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Up_The_Donald

Is Edge Surfing Ever OK?

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I just had a random game where I ended up on the edge of the map - not through planning but a mixture of dodging torps and planes etc.  Anyway, I ended up hitting the border and then experiencing the weird things that happen to ships when on the border - the slipping effect and strange sideways movements etc. 

 

I wasn't using this as a deliberate tactic, not least because I was struggling to get away from the edge whilst at the same time trying to stay alive and dodge the incoming fire from 4 or 5 ships.  Anyway, I was called out in the chat for being an "edge-surfer".  I didn't bother replying in the game chat because there is no point but it did make me wonder if it is ever ok to make use of the strange game mechanics if you find yourself in that part of the map as opposed to using it as a deliberate tactic. 

 

Maybe a case of when in Rome?

 

UpTheDonald 

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its valid "tactic" so far.

There should be some punishement for it not just drop of engine power. Increasing main battery reload by 10% for every 5 seconds on map border would be good. Currently there are more or less just buffs for surfing - harder to hit/predict movement for enemy. Drop of engine power isnt so big issue when you need to survive in open as long as possible, map border is perfect place for it.   

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Just now, Quetak said:

its valid "tactic" so far.

There should be some punishement for it not just drop of engine power. Increasing main battery reload by 10% for every 5 seconds on map border would be good. Currently there are more or less just buffs for surfing - harder to hit/predict movement for enemy. Drop of engine power isnt so big issue when you need to survive in open as long as possible, map border is perfect place for it.   

I agree but it does seem unethical to say the least.  It isn't a tactic I've used on purpose but the few times I've found myself in that position I've felt ok about using the advantages of what look like glitches in the system.  Maybe the additional penalties you mention would be a good idea - another option could be to lose any concealment while on the edge so that all ships on the map can see where you are.

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I don't really have an issue with edge surfing enemies. They're usually so far away from the action that you're better off just ignoring them and focusing on winning in other ways.

 

What I do have an issue with are my teammates who can't ignore the edge surfers and take themselves out of the fight by chasing after one enemy that doesn't really contribute much.

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2 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

I don't really have an issue with edge surfing enemies. They're usually so far away from the action that you're better off just ignoring them and focusing on winning in other ways.

 

What I do have an issue with are my teammates who can't ignore the edge surfers and take themselves out of the fight by chasing after one enemy that doesn't really contribute much.

That's exactly what happened to me.  4 or 5 of them focused on me and missed that my team got 3 out 4 caps and they lost the match.  

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as long as you do not make it your standard tactic i dont see the issue.

 

i have done it as well  on occasion because my own team lemmingtrained

and i need to hold a flank almost on my own being hunted into spawn by bb potato's.

 

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It should be punished harder. Not okay to do in most situations.

 

When you are alone and being hunted into the border by half the enemy team ofc it is expected as there are no other realistic course of action

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36 minutes ago, Up_The_Donald said:

I just had a random game where I ended up on the edge of the map - not through planning but a mixture of dodging torps and planes etc.  Anyway, I ended up hitting the border and then experiencing the weird things that happen to ships when on the border - the slipping effect and strange sideways movements etc. 

 

I wasn't using this as a deliberate tactic, not least because I was struggling to get away from the edge whilst at the same time trying to stay alive and dodge the incoming fire from 4 or 5 ships.  Anyway, I was called out in the chat for being an "edge-surfer".  I didn't bother replying in the game chat because there is no point but it did make me wonder if it is ever ok to make use of the strange game mechanics if you find yourself in that part of the map as opposed to using it as a deliberate tactic. 

 

Maybe a case of when in Rome?

 

UpTheDonald 

Sometimes you run out of map.

When five enemies attack you alone, should you sail towards them to make it easier for them to sink you?

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3 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

It should be punished harder. Not okay to do in most situations.

