Jump to content
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
DataDemon

How to nerf Worcester (?)

173 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

[PARAZ]
Players
46 posts
15,183 battles

Don't get me wrong, I love this ship, but you have to admit it is slightly OP. Some of you might not have this ship yet to answer the question, and I love the fact you have the ability to abuse this ship in clanwars before it gets nerfed to oblivion. And I would love if WG keeps this ship as it is (like they did with Conqueror in the end), but if they should nerf it I would like it to be nerfed the right way. 
My suggestion is, nerf the turret traverse first/only. To seattles gun traverse. Or alternativly let it have back the 25mm deck armor. Make it as squishy as a chapaev.

My reasoning: My goal is to have a ship balance. Since we are talking about clanwars/randoms/ranked the very least is a balance in between a ship class (Cruisers).
Before Worcester came out the T10 cruisers had the best Balance in the whole game. Worcester just shits on it. I would not mind if Worcester would just be an HE focussed Des Moines. So the tradeoff would be no AP power, but you get a lot of HE DMP for that. Then every ship would still have its nieche and balance would be still there. But, Worcester right now has no reason to sit behind islands. And that is the big 'problem'.
-Worcester can freelance. Noone can spot it. Except a dd. But then the dd will get radared. At any position on the map. No dd is safe. A worcester can even activly hunt dds and it requires skill and patience to bait a radar and get out, even if you know what is coming for you.
-Worcester can tank. Compared to a radar mino, it is not easy to kill a worcester. It is not impossible to citadel it, but even at broadside the chances are high you will just ovepen it. The only thing that does reliably citadel it are only Des Moines AP shells so far. And that is also the only matchup a worcester might lose 1v1. Every other cruiser it simply poops on.
-Worcester can kite. It can doge, it has almost a troll armor (actually no armor, but serves same). It will not get spotted until you want to. Sure, the shell arcs are bad, but if you can hit something in Henry, so can you in Worcester. Big ships, stationary ships and mid range are enough. And the amazing turret traverse makes changing directions easy. 

-It has the best DPM in the game. No cruiser can push it in open waters. I would even claim it wins 1v2 pushing Hindenburgs. It just simply replaces a zao. If you consider Zao should go to cap, assist dd and run. Worcester can do the same. It even spots the dd himself. At 10-12km you have no troubles hitting, at 14-16km you are still more effective than a zao. Zao has only torps, arcs for sniping at max range and AP potential speaking for it.
 

And that is the reason I consider Worcester to be OP. It can do both: sitting in cover spamming HE, aswell as kiting like a zao hunting dds and flanking. Even worse it can combine that, like you sit in the first cover (like you would in DM), you lose position, and while you would pay dearly with DM you can simply kite away. (thx to concealment and turret traverse, and shooting angles). Then chose next island where to stop. Or differnetly, play it as a zao until you are down to 10k HP and then you switch to hiding only. It has just too much flexibility. And to call it balanced you should take away from worcester what it took away from zao.
If you think Worcester needs no nerfing, I would not mind. It is my favourite ship right now and I would gladly keep it that way. But should you agree with me and time for nerfing come, then let us agree that the ship should continue clevelands dynasty of a pure HE spamming island hugger, instead of turning it into something else.  


*Notice that I was not talking about divisions (smoke+Worcester), his AA, or its many consumables. The cries out there are that this ship is OP because of these reasons (->alone meh, divisions great), but I claim that it will remain unbalanced for even without these gimmicks; but mainly for the reasons/flixibility I mentioned above.

  • Cool 7
  • Funny 1
  • Boring 5
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
4,525 posts
9,851 battles

It's been in the game for 2 days.

 

Only those willing to fork out a ton of fxp (and/or cash) has it at this point.

 

Can we possibly save the "nerf this" threads for atleast another week or two?

  • Cool 16
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NOCAP]
Players
329 posts
14,094 battles
5 hours ago, AgarwaenME said:

It's been in the game for 2 days.

 

Only those willing to fork out a ton of fxp (and/or cash) has it at this point.

 

Can we possibly save the "nerf this" threads for atleast another week or two?

I was about to say the same. Only the people who passed Seattle with FXP have it and not much performance information on it has been gathered. I am halfway down there through the Seattle, so I cannot comment on the situation either. Let's reopen this for discussion later when we have a decent pool to draw from? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
[SCRUB]
Players
1,492 posts
19,270 battles

played 7 battles on her yet (yeah, not too much lol), but might simply drop my impression so far:

it's basically, obviously lol, an uptiered atlanta, a bit similar to the uptiering of cleve. what makes it so effective is the combo of firing arcs, concealment, AA range and radar range+duration imo.

