grind, Zuiho was a bit more difficult (when facing Bogue) due to its more fragile fighters.

 

And the sealclubbers don't make it easy as well. But trust me, it becomes worse once you start meeting Saipans and the REALLY good CV players.

Might then as well just put down your mouse, they will outplay you every milimeter of the way. Have fun! :Smile-_tongue::Smile_trollface:

 

Btw, CVs are fun to use in operations, if you love operations you will love playing those with the tier 6 CVs :Smile_great:

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31 minutes ago, Warderer said:

I get why Wargaming removed it from low-tier CVs but it's absolutely mindboggling why are tier 5 CVs playing against tier 6 CVs.

 

"Because you also get a T6 CV on your team." - Official response from WG

 

Yes, that is precisely as stupid as it sounds.

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23 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Back when I was leveling my tier 5 carriers (some months ago) I rarely met tier 6 CVs but if I did, that means there's also a tier 6 CV on your team. Communicate with him, if he's a decent CV player he will know of your weaknesses. Use him and assist in stuff like spotting.

 

Frankly I think Bogue was a pretty nice grind, Zuiho was a bit more difficult (when facing Bogue) due to its more fragile fighters.

 

And the sealclubbers don't make it easy as well. But trust me, it becomes worse once you start meeting Saipans and the REALLY good CV players.

Might then as well just put down your mouse, they will outplay you every milimeter of the way. Have fun! :Smile-_tongue::Smile_trollface:

 

Btw, CVs are fun to use in operations, if you love operations you will love playing those with the tier 6 CVs :Smile_great:

Yes exactly!

I can't wait to get to tier 6 CVs :cap_rambo::Smile-_tongue:

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On 2-7-2018 at 7:19 PM, Warderer said:

Hey everyone!

So I decided to try CVs. No idea why. I mostly play DDs but I don't currently like the radar meta at high tiers at the moment so I decided to try something new. 

Langley was actually pretty fun to play. I had some really nice games with her and I quickly got to the Bogue. I don't think that she is a bad ship but my problem is when I am facing tier 6 CVs.

It all comes from the manual drop and strafing mechanics. I get why Wargaming removed it from low-tier CVs but it's absolutely mindboggling why are tier 5 CVs playing against tier 6 CVs. An Independence, for example, needs only one strafe to completely delete my fighters. They are absolutely useless and I only have one squadron of them. I lose them sometimes even if they are in my allies protective AA bubble.  

Tier 6 CVs can also manual drop on dds and completely delete them, while I just stand there and facepalm while every single of my torpedos misses against every tier 6 dd. If they guy is AFK I will probably hit him.

I have played this game for some time now and I know that not everything is completely balanced but the tier 5 CV gameplay is a complete joke.

Rant over.

I have no idea what the rework will be but I truly hope that it fixes the CV gameplay because I actually enjoy them.

Maybe just learn to dodge strafe's? Do you think your planes will be immune to strafing from T6?

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I think the only thing you can do in these T5+T6 four-carrier games is be super conservative with your T5. Basically play backup to your team's T6. Use this as a chance to practice strafe-dodging, and locking his planes after a missed strafe.

 

And you should just move to T6 ASAP. Both T6 carriers are really fun and absolutely worth it.

 

And yeah, it's really, really stupid. I kinda, sort of, theoretically see why they removed the alt attacks.. You had crazy seal-clubbing going on in low-tier carrier games. The good player would remove enemy's planes, and then kill enemy ships one by one, as only Texas had appreciable AA. So as a hamfisted solution they lower the skill ceiling. Now the CV seal clubbing starts at T6, but there at least ships can group up for decent AA.

But MIXING those T5 and T6 CV's in a single game, what the hell... I was at the time suggesting removing the alt attacks only from Langley and Hosho, and keeping those MM's separately from T5's. So these two really early CV's, with nice balanced plane setups, would've been the training stage.

 

It's too bad they did this. I actually really loved the old 1/1/0 Bogue.

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On 7/2/2018 at 6:52 PM, Warderer said:

Yes exactly!

I can't wait to get to tier 6 CVs :cap_rambo::Smile-_tongue:

When you will face Tier VIII Cvs...

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7 minutes ago, Hedgehog1963 said:

When you will face Tier VIII Cvs...

That you can't  ( double cv matches  are allowed only up to tier7)

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1 minute ago, Flavio1997 said:

That you can't  ( double cv matches  are allowed only up to tier7)

 

Oh, thanks.  One of the reasons I've never got past Bogue was lack of motivation to fight +2 mm higher up the tree.

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Am 2.7.2018 um 19:19, Warderer sagte:

Tier 6 CVs can also manual drop on dds and completely delete them, while I just stand there and facepalm while every single of my torpedos misses against every tier 6 dd. If they guy is AFK I will probably hit him.

I wonder why, since T6 DDs are on the whole less agile than T5.
 

Zitat

 

I have played this game for some time now and I know that not everything is completely balanced but the tier 5 CV gameplay is a complete joke.