 

When you are alone and being hunted into the border by half the enemy team ofc it is expected as there are no other realistic course of action

Agreed, it can be seriously abused (torpedo dodging, carrier misleading because manual drop is not permitted from outside the map borders, quicker angling etc)

 

think they should make a region where you slow down already, like the current effect of grinding along the white line, and then having the white line itself where you can barely move except when you're trying to get back into the battlefield. 
maybe even make it some kind of current type flow, where you are pushed towards the map again unless youre explicitly trying not to (to prevent things like Yamatos from getting stuck there for 5 battles)

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51 minutes ago, Up_The_Donald said:

I agree but it does seem unethical to say the least.

Ah, the irony Mr. President, the irony.

 

trump4.jpg

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1 hour ago, Up_The_Donald said:

Maybe a case of when in Rome?

 

UpTheDonald 

My teammate (son) does that all the time. No matter if he drives a DD, CL or BB.

Then again, he also rams islands and such. If it didnt cost money we'd change his 'nickname' to MR TUNNELVISION.

 

Sometimes I do it too, but usually because I am in a BB that actually doesn't steer...

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If you run out of map and end up in the map border, well, happens. If you are deliberately running into the map border, well, don't do it, because it is retarded. Not in the sense of "OMG, it abuses the screwy interaction at the border" but more a "You are deliberately gimping your own performance being in a place where you are far away from the objective and also lost most of your engine power".

 

26 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Agreed, it can be seriously abused (torpedo dodging, carrier misleading because manual drop is not permitted from outside the map borders, quicker angling etc)

That's an issue of low-tier CVs only being able to autodrop. Not of the border interaction. Do this crap in a match with CVs that can manual drop and enjoy being the perfect target. Similarly, DDs that know what they are doing will wreck you, long range HE spam will be annoying, any BB that catches your broadside will likely adjust aim and hit your near-stationary ship. If people are not capable of adjusting, they likely would be about as unable to hit you if you used your WASD keys.

 

It really is a minor issue and current punishment is pretty appropriate and I see no real issue there.

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As an added thought: if you are 'hiding' in teh map border or think it has some 'advantages', well no way.

Plenty of times I have WAITED untill a tunnel-visioned dufus got stuck in the border, and then sent him to oblivion.

The moves may be a bit strange, but they are 'predictable' - and quite SLOW. 

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Sure, it can be used legitimately. Maybe you're trying to mess up the enemy's aim, maybe you're trying to avoid a secondary-spec BB for as long as possible and can't get around it, maybe you simply have to keep going forward to the edge because you simply can't afford to turn or slow down. The problem is the BB who do it by default because they're trying to ''snipe'', i.e. avoid damage at all costs even as you team is getting slaughtered.

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Border surfing ships are actually fairly easy to hit. Just aim for the line and compensate his sideways movement.

CVs hate ships sailing near the border (as that makes your TBs incapable of manual dropping close to the target), but someone who's surfing it is ironically very easy to hit. Just attack along the border, depending on AA range and movement of your target you can sometimes even stay out of AA completely while doing so. This is especially effective with IJN TBs as their spread converges, pretty much guaranteeing that all of your torps hit.

 

Thus border surfing quite honestly shouldn't be as frowned upon as it is. Though I guess the hate stems from 90% of the playerbase being thoroughly incapable of hitting border surfing ships despite it being rather easy. You know, just like 90% of the playerbase can't WASD.

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17 hours ago, Up_The_Donald said:

Is Edge Surfing Ever OK?

People who willingly hit the map edge almost always shoot themselves in the foot by doing so.

People who do so unwillingly... well, EDIT happens.

On rare occasions there are some benefits from hitting the blue line - then again, there are also some benefits from ramming full speed into an island. In fact, tactical beaching is much more likely to be useful. Is beaching yourself ever ok?

 

Looong time ago - before the blue line was stealing your engine - the situation was different. Edge surfing allowed ridiculous maneuvers, crazy torepdo and shell dodges etc. But it's just not the case anymore. Since the engine penalty was introduced, edge surfing just isn't a real problem anymore. People really should get over it. One thing that should be fixed is the fact that CVs can't properly manual-drop near the edge, but this is true not just for edge surfers - anyone close enough to the edge is in that situation... and it's just another issue with EDIT up CV UI, not with map edge mechanics.