 

i'm not sure yet if it is op and can see the reasoning for it's insane AA (though it is over the top by numbers.... yet cv's didnt came so close to me so i could have checked myself :Smile_veryhappy:), as soon it is spotted it gets tricky without cover, as for any cl on t10. even more considering the range of mb's and firing arcs (benefits on the other hand quite good summed up in op).

 

[in one match i tanked a DM shortrange bow on, who was convinced he had to bounce off me on and on by shooting only AP lel, while in the meantime i burned a GK on like 15km.... in the end both died (i clearly blame it on them, they were ought to blap me). ->... been on the moskva as i can recall now, bowarmor ftw :Smile_teethhappy:... well, while we're at op cruisers :Smile_trollface::Smile_hiding::Smile_child:....]

so far i can tell i do love it 4 sure :Smile_great:....

i think it is very comparable with atlanta on its tier in the end, so the performance (like so often) really depends on the player and his ability to cater the ships strenghts in given environment. wrong map, wrong position, wrong spot: dead. not too much situations u can xpect mercy from it, not too much mercy it gives under right circumstances. while it might plays indeed somehow more survivable than f.e. a mino.

 

op?... maybe.... i think i jump the "let'swait2weeks" train :Smile_honoring:

  • Cool 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[-T-O-]
Alpha Tester, Players, In AlfaTesters
2,185 posts
6,367 battles
2 hours ago, ImperialAdmiral said:

On first page we have thread to buff and to nerf Worcester.

 

Jesus f Christ. Decide people.

And "Leave Worcester as it is" topic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PARAZ]
Players
46 posts
15,183 battles
3 hours ago, Boris_MNE said:

Worcester can tank.... OK...

 

XD facepalm

(TTT) MFour, trying to kill a worcester in yamato, for 3 salvos at 12-14km. He said in chat thereafter: "Worcester is tankier than a Des Moines. Maybe HE spam will be its weakness"

My experience ~30 games: There are ways to catch a citadel. Every citadel I got though was either from a DM, from which you cannot angle, and from BBs that hit you on like 45°. So it can hit you on side, fall down and arm. If you are angled past 30° you will get pens at most. If you are at 0° you don't care at all about BB shells that are not from Republique or Yamato. While beeing completely broadside to a Republique at 13km, and beeing broadside to a Conqueror at 6km for 2 shots (did it on purpose, and he was 'smart' enough to shoot AP) did altogether only 20k damage. While I have gotten 120k damage with HE on him btw.

But I really appreciate your facepalm, you know obviously what I am talking about

4 hours ago, ImperialAdmiral said:

On first page we have thread to buff and to nerf Worcester.

 

Jesus f Christ. Decide people.

Did you even read that thread? It says exactly the oposite, a troll making fun of how NOT underwhelming worcester is. Ty for your reasearch. I would have posted something in that thread, but there is only trolling, so I assumed the smart guys will see the difference.

 


As for 2 weeks of waiting, you can do that. But keep in mind that if a ship just wrecks anyone else in the right hands, it should be balanced around the best guys, not the potatoes . And the 'best' guys I assume will not play it as an atlanta/bigger cleveland. My point is, we can argue about it's balance if it is only a stationary big atlanta. Whether it needs some tweeks, more/less dmp, whatever. But right now as it is, it is essentially a close range Zao on steroids at the same time. But as I said if you let it be as it is, don't see it's potential and allow me and my teammates dominate the game just because we got the OP point of it (countering flanking dds; countering flanking zaos; ultimate counter to campers, especially behind rocks; general counter of dds just by not sitting behind islands but getting into the cap to activly surprise radar dds. It especially counters 'bow tanking' Des Moines that cannot hit a moving worcester, while worcester hits it. FFS It can even contest caps! Reverse back in, get spotted by a rushing dd, pop radar, move out. Thanks to the turret traverse and turret placement (all guns can shoot behind easily, not like a DM) easy done.
It was advertised as more or less HE focussed Des Moines. And if it was only that I would not talk about balance issues. But it is much, much more. And these additional abilities mentioned above were not directly provided by stats. The ship was balanced by stats compared to other ships, but not by potential to use it (Henry was balanced by gameplay/potential, statswise it is utter garbage). Whether every potato can realize that potential is up to them, but if a good Worcester dominates the match as good as a unicum vs potato CV, all of you should have issues with it. 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
1,589 posts
13,507 battles

Can't see any reason its OP. 152mm guns with superfloaty arcs, no torps so its easy to rush down and kill, garbage armor and horrible AP. 

