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callumwaw

An EASY way to fix radar problems

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How Wargaming came up with the idea of a radar (or hydro, for that matter) that works through land masses will remain a mystery that will, perhaps, be solved by future generations. Maybe if the western world had access to stalinium, things would be different, but with our current state of technology radar does not work through rock. 

 

If you do your job as a DD and try to cap, you get radared, focus-fired and killed. If you try to spot ahead of the fleet, like a DD should, the moment they see they're spotted they turn on radar, focus fire you and you're dead. If you put up a smokescreen, like the good DD that you are, you get radared, you're totally blind in the smoke, they focus-fire you without any possibility for you to retaliate and you're dead.

 

So the only way to play a DD, whose main role should be scouting and capping,  is NOT to scout or cap but linger kind of in the middle of the fleet and wait until the enemies start firing at other ships. 

 

It's boring. It's unrealistic. It's not what used to make DDs so much fun. 

 

Reducing the range of the radar consumable would be one way of fixing this problem but that would only cause endless discussion about how much to reduce it by. Everybody would whine about their favourite radar ship being nerfed too much. And in fact it's not radar per se that is OP but the ability of ships to stay safely tucked behind island while radaring everything for their teammates. 

 

An extremely easy way to fix radar (and make it more realistic and less science-fiction-stronk-russian-stalinium-radar-like) would be to make it work on a line-of-sight basis, like the regular spotting mechanic (and like in real life). You're behind an island? Sorry, your radar won't show what's on the other side. Have the guts and go around that corner if you want to spot with radar. 

 

I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult for the software developers to implement, as they already must have a mechanic of determining if there is a line of sight. 

 

What do you think guys? And is there any chance that Wargaming people read this forum? 

 

 

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This has been brought up time and time again, WG say "NO"

Official reason - too complicated for the average potato.

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How about you stop making threads about stuff that has been said a million times?

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Sound like a lame excuse to me. 

 

If the average potato is able to comprehend how regular spotting works (=line of sight), they why can't they understand that radar would work the same way? :) 

 

This is truly World-of-Science-Fiction-Warships :) 

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How about you stop making asinine comments and do something to improve the situation, domen3? 

 

If we don't keep bringing this up, Wargaming will think everybody's happy. 

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2 minutes ago, callumwaw said:

Sound like a lame excuse to me. 

 

If the average potato is able to comprehend how regular spotting works (=line of sight), they why can't they understand that radar would work the same way? :) 

 

This is truly World-of-Science-Fiction-Warships :) 

 

That's the thing. Considering "muh, why can't I see ship XY in the open sea" threads which appear from time to time or respective ingame comments, the average potato does not necessarily comprehend how the spotting system works.

 

And don't play the realism card just because it seems convinient for a certain subject. Else you get one, two at most, torpedoe salvoe on your DDs for the entire battle and I doubt that this is in your interest.

WoWS is not a simulator and never claimed to be one. Game balance and possibilities to implement certain game mechanic > realism.

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21 minutes ago, callumwaw said:

How about you stop making asinine comments and do something to improve the situation, domen3? 

 

If we don't keep bringing this up, Wargaming will think everybody's happy. 

 

If you keep spamming threads on the same subject which has been discussed countless times and WG have said a clear "NO" to then all you do is make an annoyance of yourself. It won't improve the situation, just make people ignore your posts.

WG know some people hate the radar mechanics, it's not a mystery that will be exposed by multiple moan threads.

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46 minutes ago, callumwaw said:

How Wargaming came up with the idea of a radar (or hydro, for that matter) that works through land masses will remain a mystery that will, perhaps, be solved by future generations. Maybe if the western world had access to stalinium, things would be different, but with our current state of technology radar does not work through rock. 

 

If you do your job as a DD and try to cap, you get radared, focus-fired and killed. If you try to spot ahead of the fleet, like a DD should, the moment they see they're spotted they turn on radar, focus fire you and you're dead. If you put up a smokescreen, like the good DD that you are, you get radared, you're totally blind in the smoke, they focus-fire you without any possibility for you to retaliate and you're dead.