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15 hours ago, Riselotte said:

If you run out of map and end up in the map border, well, happens. If you are deliberately running into the map border, well, don't do it, because it is retarded. Not in the sense of "OMG, it abuses the screwy interaction at the border" but more a "You are deliberately gimping your own performance being in a place where you are far away from the objective and also lost most of your engine power".

 

That's an issue of low-tier CVs only being able to autodrop. Not of the border interaction. Do this crap in a match with CVs that can manual drop and enjoy being the perfect target. Similarly, DDs that know what they are doing will wreck you, long range HE spam will be annoying, any BB that catches your broadside will likely adjust aim and hit your near-stationary ship. If people are not capable of adjusting, they likely would be about as unable to hit you if you used your WASD keys.

 

It really is a minor issue and current punishment is pretty appropriate and I see no real issue there.

Dude what

 

Try this, you cant manually drop at the map edge- at all. I play the essex, so its not a low tier CV issue. 
So against CVs i often see this abused if people are close to the map edge. 

The entire drop pattern must fall within the white lines when dropping manually (not when auto) , which makes it impossible to drop from the "outside of map" side, effectively giving island cover from one side (except  again for auto drops, but those are really easy to dodge when youre at the map edge)

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29 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Dude what

 

Try this, you cant manually drop at the map edge- at all. I play the essex, so its not a low tier CV issue. 
So against CVs i often see this abused if people are close to the map edge. 

The entire drop pattern must fall within the white lines when dropping manually (not when auto) , which makes it impossible to drop from the "outside of map" side, effectively giving island cover from one side (except  again for auto drops, but those are really easy to dodge when youre at the map edge)

I don't play CV enough to run into this issue, but I trust the judgement of certain people that do.

15 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Border surfing ships are actually fairly easy to hit. Just aim for the line and compensate his sideways movement.

CVs hate ships sailing near the border (as that makes your TBs incapable of manual dropping close to the target), but someone who's surfing it is ironically very easy to hit. Just attack along the border, depending on AA range and movement of your target you can sometimes even stay out of AA completely while doing so. This is especially effective with IJN TBs as their spread converges, pretty much guaranteeing that all of your torps hit.

 

Thus border surfing quite honestly shouldn't be as frowned upon as it is. Though I guess the hate stems from 90% of the playerbase being thoroughly incapable of hitting border surfing ships despite it being rather easy. You know, just like 90% of the playerbase can't WASD.

 

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A good question Lad...  @Up_The_Donald To be honest I don't really know, since I've never dunnit myself. Always figured it would be better to be right in the middle so I can get there quicker and participate in the action better, wherever needed but I guess there are other philosophies to this too. Also depends on the ship. Yamato suffers in close range combat due to atrocious turret traverse (made even worse by some modules) and high citadel so i understand if they stay a bit further away but there are BB's which are better suited to close support too, so I guess it would largely depend on the ship and the map.:cap_old:

 

Though there are players, who are simply gun-shy or something, but let's put those aside for now...:Smile_Default:

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46 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

I don't play CV enough to run into this issue, but I trust the judgement of certain people that do.

 

Hm, interesting. Perhaps i havent given this particular situation enough practice yet then haha

 

Tbh i mostly play USN carriers, much less IJN. 
And with USN i always try to attack form the inner side of a ships turning circle, but thats horrible when i can't go manual on them. 
 

The method described would work in some cases, but far not all- especially not on heavy AA targets that are moving away (welcome to tier 9 CV play) but still i think it might be a good idea that i try it out a bit more. 

Anyway, i didnt mean to write you off completely, its just that i was a bit bugged that you seemed to deny my claim that you cant manual drop at the map border. That issue is even confirmed by your quote & if you'd like i can sometime show you exactly what i mean (show you a replay or whatever)

 

I_Y

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1 minute ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Hm, interesting. Perhaps i havent given this particular situation enough practice yet then haha

 

Tbh i mostly play USN carriers, much less IJN. 
And with USN i always try to attack form the inner side of a ships turning circle, but thats horrible when i can't go manual on them. 
 