Have not played it yet, but i have played against a bunch of them. Seems like EZ kills to me. 

 

Probably a pain if you play high tier CV's, but then again i don't feel sorry for you if you do. :Smile_hiding:

 

2 hours ago, DataDemon said:

(TTT) MFour, trying to kill a worcester in yamato, for 3 salvos at 12-14km. He said in chat thereafter: "Worcester is tankier than a Des Moines. Maybe HE spam will be its weakness"

 

That sounds VERY much like bad RNG. I "deleted" one with my Yamato with one salvo yesterday. 30k dmg or something. He was also kiting and was angled at 14-15 km. So it might just be that MFour was unlucky. 

 

Don't think anyone can say that Worcester is OP at this point. Needs more data. Like i said. I have found them to be easy to kill so far. 

  • Cool 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
16,875 posts
11,568 battles
3 hours ago, Sargento_YO said:

Its frigging OP, 3500 damage per second with AA guns?? WTF!!

Caress her with some HE...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,169 posts
3 hours ago, Sargento_YO said:

Its frigging OP, 3500 damage per second with AA guns?? WTF!!

 

Why would you care? You're never going to face one in the mid tier CV's you club seals in,

  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TTT]
Players
4,253 posts
7,934 battles
3 hours ago, DataDemon said:

(TTT) MFour, trying to kill a worcester in yamato, for 3 salvos at 12-14km. He said in chat thereafter: "Worcester is tankier than a Des Moines. Maybe HE spam will be its weakness"

 

tankier than Des Memes isnt exactly saying much... that's true for... what? half the T9 cruisers in the game?

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
1,589 posts
13,507 battles
25 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

tankier than Des Memes isnt exactly saying much... that's true for... what? half the T9 cruisers in the game?

DM has the best armor in the game. Its called "island armor" :Smile_teethhappy:

  • Cool 1
  • Funny 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderator
1,548 posts
10,140 battles
4 hours ago, DataDemon said:

(TTT) MFour, trying to kill a worcester in yamato, for 3 salvos at 12-14km. He said in chat thereafter: "Worcester is tankier than a Des Moines. Maybe HE spam will be its weakness"

My experience ~30 games: There are ways to catch a citadel. Every citadel I got though was either from a DM, from which you cannot angle, and from BBs that hit you on like 45°. So it can hit you on side, fall down and arm. If you are angled past 30° you will get pens at most. If you are at 0° you don't care at all about BB shells that are not from Republique or Yamato. While beeing completely broadside to a Republique at 13km, and beeing broadside to a Conqueror at 6km for 2 shots (did it on purpose, and he was 'smart' enough to shoot AP) did altogether only 20k damage. While I have gotten 120k damage with HE on him btw.

But I really appreciate your facepalm, you know obviously what I am talking about

 

So if 100 unicums instantly free exped to get it, game should be balanced around them right?

 

You will see in one month , when Worchester get lowest survivabilty rate after potatoes unlock her.

  • Cool 6
  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PARAZ]
Players
46 posts
15,183 battles
7 hours ago, Tyrendian89 said:

tankier than Des Memes isnt exactly saying much... that's true for... what? half the T9 cruisers in the game?

I mean you can ask him yourself, but it was like 2 Worcester in a division, with bad stats btw (I was MFour's side and we had a MM monitor in our div) who were just constantly spamming him, even pushing. He shot as I said 3 times at one of them, who was activly pushing and hardly doging. In the end all he got was to get him from 30k to 10k, 10 of which the worcester could heal with ease. 

 

5 hours ago, Boris_MNE said:

 

So if 100 unicums instantly free exped to get it, game should be balanced around them right?

 

You will see in one month , when Worchester get lowest survivabilty rate after potatoes unlock her.

As for this, is Conqueror balanced just because most of the players you encounter in it cannot play anyway? So what if only the top 100 unicums have a crazy winrate in it, while everyone else just sucks. Is it fair and balanced then? If so noone would complain about CVs, where let's say only 15% can play properly.
Actually that would be even worse if bad worcesters would be 1 shot while top worcester would dominate the game. Then anytime you see a worcester you would pray to rngesus that you don't have the potato in your team, same as you do in CVs. 