 

So the only way to play a DD, whose main role should be scouting and capping,  is NOT to scout or cap but linger kind of in the middle of the fleet and wait until the enemies start firing at other ships. 

 

It's boring. It's unrealistic. It's not what used to make DDs so much fun. 

 

Reducing the range of the radar consumable would be one way of fixing this problem but that would only cause endless discussion about how much to reduce it by. Everybody would whine about their favourite radar ship being nerfed too much. And in fact it's not radar per se that is OP but the ability of ships to stay safely tucked behind island while radaring everything for their teammates. 

 

An extremely easy way to fix radar (and make it more realistic and less science-fiction-stronk-russian-stalinium-radar-like) would be to make it work on a line-of-sight basis, like the regular spotting mechanic (and like in real life). You're behind an island? Sorry, your radar won't show what's on the other side. Have the guts and go around that corner if you want to spot with radar. 

 

I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult for the software developers to implement, as they already must have a mechanic of determining if there is a line of sight. 

 

What do you think guys? And is there any chance that Wargaming people read this forum? 

 

 

They read it, they know it (it is not new) and will not change it. DD can still do their job. If you cannot, maybe DD are not for you.

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15 minutes ago, callumwaw said:

How about you stop making asinine comments and do something to improve the situation, domen3? 

 

If we don't keep bringing this up, Wargaming will think everybody's happy. 

Thing is, you're late to the party, this has been discussed endlessly.over the last week or 2, WG are well aware of the views of people on here and have said No. Repeat threads does nothing more than clog up the forum or turns into heated discussion between those that think it's impossible to play a DD anymore and those who learn to adapt to it.

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48 minutes ago, callumwaw said:

How Wargaming came up with the idea of a radar (or hydro, for that matter) that works through land masses will remain a mystery that will, perhaps, be solved by future generations. Maybe if the western world had access to stalinium, things would be different, but with our current state of technology radar does not work through rock. 

 

If you do your job as a DD and try to cap, you get radared, focus-fired and killed. If you try to spot ahead of the fleet, like a DD should, the moment they see they're spotted they turn on radar, focus fire you and you're dead. If you put up a smokescreen, like the good DD that you are, you get radared, you're totally blind in the smoke, they focus-fire you without any possibility for you to retaliate and you're dead.

 

So the only way to play a DD, whose main role should be scouting and capping,  is NOT to scout or cap but linger kind of in the middle of the fleet and wait until the enemies start firing at other ships. 

 

It's boring. It's unrealistic. It's not what used to make DDs so much fun. 

 

Reducing the range of the radar consumable would be one way of fixing this problem but that would only cause endless discussion about how much to reduce it by. Everybody would whine about their favourite radar ship being nerfed too much. And in fact it's not radar per se that is OP but the ability of ships to stay safely tucked behind island while radaring everything for their teammates. 

 

An extremely easy way to fix radar (and make it more realistic and less science-fiction-stronk-russian-stalinium-radar-like) would be to make it work on a line-of-sight basis, like the regular spotting mechanic (and like in real life). You're behind an island? Sorry, your radar won't show what's on the other side. Have the guts and go around that corner if you want to spot with radar. 

 

I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult for the software developers to implement, as they already must have a mechanic of determining if there is a line of sight. 

 

What do you think guys? And is there any chance that Wargaming people read this forum? 

 

 

Ok,  real radars do not work through rocks... 

 

Do real target magically vanish if they move 100 meters away? 

 

Do real people see enemies at 10km while sitting in thick smoke screen? 

 

Radar mod 2 is already nerfed from 40% to 20% in patch 0.7.6. which makes it useless for russian ships due to their short duration. 

 

Which reminds me: wargaming would you mind giving us free remove for radar mod 2 when you nerf it? 

 

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@OP , as you can see by the vast majority of people posting here you are the only one with radar problems.

Therefore I suggest you follow the great advice being given here and adapt.

 

Just go play any other of the 3 classes and your problem is gone. I suggest you play BB and in a couple months you won't even remember what DDs are except to come to this same forum and complain about their stealth, fire chance, torpedos and so on. (aka DDs OP pl0x nerf thread).

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55 minutes ago, callumwaw said:

Sound like a lame excuse to me. 

