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Redcap375

MM, genuinely concerned now chaps

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Chaps :cap_tea:

 

I'm starting to become more and more concerned regarding the MM at the moment. I know some of you will be rolling your eyes right now, but i have seen this become more of a problem recently.  I wanted your thoughts.

 

1) Landslides are occurring alot more than they have ever been.

 

2) More and more random MM matches are tilted one way or the other.

 

You are either in a team that gets smacked in the face within a few minuets or are the ones doing the smacking.  Which brings me onto point 2. 

 

The MM line up is starting to become comical.  On one team you have a mix bag of solo, divs, clans, winrates ect...And on the other you have 2 x 3 Typhoon/hurricane divs with  2 solo high winrates thrown into the mix.  Last night we (div m8 and myself) came up against 2 x 3 purple clan 60+ WR players.  Believe it or not, it was a landslide :cap_hmm:

 

I could have had the best game of my life (In the Alabama) it wouldn't have mattered a jot.  It's like being ganged up on by a bunch of champion boxers then turning around to see who your mates are for support....Realise who they are, then sigh and except your fate as you get punched to death. 

 

It's all great if your on "that team" but it's still not fair for the enemy.  

 

Clan Mate " Easy win wasn't it Red?"

 

I said "Yeah, I would expect it to be with those in our team (including us) poor gits"

 

IMHO WG need to sort this out or at least starting looking at it before it gets worse.  Bring the MM captain skills alot closer.  Not to make it perfect, but a good split between good Divs and solo players. There is enough players who play this game to make this sort of thing happen, surly?  

 

lot of our new players are noticing this and I keep on telling them "it never used to be like this" :Smile_hiding:. Is this here to stay now? I don't think it's healthy for the game. 

 

So...Tick sheet:

 

Do you think there is a problem?

Can they change the MM to fix this?

Will they?

 

Interested to hear your thoughts.  I really have noticed this more and more lads/lassies  :cap_hmm:

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I mean, they created World of Gimmicks, now, the team that has more gimmicks usually gets a landslide victory.

 

To the "will they" question: you are not new here, you know the answer full well...

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I've seen this too, but I've also had a couple of notable games the past few nights which have been as tight as anything.

 

It's more common in my experience to see one team loaded with purple clan types, than to see them distributed. I'm not making any judgements on it, I just try to play the best I can and hit battle again, but it's not fun to be stomped (or to be in the stomping team).

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Even though their noses get longer WG claims that "the MM does not differentiate between players of different skills".

You just have to accept that WG wants landslide games to happen as often as possible, even if in the long term it hurts the game.

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I posted about this recently - I would link the post but I haven't got a clue how to do it.  I noticed the walkovers becoming more and more regular after the latest update.  The consensus in the responses (the constructive ones anyway) was that the Halsey Campaign is causing more and more people to wobble around in USN Cruisers offering up broadsides and just generally not knowing how to play those ships.  Same with the Indianapolis campaign happening at the same time. 

 

Overall though I do agree that the nature of random battles has changed significantly very recently - whether due to the above I dunno but the matches are definitely less interesting and more annoying as a result.  

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Had an educational game just yesterday with a mate of mine in tier 5 ships. Furu and Revolutsiya... We had a regular Ranger with a potato player but a decent team and the enemy team had apparently an unicum Saipan with a potato team.  Oh well, I got to observe the game early on, as luck would have it the Saipan was in our end of the map, while Ranger provided us no cover I got blapped almost instantly (he obviously knew which ships have poor AA - I mean it is quite futile to even try downing any of Saipan's planes with Furu's AA) with my division mate following closely behind and so on. The Saipan methodically reduced our entire flank to wreck in quite a short order and somehow also found time to go after and torp the poor Ranger right where he had spawned as well - All within the first few minutes.:cap_wander_2::etc_swear:

 

We did manage to win the game eventually, as the rest of their team consisted of utter twits, but that was just by a hair, had the game lasted 2 more minutes longer he would have finished off the last 2 survivors from out team for sure (time ran out with his torps  just 10 meters from our Schanhorst's side and with our Belfast in 152 HP left). :Smile_amazed:

 

But yeah, that was actually one of the very few cliffhanger matches we had all weekend. Most were rather sadly lopsided one way or the other and felt kinda like a waste of time regardless on which side I found myself on. If on losing side, nothing much can be done to reverse the fortunes (especially in a CV game, since the better CV ALMOST always decides the match). And if on winning side the game is over before you even got a chance to do much. Played Mogami with small guns and a Hydro-AntiDD-combo most games, so that might have something to do with it also tho, since we had mostly CV games all weekend.:cap_hmm:

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

Even though their noses get longer WG claims that "the MM does not differentiate between players of different skills".

You just have to accept that WG wants landslide games to happen as often as possible, even if in the long term it hurts the game.

Why would WG want landslides to happen more often?  Wouldn't that just irritate the same number of people as it makes feel like a God?

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12 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

 

You just have to accept that WG wants landslide games to happen as often as possible

Why you think that?

Whats the profit for the company if games are landslides instead of close calls?