 

Disagree. OK, the problem with the strafing against higher tier CVs is there. But for one thing, whenever you are up against a T6 CV, it's always a two-CV battle, so there is also a T6 CV on your own team. A bit of teamwork can go a long way. You can always try to play to your strengths, like very close air support for your surface combattants.

 

And trust me: a real CV expert and sealclubber will blap you even if he's also in a T5 CV. Possibly even if he's in a T5 and you are in a T6, because this strafing and manual dropping thing is hard. The behaviour of those planes is a complete mystery to me, they keep doing unpredictable extra loops and circles before the strafing etc. I have all but given up on it.

 

On the positive side, most of the time, you can do plenty of things in those "dumb" autodrop CVs. They have easily the biggest impact on the game even in the low tiers and they can also make it super quick and easy fo farm certain challenges, so especially interesting if you don't have a premium account. Just a couple examples.

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yeah, when I play Zuiho I really hate tier 6 battles, specially with an enemy tier 6 carrier. However instead of complaining like lots of people do (specially dds vs radars) I decided to find tactics which would allow me to win the battle. Like all the people who complained that Zuiho vs AS Bogue was totally useless.

Check this. Tier 5 and 6 carriers, twice the xp in my Zuiho than our Independence (which didn't did it bad btw). And specially taking in consideration that enemy Ryujo was using the AS Setup. So it IS possible to remain useful even under these circunstances.

 

shot-18_07.03_13_11.10-0051.thumb.jpg.9f16ae41fab5cef83cb64e312f843dcf.jpg

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When I played Bogue, only started the USN line after the removal of manual drop by the way, I felt like a dirty sealclubber.

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On 4.7.2018 at 10:20 AM, Hedgehog1963 said:

 

Oh, thanks.  One of the reasons I've never got past Bogue was lack of motivation to fight +2 mm higher up the tree.

You still can and will meet T8 non-CVs. Ever tried to touch an NC with your Zuihou/Indy planes? You basically can spot for the first part of the match and try to find isolated T6 and T7 ships (or DDs that don't have defAA, though even a decently specced Akizuki/Harekaze can shred your T6 planes) and kill them, as even Amagi has enough AA to make you pay a very high price for basically torping one of the best torp belts there is. And then you get reported because "CV, y u no reset the Cleve, Monarch and Myoko that are capping base. Useless CV!" Legit happened to me. I eventually made one attack run with full four squads and fighter on them, because what else to do, obviously lost them all so fast, not even a single one made it home.

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1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

You still can and will meet T8 non-CVs. Ever tried to touch an NC with your Zuihou/Indy planes? You basically can spot for the first part of the match and try to find isolated T6 and T7 ships (or DDs that don't have defAA, though even a decently specced Akizuki/Harekaze can shred your T6 planes) and kill them, as even Amagi has enough AA to make you pay a very high price for basically torping one of the best torp belts there is. And then you get reported because "CV, y u no reset the Cleve, Monarch and Myoko that are capping base. Useless CV!" Legit happened to me. I eventually made one attack run with full four squads and fighter on them, because what else to do, obviously lost them all so fast, not even a single one made it home.

I've never played past Bogue in PvP although I've dabbled with Saipan in PvE

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Unpopular opinion: This was much less of a problem back when CV MM wasn't mirrored. You'd get the crap game where you were in a t6 CV alone vs a t7, but you'd also get the matches were the other side didn't even have a CV. The sheer possibility of this meant people played CV more and so the CV player pool was much more balanced (on average).

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4 minutes ago, th3freakie said:

Unpopular opinion: This was much less of a problem back when CV MM wasn't mirrored. You'd get the crap game where you were in a t6 CV alone vs a t7, but you'd also get the matches were the other side didn't even have a CV. The sheer possibility of this meant people played CV more and so the CV player pool was much more balanced (on average).

Oh, god yes. It was so much more balanced when it wasn't unicum vs potato and was just unicum vs noone in the skies...

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I do not play CV much myself BUT it occurs to me that the issues CV gameplay could perhaps be resolved with just a few minor fixes such as:

 

1) Make it so that a CV's would always have the same tier planes, than the top tier ships in the game. Loadout could remain the same and plane numbers too. This way higher tier AA would not simply massacre all of them making a low tier CV utterly useless in combat and it would also be able to combat a higher tier CV somewhat (it would still have less reserve planes tho so less endurance but this would help).

2) Make it so, that a manual drop being a close-quarters affair would result in planes HP penalty enabling DD AA to disrupt the drop. The result would be that CV's would not be so much of an anti-DD weapon as they are today, but that it would be more beneficial for a CV player to seek out other capital ships instead (which was the intention in the first place, I believe). It would also mean that when attacking a target with heavy AA, auto-drop with cross-dropping employed would lead to reduced plane casualties (maybe so that AA effectiveness is reduced a bit, since dropping from greater distance the close range AA is not so effective but only the medium and perhaps long range would count 100%), while attempting a manual drop against an AA cruiser would be nearly suicidal (as it is already so not much change there anyway). This way it would also be possible for the target, to conduct evasive maneuvers and perhaps avoid at the least some hits. The exact mechanics of this would work should of course be tested and balanced out properly first.

