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walter3kurtz

Cyclones [poll]

Cyclones  

146 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you want cyclones in the game?

    • Yes
      92
    • No
      54

44 comments in this topic

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Personally I hate it. Every ship that depends on range, is punished for no reason. If you worked hard to secure a cap advantage it's now gone because everyone will just converge on the same point and you do not even get a warning. Cyclones are a form of equalizer, removing tactics, skill and planning from the game in favor of "lel let's brawl". I wish they would remove this (together with other useless RNG stuff like detonations, but that's a different subject).

 

Simple poll, feel free to post what you like about cyclones. I'm curious find out the reasons.

 

 

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The only bad thing about Cyclones is that it benefits certain classes a whole lot more. Still, I'm fine with them and I'm of the opinion that they don't remove tactics, they change them. and whoever manages to adapt better wins. Brawling is a tactic too.

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1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

The only bad thing about Cyclones is that it benefits certain classes a whole lot more. Still, I'm fine with them and I'm of the opinion that they don't remove tactics, they change them. and whoever manages to adapt better wins. Brawling is a tactic too.

^This^

 

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My fully concealment build Moskva with 13.8km detectability and 11.7km radar... LOVES! no no.. ADORES!!! the cyclones!

 

On the other hand,

Cyclone makes a dramatic changes in the game environment, and you have to adapt and overcome these changes,

Tactics changes a lot! especially for DDs.. Cyclone makes it very hard for DDs to play, and from another angle, makes it very easy...

For cruisers, you have to get close to BBs.. that is bad..

I think cyclone is the best when you are in a BB..

 

but I love them,

I love how the moron in conq at the far south border, doesn't care the cyclone warning, how he/she tries to come close in the cyclone, being completely useles for minutes..

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2 hours ago, walter3kurtz said:

Cyclones are a form of equalizer, removing tactics, skill and planning from the game in favor of "lel let's brawl".

Equalizer? Hardly.

The BB out of position sniping at 20km? Now can't do anything.

The bunch of headless chickens that pushes one by one (because who needs to re-group in the mode that makes long-range support impossible, right)? Screwed for their stupidity, nothing else.

 

There are problems with Cyclones, don't get me wrong. The most important ones are:

 - BBs gain big advantage over cruisers

and

 - Radars are too powerful

 

but overall - while Cyclones allow for dramatic turnarounds of the battle - it's not because they are an "equalizer", just the opposite: the team incapable of adapting to the situation is punished hard for this crucial skill deficiency.

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I like that they change the pace of the game.

I also like that they are pretty rare :fish_haloween:

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I'm a cruiser main so I don't enjoy cyclones very much.

Other people have already stated the reason why cruisers are at a disadvantage in this thread - and the many other threads that we have had on this subject.
 

To balance things out, WG should make a mode where cruisers get to have the advantage over all other ships.

 

Call it  "Anti Cyclone" :Smile_Default:

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Without cyclones the game will get a lot more boring than it is now. And thats the last thing it needs.

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4 hours ago, Riselotte said:

I'm of the opinion that they don't remove tactics, they change them. and whoever manages to adapt better wins. Brawling is a tactic too.

 

Sure brawling is a tactic, but not a viable one for RU DD's, all long range cruisers, BB with bad turret traverse and turning radius, and so on. Also when there's only one possibility, you can hardly call it tactics. You're just rolling with the punches and see what remains for you in the end. If you're in an unsuitable ship, well bad luck the game just decided that the other team should probably win. 

 

Judt to add, I don't feel I'm necessarily at an advantage in a BB. You lose 5km of the range in which you are normally totally deadly.

 

2 hours ago, eliastion said:

Equalizer? Hardly.

The BB out of position sniping at 20km? Now can't do anything.

The bunch of headless chickens that pushes one by one (because who needs to re-group in the mode that makes long-range support impossible, right)? Screwed for their stupidity, nothing else.

 

There are problems with Cyclones, don't get me wrong. The most important ones are:

 - BBs gain big advantage over cruisers

and

 - Radars are too powerful

 

but overall - while Cyclones allow for dramatic turnarounds of the battle - it's not because they are an "equalizer", just the opposite: the team incapable of adapting to the situation is punished hard for this crucial skill deficiency.

 

It equalizes the skill difference that you could normally put to work by utilizing minimmap, concealment, range, planning 5 steps ahead etc. When a cyclone hits you are suddenly someone that doesn't look further than the 8km that you happen to see right in front of you (aka potato vision).

 

There is hardly any way for a smart player to use a cyclone to his advantage (outside of knowing you're in a brawler ship against a non brawler and you just abuse that coincidental advantage).

 

2 hours ago, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

and the many other threads that we have had on this subject.