 

 

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1 minute ago, Up_The_Donald said:

Why would WG want landslides to happen more often?  Wouldn't that just irritate the same number of people as it makes feel like a God?

They have stated before that people own too many signals. Having shorter games means people will play more often and use more signals. They tried enticing people to use up signals by raffling Romas out.

Now that the economic signals are sold for doubloons and in the shop this might become a source of income for them.

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Just now, Aragathor said:

They have stated before that people own too many signals. Having shorter games means people will play more often and use more signals. They tried enticing people to use up signals by raffling Romas out.

Now that the economic signals are sold for doubloons and in the shop this might become a source of income for them.

Sneaky WG.  Never trust the Russians - trust me, I know. 

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1 minute ago, Aragathor said:

They have stated before that people own too many signals. Having shorter games means people will play more often and use more signals. They tried enticing people to use up signals by raffling Romas out.

Now that the economic signals are sold for doubloons and in the shop this might become a source of income for them.

A bit far fetched but reasonable maybe.

I mean they can have more profits from 500 players buying a good premium ship than 20.000 players buying some flags.

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36 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

 Last night we (div m8 and myself) came up against 2 x 3 purple clan 60+ WR players.  Believe it or not, it was a landslide :cap_hmm:

 

Have you roflstomped them?

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Vor 36 Minuten, Redcap375 sagte:

The MM line up is starting to become comical.  On one team you have a mix bag of solo, divs, clans, winrates ect...And on the other you have 2 x 3 Typhoon/hurricane divs with  2 solo high winrates thrown into the mix.  Last night we (div m8 and myself) came up against 2 x 3 purple clan 60+ WR players.  Believe it or not, it was a landslide :cap_hmm:

The number of hurricane clan players or rank 1 players does not necessarily make one team better than the other ;)

Just yesterday we had a match with 2 rank 1, 3 hurricane players vs 5 rank 1 hurricane players.

1c6a9301e4.png

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Weel, having worked (and still do) for a major corporation, which for purposes of personal security shall remain unnamed, for the last 10 years. I must admit that I have the same problem with this theory than I have with the proposition of sk. "Intelligent Design" and / or any and all other conspiracy theories. Namely that all of them require that there should first be some actual, verifiable and pre-existing INTELLIGENCE in order for that kinda thingy to be envisioned, planned and executed and all my experience has only managed to produce so far is the irrefutable and undeniable evidence of the absence thereof.:Smile_facepalm:

 

Sadly or perhaps luckily every single corporation on this planet and possibly the entire Universe is Managed by Drunken Lemurs, who will struggle to even get a change of socks on by themselves and who could not possibly neither conceive nor execute any such plan ever, so we are quite safe lads. Everything that happens is just result of the plain ole' usual human idiocy, of which there is an inexhaustible supply. :cap_like:

lemur.jpg.c1204075a5a4fd65c41a21ca7a7f9595.jpg

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I think that there is fundamental problem with allowing divisions in random games. I believe the statistics show that a player's win rate is higher when playing in a division than when playing solo. Random should be truly random - and allowing divisions breaks this rule. If players simultaneously press battle as solo players there is a significant chance they will end up in a different battle or on different sides. This is not the case if you are in a division, you are guaranteed to be in the same battle and on the same side. I suspect that the advantage of being in a division increases with the skill of the players in the division. So a division of 60% plus players playing as division seriously breaks the concept of a random game.

 

MM should not balance games based on win rate or any other measure of how good a player is. If it did, good players win rates would drop and less successful players win rates would rise. The real problem comes from by being in a division 3 players gain an advantage over the truly random (solo) players, and distort the player statistics. Divisions were introduced to give players a chance to play together, and single clan divisions of good players are exploiting the advantage they give. The result is more one sided games.

 

Now that we have clan battles, I suggest that divisions in random be abolished so that we return to true random play. For those that wish to play in teams, make clan battles a full time battle mode.

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I hadn't noticed anything of this sort :Smile_amazed:

 

So does anyone have any actual data regarding this? I've seen worse rants but frankly I'm not seeing a substantial increase in the number of quick landslide victories (and I hope it stays the way it is now).

 

And besides, making matches last longer just to get rid of extra stocks of signal flags is a bit weird as I'd find it more likely for WG to decrease the number of signals gotten by missions.

And if I noticed any of this sort (and mind you, this is purely subjective and I might not be seeing things straight here) it is that the number of single-use camos gotten in missions was decreased (I still have tons of the french camos, it seems the amount of those USA camos gotten in missions is way less now? Same with the pi camos).

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7 minutes ago, huymog said:

I think that there is fundamental problem with allowing divisions in random games. I believe the statistics show that a player's win rate is higher when playing in a division than when playing solo. Random should be truly random - and allowing divisions breaks this rule. If players simultaneously press battle as solo players there is a significant chance they will end up in a different battle or on different sides. This is not the case if you are in a division, you are guaranteed to be in the same battle and on the same side. I suspect that the advantage of being in a division increases with the skill of the players in the division. So a division of 60% plus players playing as division seriously breaks the concept of a random game.