 

If the average potato is able to comprehend how regular spotting works (=line of sight), they why can't they understand that radar would work the same way? :) 

 

This is truly World-of-Science-Fiction-Warships :) 

you would think that, but experience has shown that average potato doesnt undersant line of sight...

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1 hour ago, callumwaw said:

How about you stop making asinine comments and do something to improve the situation, domen3? 

 

If we don't keep bringing this up, Wargaming will think everybody's happy. 

Well the many threads made before got WG's attention and they said NO (no idea why but that's what they said). They already know we're not happy but this isn't helping.

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I asked WG the very same question a while back after posting the very same here on the forum and their reply was that Radar is working as it should. When replying that I had never heard of a radar or hydro that can penetrate solid mass.. their reply was... Never given.

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3 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

I asked WG the very same question a while back after posting the very same here on the forum and their reply was that Radar is working as it should. When replying that I had never heard of a radar or hydro that can penetrate solid mass.. their reply was... Never given.

Perhaps you should answer the questions bellow? 

1 hour ago, Episparh said:

Ok,  real radars do not work through rocks... 

 

Do real target magically vanish if they move 100 meters away? 

 

Do real people see enemies at 10km while sitting in thick smoke screen? 

 

 

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Given the increased number of radars + some OP unnerfable radarships, I wouldn't mind trying this overarching radarnerf. It's been up before and it's pretty intuitive - radars don't penetrate rocks. I don't care whether it's realistic or not, as long it's fairly intuitive for players, it shouldn't be an issue - either solution.

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Warning THIS IS SPECULATION, I HAVE NO EVIDENCE AS I DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE CODE

 

It is possible that the reason Hydro and Radar can see through islands is they coded them as a mechanic to see through obscuring smoke and out of spotting range ships so they totally ignore line of sight to anything in range to make it work.

To change the mechanic would no doubt need some hefty coding or at least some significant effort they see no value in expending.

It doesn't matter how much a few people yell about it on the forums, the mechanics are coded in and they've given a reason (which may seem silly) that they won't be changing it.

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10 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Given the increased number of radars + some OP unnerfable radarships, I wouldn't mind trying this overarching radarnerf. It's been up before and it's pretty intuitive - radars don't penetrate rocks. I don't care whether it's realistic or not, as long it's fairly intuitive for players, it shouldn't be an issue - either solution.

I wouldn't mind wargaming try this mechanics as well :

 

Once detected ship goes undetected if it is out of LoS. 

 

Smoke makes ships sitting inside blind for the targets outside. 

 

Stop doing correlation with real world only when it favours your thesis. It is arcade game play it as it is. 

 

P. S. Look the other thread... "Radar numbers" or whatever was its name. Usually I see games with 3-5 DDs or 2-3 radars. Players' base is same and although this new ships are popular nowadays soon their numbers will decrease as they are not something exceptional strong. The DDs influnce in battle is second only to CV. Do not make it stronger due to temporary increase of some ships due to mission/campaign/new branch. 

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I get that the regulars on the forum are annoyed by seeing the same threads over and over again.
But for the radar situation i believe that people should keep bringing it up.Yes i am a dd main.

And seriusly, there is no need to bash people for not reading the forums 10 times per day like some of us.
Burn them to hell if their thread is utterly stupid, but until stupidity is proven show people some respect.
Also keep in mind that many people will only go to forums to ask questions or post suggestions and wont regularly monitor the forum.
I know i have done it in other games.

Wg said no because devoting development time to nerf radar will net them less money.
If nerfing radar would bring more money they would have already done it.

Also, the part were they said "No we wont change radar" was in the QA right?
A QA that never made it to the news page and was transcripted by a player and posted on the forums.
if on my last 2 sentences i am mistaken, apologies.
 

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8 minutes ago, Episparh said:

I wouldn't mind wargaming try this mechanics as well :

 

Once detected ship goes undetected if it is out of LoS. 

 

Smoke makes ships sitting inside blind for the targets outside. 

 

Stop doing correlation with real world only when it favours your thesis. It is arcade game play it as it is.

Another failure at objective thought. You read things into texts what you expect and want to see. Try again. Read slowly this time.