The method described would work in some cases, but far not all- especially not on heavy AA targets that are moving away (welcome to tier 9 CV play) but still i think it might be a good idea that i try it out a bit more. 

Anyway, i didnt mean to write you off completely, its just that i was a bit bugged that you seemed to deny my claim that you cant manual drop at the map border. That issue is even confirmed by your quote & if you'd like i can sometime show you exactly what i mean (show you a replay or whatever)

 

I_Y

I do see why it seems frustrating, but I would write this off as a CV UI issue though, not as a border interaction issue. Should be fixed with all the other CV issues, but the border per se seems fine in all other regards.

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1 hour ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Dude what

 

Try this, you cant manually drop at the map edge- at all. I play the essex, so its not a low tier CV issue. 
So against CVs i often see this abused if people are close to the map edge. 

The entire drop pattern must fall within the white lines when dropping manually (not when auto) , which makes it impossible to drop from the "outside of map" side, effectively giving island cover from one side (except  again for auto drops, but those are really easy to dodge when youre at the map edge)

I'm far from a CV player, so take this with a grain of salt, but isn't the border limitation only when you click to place the drop maneuver? Can't you move it around once it's placed so that it's in a more favorable location close to the border?

 

As for the original question.

Nah, border surfing is fine unless you for whatever reason think that ships should just instantly die when they hit the border.

Ships move much slower when in contact with the border and you don't need to take into account any aim other than a point along the border.

Figuring out where along the border to aim is also very logical and follows a simple and very basic rule:

The ship's movement vector is divided into two; perpendicular and parallel to the border. Then the perpendicular vector is disregarded leaving only the parallel one to take into consideration.

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2 minutes ago, Nechrom said:

I'm far from a CV player, so take this with a grain of salt, but isn't the border limitation only when you click to place the drop maneuver? Can't you move it around once it's placed so that it's in a more favorable location close to the border?

 

As for the original question.

Nah, border surfing is fine unless you for whatever reason think that ships should just instantly die when they hit the border.

Ships move much slower when in contact with the border and you don't need to take into account any aim other than a point along the border.

Figuring out where along the border to aim is also very logical and follows a simple and very basic rule:

The ship's movement vector is divided into two; perpendicular and parallel to the border. Then the perpendicular vector is disregarded leaving only the parallel one to take into consideration.

Well you can redirect the approach direction after setting either an auto drop or a manual drop, but that only changes the approach, not the centerpoint of the drop. 

basically as a CV player you want full control over both, and generally i even direct the direction through an approach route by Shift clicking waypoints. So the centerpoint is the thing i'd want to be able to set accurately (outside the map border in this case), which is limited by the map border. 

I agree that it is mainly an issue of plane- to border- interaction, perhaps less ship-to border. 

It could easily be solved by simply giving aircraft 100m extra room to fly in (which should also be shown on minimap, the "blind flying" on the edge of the minimap is OP as hell if it goes unnoticed by an enemy CV)
Then we would simply be able to perform our manual drops from either the map side, or the out-of-map side. 
Of course the whole issue only goes for torpedo bombers, but it can still make a big difference in some situations (say 1 or 0 torpedo hits vs 4 to the side of a cruiser)

 

 

12 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

I do see why it seems frustrating, but I would write this off as a CV UI issue though, not as a border interaction issue. Should be fixed with all the other CV issues, but the border per se seems fine in all other regards.

Well in my opinion there are not that many other CV issues to solve- CV gameplay is quite okay. Sure, there are a couple of small bugs, but i prefer the current gameplay way over what ive seen being suggested in game development :O
Those ideas are quite terrible IMO

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2 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Well you can redirect the approach direction after setting either an auto drop or a manual drop, but that only changes the approach, not the centerpoint of the drop. 

Are you absolutely sure about that? Because I distinctly remember being able to actually drag the entire manual drop maneuver around, not just changing the angle.

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