 

Ah, I didn't really notice many threads on the subject but I'm sure there must be indeed.

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53 minutes ago, walter3kurtz said:

It equalizes the skill difference that you could normally put to work by utilizing minimmap, concealment, range, planning 5 steps ahead etc.

Like hell it does. Cyclone comes with forewarning and it's EXTREMELY vulnerable to good or bad positioning (you know, that thing that's arguably the hardest and most skill-dependent part of the game) because being in bad position means that you're useless and/or that you can't be helped by your faraway teammates.

 

57 minutes ago, walter3kurtz said:

When a cyclone hits you are suddenly someone that doesn't look further than the 8km that you happen to see right in front of you (aka potato vision).

You are not-so-suddenly someone who can't SHOOT and SPOT further than 8km. Your minimap still works. Your situational awareness is as important as ever. The ability to gauge the position of your allies and anticipate position of enemies is more important than ever because once you enter spotting range, there's no saving you if you f*cked up. I've seen plenty matches thrown during Cyclones, but not because suddenly all skill was equalized - it was because the winning side was full of potatoes with zero situational awareness, engaging multiple enemies while separated from teammates, leading to 1v2, 1v3 engagements where no ally was capable of lending them a hand.

 

1 hour ago, walter3kurtz said:

Sure brawling is a tactic, but not a viable one for RU DD's, all long range cruisers, BB with bad turret traverse and turning radius, and so on.

That's why you don't enter "fair" 1v1 fights when sailing a RU DD, a long-range cruiser or a BB with bad turret traverse (especially with guns pointing the opposite way to the enemy). On the other hand:

1. RU DD can skirt the edge of 8km radius, with a flick of rudder disappearing when a BB turns her guns towards her. DDs in general (and tanky, visible but fast RU DDs more than anyone) can also benefit from the fact that enemies can't count on middle- and long-range support, making torp drive-bys more viable (when you find a BB out of position, you can rush her without getting shot at by the whole remaining enemy team)

2. Long range cruisers (that usually have devastating short-range armament but are just too vulnerable) can get a drop on enemies, flanking them suddenly and (like RU DD) still retaining the ability to disengage quickly if the enemy tries to focus on them.

3. Don't make me laugh with BBs. Yes, brawling BBs have advantage over non-brawlers when Cyclone strikes, but that's about it. Unlike cruisers that need less obvious approach, non-brawling BBs are still extremely dangerous (especially to cruisers) while losing one of their big downsides (concealment disadvantage). Not being the biggest beneficient of Cyclone doesn't mean they don't benefit from it. Unless, that is, the long-range BB finds herself completely out of position as the Cyclone starts and spends a couple minutes getting anywhere near the enemies (or allies).

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2 hours ago, walter3kurtz said:

 

Sure brawling is a tactic, but not a viable one for RU DD's, all long range cruisers, BB with bad turret traverse and turning radius, and so on. Also when there's only one possibility, you can hardly call it tactics. You're just rolling with the punches and see what remains for you in the end. If you're in an unsuitable ship, well bad luck the game just decided that the other team should probably win. 

RU DDs still have torps and with 8 km detection range and Russian speed, you can actually make torp rushes if planned well. Cyclones are more of an issue for cruisers and even there, it's a matter of adapting. Don't go alone, try to predict enemy movements, potentially go for the torp rush. Load AP, because likely at 8 km range, you are better off with that. Even the clumsiest of cruisers with the worst brawling qualites, the Russians, have a tool to abuse cyclones, which is called radar.

3 hours ago, walter3kurtz said:

Judt to add, I don't feel I'm necessarily at an advantage in a BB. You lose 5km of the range in which you are normally totally deadly.

I don't know how you can't see the advantage of 8 km spotting range. No longer will you get HE spammed from long range. Any cruiser getting to 8 km away from you is at the range where you can comfortably hit them.

3 hours ago, walter3kurtz said:

It equalizes the skill difference that you could normally put to work by utilizing minimmap, concealment, range, planning 5 steps ahead etc. When a cyclone hits you are suddenly someone that doesn't look further than the 8km that you happen to see right in front of you (aka potato vision).

 

There is hardly any way for a smart player to use a cyclone to his advantage (outside of knowing you're in a brawler ship against a non brawler and you just abuse that coincidental advantage).

No, it just needs a different mindset. As elastion stated, being able to predict the moves of opponents is now more critical than ever and mistakes can get punished harder than usual. 

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On 6/28/2018 at 1:41 PM, Excavatus said:

For cruisers, you have to get close to BBs.. that is bad..

 

No, that's it's good.

you only have to be the best you can be during 2 to 4 kms, sometimes even less (IJN). and if you manage to survive the two salvos, you can get even closer and their guns stop working (transverse speed) and you can drop torps on it. you'll be eating a lot less damage then.