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Don't argue in an arcarde shooter with realism. This game is far away from realism. Even if I would agree with you, but realism is a really weak argument ^^'

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22 minutes ago, Episparh said:
  16 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

I asked WG the very same question a while back after posting the very same here on the forum and their reply was that Radar is working as it should. When replying that I had never heard of a radar or hydro that can penetrate solid mass.. their reply was... Never given.

This is interesting. It makes me suspect (and I think I saw someone elsewhere on the forum make this point) that the programmers were never given the requirement (that is asked to program) that radar and sonar should not work through rock. This made for an easy implementation of just showing up anything within the sonar/radar circle range. Implementation of a requirement to not see through islands would require the more difficult change of integrating it into the line of sight routines. Hence their reluctance to change it.

 

The clue is in the response "never given", it was never in WG's specification for the addition of radar and sonar into the game.

 

I find the excuse that the players would not understand it to be an insult. Yes you can learn to live with it, but why insult those with an understanding of how things should work. And yes I know that the line of site mechanisms are not totally true to reality, but also not as obviously ridiculous as radaring through kilometres of mountain. 

 

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2 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Another failure at objective thought. You read things into texts what you expect and want to see. Try again. Read slowly this time.

I am very objective. The DDs influence in battle is second only to current CVs. Why should you nerf the only threat this class have? Oh right current state of radars... 

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8 minutes ago, Ouzo11 said:

I get that the regulars on the forum are annoyed by seeing the same threads over and over again.
But for the radar situation i believe that people should keep bringing it up.Yes i am a dd main.

And seriusly, there is no need to bash people for not reading the forums 10 times per day like some of us.
Burn them to hell if their thread is utterly stupid, but until stupidity is proven show people some respect.

Wg said no because devoting development time to nerf radar will net them less money.
If nerfing radar would bring more money they would have already done it.

Also, the part were they said "No we wont change radar" was in the QA right?
A QA that never made it to the news page and was transcripted by a player and posted on the forums.
if on my last 2 sentences i am mistaken, apologies.
 

 

Clearly, contrary to what all the nay-sayers whined about at the beginning of this thread, it is pretty active and people are actually posting meaningful contributions.

 

Ouzo11 thanks for explaining it so aptly: I do have a life outside of WoWS and do not read the forum 10 times a day.  Also, thanks for what you said about respect - some people are clearly encouraged by the apparent anonymity of the web and they say things they wouldn't in real life (unless they wanted their face kicked in). 

As for what WG said or didn't say... My past experience from WoT shows that it doesn't really matter what Wargaming say, they may just as well do the opposite a few patches later. So I concur we should keep bringing it up to make them realise it's important for us. 

The more people complain about it, the more they will realise that at some point it might be worth investing in re-working the system. 

For those of you who play WoT, do you remember the old spotting and rendering system?  WG invested a metric tonne of effort (and money) in completely reworking the system from the bottom up. Which means that much more difficult things than radar have been changed in the past. 

 

As for realism - I'm not expecting realism here, it's not a simulator. But on the one hand they tell us how realistic the armour and penetration models are, and generally boast about their physics etc., while on the other they make an elementary mistake (like this radar thing) that just sticks out like a sore thumb. 

 

The argument that "it's not a simulator, don't expect realism" is not valid. The ships could fly, or  teleport, or shoot guided missiles, but they don't - because the game is supposed to be realistic to the extent that realism doesn't make it unplayable.  Radar that doesn't see through islands would NOT make it unplayable. What it would do is require some cruiser players to actually have some skill rather than just parking behind an island, turning on radar and getting XP for the damage their teammate do to the detected enemies.  (Mind you, I'm saying SOME cruiser players, I'm not trying to say that they all do so.)

 

One or two of you bashed me for not being able to play a DD - naturally, a forum thread without some unfair bashing wouldn't be complete :)   The thing is, I've played DDs quite a lot and did my basic task (scouting & capping) pretty well at lower tiers. It's just when you get into high-tier that it stops being fun as basically all you do in the first half of the battle is make sure you don't go within 10 km of the nearest of the 3 or 4 radar ships. 

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