And as in general, the game should be balanced around the potential of the ship. It is your job as a player to get the most out of it. Therefore, for competitive balance reasons, something WG does care of, it does not matter whether the ship is played only by 100 super unicums or around the whole playerbase. The very best 100 worcester player should have on average same impact on the (e.g. random) game as top 100 Hindenburg players. And if you would read carefully I did never compare the results of Worcester to the average results of other ships, but instead compare the potential of T10 cruisers, even with best players in it, to the potential of a worcester.

Ps: tested Wocester in CWs tonight. Ofc that does mean not much, since HAMI is one of the Top 10-20 clans anyway, so you can argue it does not depend on the ship setup. But playing without dds, only with 2 worcesters to spot (and btw tank everything while they might radar a dd), they did survive quite a punch. They were hardly the first ships to die, even beeing the first ships in line. And you cannot tell me in CWs there are no good players. (15 games, 5 of these were against Season 2 Hurricane clans)

  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NOHE]
[NOHE]
Players
239 posts
5,227 battles
15 minutes ago, DataDemon said:

As for this, is Conqueror balanced just because most of the players you encounter in it cannot play anyway?

Ask yourself which is more idiot proof, conqueror or Worcester?

 

Contrary to Conqueror, Worcester doesn't allow you to make any mistakes.

  • Cool 2
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TTT]
[TTT]
Players
58 posts
15,202 battles

I remember that battle with the 2 Worcesters, I don't think they were necessarily OP. I was having some terrible RNG and that ship seems to be extremely good at exploiting terrible RNG from high caliber guns. A DM would at least eat tons of pens, but with a citadel that's half as high as a DM's and less armor in general the Worcester can be really frustrating to shoot at unless you hit that cit.

 

I guess the citadel height difference between the DM and the Worcester is a bit dumb, but between nerfing the Worcester citadel and buffing the DM citadel I'd pick the DM buff.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
4,291 posts
11,774 battles

From what I've seen on YT and in combat, this ship is extremely situational. Even more so than Atlanta is. So my preliminary advice is not to nerf it at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
502 posts
7,904 battles

I had difficult times in DDs VS worcester but not looking OP to me. Radar is still BS! The only problem I got was my team not blapping the worchester chasing me in open water. It happens 3 times: WTF why u BBs don't like to shoot to a worchester ??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PARAZ]
Beta Tester
9,215 posts
14,969 battles

Learned in a few CV games that even in an air defense role Worcester kinda fails unless supported by smoke.

Last time I met one I kept a squad just outside 8km of the island he was camping behind. He started firing, thus enabling my planes to spot him, then got instakilled by all the BBs on his flank gunning for him.

 

Ironically that makes a CV the worst nightmare for a Worcester just as I predicted.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Community Contributor, Beta Tester
405 posts
18,310 battles

"but you have to admit it is slightly OP"

No, its not even slightly OP. Maybe in therms of AA. But not even close to OP when it comes to anything else.
 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
4,525 posts
9,851 battles
On 30/06/2018 at 11:33 PM, DataDemon said:

As for this, is Conqueror balanced just because most of the players you encounter in it cannot play anyway?

 

I'd rather say the opposite, the conqueror is only as strong as it is in randoms because of the players it faces, not the players in the ship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
465 posts
5,039 battles

I expected the IFHE mass spam to be a problem, but could not predict eating 60k bow on and getting 7 consecutive fires on me, all in 2 minutes.

 

When a team holds the flank and the Worcester has an island spot that allows him to shoot unspotted, it's definitely just a case of leaving you finger on the left mouse button to delete any ship. It can even sit broadside and rarely eat citadels. The steep gun elevation means that even medium islands can be bugged closely and still allow the shells to go past it in the 10+ Km range, in spots previously impossible for Minos and DMs.

 

The IFHE HE spam will be again a major talking point in the forums for a long time. This is a lightly armoured Hindi with insane rate of fire and AA. I see major Randoms impact, but little space in the competitive meta due to efficient spotting tactics. With the Worcester the Minotaur only has the smoke going for it. While the Mino has to focus a target to take it down the Worcester can just cycle fires between targets and deal a lot more damage. I expect the damage record in the servers to be broken very quickly, very soon by someone sailing the Worcester. In fact, a division of Worcester, CV and a US DD can be the prime candidate for achieving that record.

 

In terms of the topic matter, the IFHe already allows for some insane consistent damage on any target in any angle, so the fire chance just feels like almost an added bonus. Don't know the average shatter rate with IFHE in the bracket, but it definitely feels like any significant fire chance with that rate of fire is just too much. Does it have the same fire chance of the Akizuki line? It feels like it has more somehow, but I may be mistaken.

  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×