That's RU CLs  for you.

way better than approaching for 10 kms angled .

 

Ofc, ships like Shchors the probability it's even lower but I made it . Plus the Cyclone works against you, but if you stay in a group, maybe, just maybe you can get away with that.

Outside Cyclones I only made it twice with Shchors, both of them against king George V and with islands and in desperation. like no more way to go.

and I was blapped  in both of them, but I survived time enough to fire the death blow and watch them burn.

 

But I like cyclones.

 

 

19 hours ago, Riselotte said:

with the worst brawling qualites, the Russians,

excuse me?

Buddy it's Russian and it can brawl.

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3 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

excuse me?

Buddy it's Russian and it can brawl.

Budyonny is hardly your typical Russian cruiser. Apart from it, after Kirov they mostly have no armour to withstand a beating (except Moskva), they have mostly 4 km suicide torps (except Donskoi and Moskva) and turning circles that are only beaten by the carriers at their tiers. If you run into a BB at 8 km with a Kirov, Shchors, Chapa Donskoi or Moskva, you better hope the enemy is going to let you live.

 

And even then, Budyonny isn't some T6 Hipper that will bounce BB shells and has 6 torps per side.

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I would rather they removed standard battles instead of cyclones.

Cyclones provides something different. Standard battles don't.

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34 minutes ago, siramra said:

I would rather they removed standard battles instead of cyclones.

Cyclones provides something different. Standard battles don't.

Totally agree. Standard battles are mega boring, at least cyclone forces each team to alter tactics.

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1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

Budyonny is hardly your typical Russian cruiser. Apart from it, after Kirov they mostly have no armour to withstand a beating (except Moskva), they have mostly 4 km suicide torps (except Donskoi and Moskva) and turning circles that are only beaten by the carriers at their tiers. If you run into a BB at 8 km with a Kirov, Shchors, Chapa Donskoi or Moskva, you better hope the enemy is going to let you live.

 

And even then, Budyonny isn't some T6 Hipper that will bounce BB shells and has 6 torps per side.

that's better.

Buddy it's in a league of it's own.:cap_like:

 

 

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I love cyclones because they make all those potato BB :etc_swear: finally move closer and play the objective.

 

Although weren't cyclones slated to be replaced by localized weather effects?

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16 hours ago, Riselotte said:

RU DDs still have torps and with 8 km detection range and Russian speed, you can actually make torp rushes if planned well.

 

RU DD's depend on guns 95%, using the pathetic range torps for a suicide run smells like desperation instead of smart play. You're giving up 75% or more of your HP for a possible kill on 1 ship (if he is alone which is probably not the case). I could normally take 75% of an enemy ship without losing 10% HP myself. Yes you *can*  make *something*  work but you don't need to explain that to me. Cruisers suffer from the same problem.

 

Quote

I don't know how you can't see the advantage of 8 km spotting range. No longer will you get HE spammed from long range. Any cruiser getting to 8 km away from you is at the range where you can comfortably hit them.

No, it just needs a different mindset. As elastion stated, being able to predict the moves of opponents is now more critical than ever and mistakes can get punished harder than usual.

 

BB's suffer from the fact that they are no longer able to support and they lose a good chunk of the range where they are still accurate enough for dev strikes. If you play a BB well, you position where you can cover large parts of the caps and get broadsides on enemies pushing. Now you're just a big fat cow waiting for close up action. HE spam is not an issue without cyclones, if you get farmed by multiple cruisers you are in the wrong spot.

 

18 hours ago, eliastion said:

Like hell it does. Cyclone comes with forewarning and it's EXTREMELY vulnerable to good or bad positioning (you know, that thing that's arguably the hardest and most skill-dependent part of the game) because being in bad position means that you're useless and/or that you can't be helped by your faraway teammates.

 

LOL ok. tell me something I don't know. Point is, with information available being halved or worse, "bad" positing because influenced by guessing and luck. This takes away the awareness advantage you have over others in normal situations.

 

Quote

You are not-so-suddenly someone who can't SHOOT and SPOT further than 8km. Your minimap still works. Your situational awareness is as important as ever. The ability to gauge the position of your allies and anticipate position of enemies is more important than ever because once you enter spotting range, there's no saving you if you f*cked up. I've seen plenty matches thrown during Cyclones, but not because suddenly all skill was equalized - it was because the winning side was full of potatoes with zero situational awareness, engaging multiple enemies while separated from teammates, leading to 1v2, 1v3 engagements where no ally was capable of lending them a hand.