 

MM should not balance games based on win rate or any other measure of how good a player is. If it did, good players win rates would drop and less successful players win rates would rise. The real problem comes from by being in a division 3 players gain an advantage over the truly random (solo) players, and distort the player statistics. Divisions were introduced to give players a chance to play together, and single clan divisions of good players are exploiting the advantage they give. The result is more one sided games.

 

Now that we have clan battles, I suggest that divisions in random be abolished so that we return to true random play. For those that wish to play in teams, make clan battles a full time battle mode.

 

Are you really suggesting that disabling divisions would make potatoes better players?  Just because their wr would be closer to the relative average? 

 

Unicorns remain unicorns in division, just as potatoes remain potatoes in division as well. PR is another indicator of player skill. Lesser / higher winrate is not exclusively dependant on wr so nothing would change.

 

Even with unicorn divisions we cannot deny some landslides simply because of the lack of general sanity of the rest of the team. 

 

Potatos have the very same right to team up as well. Do not you see enough 3xBB or simple tier faildivisions already?

 

NO FOOKIN NEED TO PUNISH GOOD PLAYERS EVEN MORE!  We already have to carry tons of potatoes on our backs...

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I don't think Divisions are going anywhere, as they are an integral part of WG's model for player retention (the theory being players playing regularly with friends will have more attachment to the game). The same Principe applies to clans. Division play should improve the game play of each and every battle, as this game heavily relies on cooperation to achieve a victory. Far more so than WOT in my opinion. I haven't ever divisioned, which is part of the reason why i have now joined a clan.

 

As for skill based MM, there are good arguments for and against it, but if we look at WG's more mature product WOT wher skill based MM has been debated to death, we see that WG's model is in complete opposition to the idea, the don't want it period.

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3 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I hadn't noticed anything of this sort :Smile_amazed:

 

So does anyone have any actual data regarding this? I've seen worse rants but frankly I'm not seeing a substantial increase in the number of quick landslide victories (and I hope it stays the way it is now).

 

 So it's a rant now....Some people, your better than that rain :Smile_facepalm:

 

If you not seen an increase then fine, but bare in mind that many do. 

 

9 minutes ago, huymog said:

I think that there is fundamental problem with allowing divisions in random games. I believe the statistics show that a player's win rate is higher when playing in a division than when playing solo. Random should be truly random - and allowing divisions breaks this rule. If players simultaneously press battle as solo players there is a significant chance they will end up in a different battle or on different sides. This is not the case if you are in a division, you are guaranteed to be in the same battle and on the same side. I suspect that the advantage of being in a division increases with the skill of the players in the division. So a division of 60% plus players playing as division seriously breaks the concept of a random game.

 

MM should not balance games based on win rate or any other measure of how good a player is. If it did, good players win rates would drop and less successful players win rates would rise. The real problem comes from by being in a division 3 players gain an advantage over the truly random (solo) players, and distort the player statistics. Divisions were introduced to give players a chance to play together, and single clan divisions of good players are exploiting the advantage they give. The result is more one sided games.

 

Now that we have clan battles, I suggest that divisions in random be abolished so that we return to true random play. For those that wish to play in teams, make clan battles a full time battle mode.

 

Defiantly not IMHO.  Div's are here to stay and should always be allowed in Random games.  It's one of the last bastion of teamwork in this game and a reason alot of people still play random.  That and Clans which I am looking forward to by-the-way.

 

It's the creeping of the unequal MM that concerns me, not the divs/clans.   Don't have 2 x 3 Divs/Clan with good stats on one team against a mix bag of all sorts on the other. It's not just div's and clans, but one team that has substantial  better "stats" then the other.  

 

 

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I am certainly not suggesting that disabling divisions would make potatoes better players. In truly random gameplay, potatoes would remain potatoes and unicums remain unicums. As a below average player I fully accept that and am happy to realise that I am a below average player.

 

What I am saying is that really good players are taking advantage of the division mechanism to skew the game in their favour thus amplifying the difference in stats, and more importantly increasing the number of one sided games and these are no fun for me whether I am on the winning or losing side.

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2 minutes ago, zengaze said:

As for skill based MM, there are good arguments for and against it, but if we look at WG's more mature product WOT wher skill based MM has been debated to death, we see that WG's model is in complete opposition to the idea, the don't want it period.

 

:Smile_great: reasons then....

 

Loved WOT many moons ago....Hate what it has become now.

 

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5 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

People are concerned since day one. What is new?

 

Gotta love the brown nosing, but is it not tiresome?

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If you go to skill based MM, how do you measure skill as the aim of skill based MM is to maintain a 50% win rate for all players. Come to think of it that would be amazing because if the skill based MM were perfect we would have truly random battles!

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I happen to be in one of those purple clans (don't know how they let me in) and yesterday we had 2 matches with 3-man div plus another purple div in our side. Both times we lost in 5 minutes with the enemy pushing trough both flanks with no difficulty at all, simple because everyone else suicided so eagerly. 

 

So yeah, landslides happen, but having some purple clan div in your side doesn't mean you'll be the one on top of the landslide ;)

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