3) One way to do this might be that when a manual drop is used, target ship's CLOSE RANGE AA ONLY (so the pea shooters with a range of under 2,5km only, for example) would get a 50% boots to its effectiveness. This would make it somewhat trickier to knock off DD's but it would still be possible tho...

 

Perhaps these things would ease the pain a bit and help balance things out, I don't know (since you know, not a CV player myself). But we could always think of some such, lessee what the CV players have to say.:cap_hmm:

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3 minutes ago, th3freakie said:

Unpopular opinion: This was much less of a problem back when CV MM wasn't mirrored. You'd get the crap game where you were in a t6 CV alone vs a t7, but you'd also get the matches were the other side didn't even have a CV. The sheer possibility of this meant people played CV more and so the CV player pool was much more balanced (on average).

1. Lack of mirror MM actually wouldn't change a thing here. You are not guaranteed a t6 CV when you are a t5 CV - if that higher tier CV appears now, it would also appear without mirror MM. In fact, you'd meet more CVs (including higher tier ones) if there were more CVs in general (as you insist there would).

2. While this problem isn't the case, there certainly are many problems that were aggravated (if not introduced) by mirror MM. Still, the problems stemming from lack of such MM were much more significant.

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8 minutes ago, RAHJAILARI said:

just a few minor fixes

 

So basically "murder CV gameplay" as auto drops are ludicrously worthless.

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32 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

So basically "murder CV gameplay" as auto drops are ludicrously worthless.

Murdering CV gameplay is what they are already doing at WG as we speak (ever heard of the CV gameplay redux to be done this year), just trying to see if there is some way how it could be made to work. Also, you are purposefully misinterpreting my post lad. I never said auto-drops should or could not be improved in any way, because if needed then that could be done too - I did mention that auto-dropping should be "safer" and reduce plane losses at the least, so why not a bit more accurate too, while at it? Just trying to figure out a working mechanism of how it could be made more balanced and corresponding to their original purpose in the game.:Smile_Default:

Edited by RAHJAILARI

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On 4.7.2018 at 1:28 PM, Sargento_YO said:

Check this. Tier 5 and 6 carriers, twice the xp in my Zuiho than our Independence (which didn't did it bad btw). And specially taking in consideration that enemy Ryujo was using the AS Setup. So it IS possible to remain useful even under these circunstances.

 

Yea sure, for good and above players. But for players, that have just picked up CVs, having maybe 30-50 games on T4 and just got to T5 - it simply isnt. And they will lose interest in CV gameplay.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

Oh, god yes. It was so much more balanced when it wasn't unicum vs potato and was just unicum vs noone in the skies...

Wasn't the difference between those two scenarios? 1 good strafe. 

 

At least before most CVs were not unicums and they ended up having less direct influence on matches than they do now. Then again that was before manual everything too.

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50 minutes ago, RAHJAILARI said:

I did mention that auto-dropping should be "safer" and reduce plane losses at the least, so why not a bit more accurate too, while at it?

 

Because the idea of auto drop itself is incredibly stupid and one of the main reasons such a massive skill gap exists to begin with. The best thing you can do with it is to remove it.

Improving it in any way just once again caters to the lowest possible denominator.

 

CVs can be improved by ironically changing a lot of things that have nothing to do with their basic gameplay concept. What should not be done is tinker around with mechanics that have been proven to work.

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1 hour ago, eliastion said:

1. Lack of mirror MM actually wouldn't change a thing here. You are not guaranteed a t6 CV when you are a t5 CV - if that higher tier CV appears now, it would also appear without mirror MM. In fact, you'd meet more CVs (including higher tier ones) if there were more CVs in general (as you insist there would).

2. While this problem isn't the case, there certainly are many problems that were aggravated (if not introduced) by mirror MM. Still, the problems stemming from lack of such MM were much more significant.

It wouldn't protect you from meeting higher tier CVs no, it would in fact make it more likely. Which wasn't such a big problem when WG wasn't literally gimping low tier CVs vs higher tier ones. The main problem with lack of mirror MM was when one team had a CV and the other one didn't, but then again that meant they had an extra BB usually, which compensated somewhat. Nowdays you have this extreme imbalance between super-unicums and potatoes, which means in practice one side still doesn't have a CV, but they don't get the BB to compensate either. 

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Just now, El2aZeR said:

CVs can be improved by ironically changing a lot of things that have nothing to do with their basic gameplay concept. What should not be done is tinker around with mechanics that have been proven to work.

 

I agree, which is why Manual Drop/Strafe should go too ;)

 

CVs in the game have been going downhill (in players and enjoyment by others) since they started introducing it. It's as if they gave BBs the option to fly their shells into citadels.

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