 

How are you spotting past 8km? Minimap is sketchy, maybe bugged for CV especially then. For the rest you're again using an argument that is unconvincing. Yes the better player is more likely to come out victorious, but that's not the point. The point is that the better player loses a lot of the tools normally available (range, concealment, shooting over islands, supporting allies against targets beyond 8km, map awareness (decreased information) and not rushing in like a headless chicken).

 

Quote

That's why you don't enter "fair" 1v1 fights when sailing a RU DD, a long-range cruiser or a BB with bad turret traverse (especially with guns pointing the opposite way to the enemy). On the other hand:

 

What do you mean, not enter a fair fight? The whole point is that you are forced to take an unfair fight because the game says you cannot use the usual strengths for the ship anymore.

 

Quote

1. RU DD can skirt the edge of 8km radius, with a flick of rudder disappearing when a BB turns her guns towards her. DDs in general (and tanky, visible but fast RU DDs more than anyone) can also benefit from the fact that enemies can't count on middle- and long-range support, making torp drive-bys more viable (when you find a BB out of position, you can rush her without getting shot at by the whole remaining enemy team)

 

Yeah, you go and "flick" into detection radius for a salvo or two. Seems really effective.

 

Quote

2. Long range cruisers (that usually have devastating short-range armament but are just too vulnerable) can get a drop on enemies, flanking them suddenly and (like RU DD) still retaining the ability to disengage quickly if the enemy tries to focus on them.

 

Oh so now suddenly cruisers are at an advantage? Look, the fact that a cruiser *could* in theory get some advantage is not important. What matters is that you either have to capitalize on some unlikely scenario of getting broadsides and hope there are no full health BB or other ships around, or do [edited] all. You lost your long range capabilities and now you're hoping for a lucky break.
 

Quote

3. Don't make me laugh with BBs. Yes, brawling BBs have advantage over non-brawlers when Cyclone strikes, but that's about it. Unlike cruisers that need less obvious approach, non-brawling BBs are still extremely dangerous (especially to cruisers) while losing one of their big downsides (concealment disadvantage). Not being the biggest beneficient of Cyclone doesn't mean they don't benefit from it. Unless, that is, the long-range BB finds herself completely out of position as the Cyclone starts and spends a couple minutes getting anywhere near the enemies (or allies).

 

It seems like you can't make up your mind. So RU DD's can totally rush in for a torp run, but at the same time no BB is in danger and every long range cruiser is able to get broadsides but cannot deal with any BB. You're all over the place man. What you are doing is summing up theoretical chances that any class could capitalize on a cyclone, which is just not relevant to the fact that cyclones pigeon hole you into a make or break situation.

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I don't mind Cyclones. They have on occasion saved me from being sunk as a DD player... I usually then change my style of play and shadow allies until they detect an enemy then rush in for a torpedo attack whilst the enemy concentrates on the spotting ship. It does prove a valuable aid...

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21 hours ago, eliastion said:

Equalizer? Hardly.

The BB out of position sniping at 20km? Now can't do anything.

The bunch of headless chickens that pushes one by one (because who needs to re-group in the mode that makes long-range support impossible, right)? Screwed for their stupidity, nothing else.

 

There are problems with Cyclones, don't get me wrong. The most important ones are:

 - BBs gain big advantage over cruisers

and

 - Radars are too powerful

 

but overall - while Cyclones allow for dramatic turnarounds of the battle - it's not because they are an "equalizer", just the opposite: the team incapable of adapting to the situation is punished hard for this crucial skill deficiency.

You forgot that CV become almost useless.. Planes cant spot a ship till they are on top of it. But Cyclone douse not have any effect on the ship spotting planes or the Ships AA against those planes...

 

ON topic NO

 

Keep Cyclones.

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11 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

I love cyclones because they make all those potato BB :etc_swear: finally move closer and play the objective.

 

Although weren't cyclones slated to be replaced by localized weather effects?

Let say the truth you love cyclones because you can devastate aa ships with your planes without suffering losses, yhea every cv capitan love cyclones and the funny thing is that in 3year i follow this forum noone have ever pointed out how silly op cv's become during cyclones , too late now anyway with the incoming cv rework noone care about it

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17 minutes ago, Torped1ne said:

Let say the truth you love cyclones because you can devastate aa ships with your planes without suffering losses

 

Because clearly I only play CVs. :fish_palm:

 

Also I pointed that out years ago but ofc WG doesn't listen to skilled CV players.

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6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Because clearly I only play CVs. :fish_palm:

 

Also I pointed that out years ago but ofc WG doesn't listen to skilled CV players.

Was kidding of course , i used you to say it out i've hold myself from writing it from so long to see if between all the moanings against cv's someone was aware enught to see that , but at the end no i've got to say it by myself, miss to read when you said that sadly

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