Capra76 Players 5,001 posts 7,787 battles Report post #1 Posted June 25, 2018 From the development blog: https://www.facebook.com/wowsdevblog/ T2 Medea Spoiler Hit points – 8700. Plating - 6 mm. Main battery - 3x1 102 mm. Firing range – 8.8 km. Maximum HE shell damage – 1500. Chance to cause fire – 6%. Maximum AP shell damage - 1800. Reload time - 5s. 180 degree turn time - 18 s. Maximum dispersion - 81 m. HE initial velocity - 811 m/s. AP initial velocity - 811 m/s. Sigma value – 2.0. Torpedo tubes - 2x2 533 mm. Maximum damage - 10000. Range - 6.0 km. Speed - 53 kt. Reload time - 53 s. Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.1 km. Instead of choosing between wide and narrow spreads, captains can choose to fire off individual torpedoes or expend the entire launcher at once. Maximum speed - 32 kt. Turning circle radius - 460 m. Rudder shift time – 2,3 s. Surface detectability – 5,4 km. Air detectability – 2,4 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke – 1,7 km. Available consumables: Slot 1 - Damage Control Party Slot 2 - Smoke Generator Emission time 15 s; Duration time 85 s; Cooldown 240 s and 160 s for Smoke Generator II; Charges 2 and 3 for Smoke Generator II; Radius - 600 m. Slot 3 - Engine Boost T3 Valkyrie Spoiler Hit points – 9500. Plating - 6 mm. Main battery - 4x1 102 mm. Firing range – 10.7 km. Maximum HE shell damage – 1500. Chance to cause fire – 6%. Maximum AP shell damage - 1800. Reload time - 5s. 180 degree turn time - 18 s. Maximum dispersion - 96 m. HE initial velocity - 811 m/s. AP initial velocity - 811 m/s. Sigma value – 2.0. Torpedo tubes - 2x2 533 mm. Maximum damage - 10000. Range - 6.0 km. Speed - 53 kt. Reload time - 41 s. Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.1 km. Instead of choosing between wide and narrow spreads, captains can choose to fire off individual torpedoes or expend the entire launcher at once. Maximum speed - 34 kt. Turning circle radius - 500 m. Rudder shift time – 2,5 s. Surface detectability – 6,3 km. Air detectability – 2,9 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke – 2,0 km. Available consumables: Slot 1 - Damage Control Party Slot 2 - Smoke Generator Emission time 15 s; Duration time 89 s; Cooldown 240 s and 160 s for Smoke Generator II; Charges 2 and 3 for Smoke Generator II; Radius - 600 m. Slot 3 - Engine Boost T4 Wakeful Spoiler Hit points – 10000. Plating - 10 mm. Main battery - 4x1 120 mm. Firing range – 10.8 km. Maximum HE shell damage – 1700. Chance to cause fire – 9%. Maximum AP shell damage - 2200. Reload time - 8 s. 180 degree turn time - 18 s. Maximum dispersion - 96 m. HE initial velocity - 774 m/s. AP initial velocity - 774 m/s. Sigma value – 2.0. Torpedo tubes - 2x3 533 mm. Maximum damage - 10000. Range - 6.0 km. Speed - 53 kt. Reload time - 62 s. Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.1 km. Instead of choosing between wide and narrow spreads, captains can choose to fire off individual torpedoes or expend the entire launcher at once. Maximum speed - 35 kt. Turning circle radius - 500 m. Rudder shift time – 2,5 s. Surface detectability – 6,3 km. Air detectability – 2,9 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke – 2,0 km. Available consumables: Slot 1 - Damage Control Party Slot 2 - Smoke Generator Emission time 15 s; Duration time 92 s; Cooldown 240 s and 160 s for Smoke Generator II; Charges 2 and 3 for Smoke Generator II; Radius - 600 m. Slot 3 - Engine Boost T5 Acasta Spoiler Hit points – 11200. Plating - 10 mm. Main battery - 4x1 120 mm. Firing range – 11.1 km. Maximum HE shell damage – 1700. Chance to cause fire – 8%. Maximum AP shell damage - 2100. Reload time - 5 s. 180 degree turn time - 18 s. Maximum dispersion - 98 m. HE initial velocity - 808 m/s. AP initial velocity - 808 m/s. Sigma value – 2.0. Torpedo tubes - 2x4 533 mm. Maximum damage - 11967. Range - 6.0 km. Speed - 59 kt. Reload time - 95 s. Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.2 km. Instead of choosing between wide and narrow spreads, captains can choose to fire off individual torpedoes or expend the entire launcher at once. Maximum speed - 35 kt. Turning circle radius - 540 m. Rudder shift time – 2,9 s. Surface detectability – 6,8 km. Air detectability – 3.2 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke – 2,4 km. Available consumables: Slot 1 - Damage Control Party Slot 2 - Smoke Generator Emission time 15 s; Duration time 96 s; Cooldown 240 s and 160 s for Smoke Generator II; Charges 2 and 3 for Smoke Generator II; Radius - 600 m. Slot 3 - Engine Boost T6 Icarus Spoiler Hit points – 11200. Plating - 10 mm. Main battery - 4x1 120 mm. Firing range – 11.6 km. Maximum HE shell damage – 1700. Chance to cause fire – 8%. Maximum AP shell damage - 2100. Reload time - 5 s. 180 degree turn time - 18 s. Maximum dispersion - 102 m. HE initial velocity - 808 m/s. AP initial velocity - 808 m/s. Sigma value – 2.0. Torpedo tubes - 2x5 533 mm. Maximum damage - 15733. Range - 6.0 km. Speed - 59 kt. Reload time - 133 s. Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.2 km. Instead of choosing between wide and narrow spreads, captains can choose to fire off individual torpedoes or expend the entire launcher at once. Maximum speed - 35.5 kt. Turning circle radius - 540 m. Rudder shift time – 3.0 s. Surface detectability – 6,8 km. Air detectability – 3.3 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke – 2,4 km. Available consumables: Slot 1 - Damage Control Party Slot 2 - Smoke Generator Emission time 15 s; Duration time 96 s; Cooldown 240 s and 160 s for Smoke Generator II; Charges 2 and 3 for Smoke Generator II; Radius - 600 m. Slot 3 - Engine Boost / Hydroacoustic Search Torpedo detection range 1,89 km Ship detection range 2,73 Duration 180 s Cooldown 180 s and 120 s for Hydroacoustic Search II Charges 2 and 3 for Hydroacoustic Search II T7 Jervis Spoiler Hit points – 14300. Plating - 16 mm. Main battery - 3x2 120 mm. Firing range – 12.1 km. Maximum HE shell damage – 1700. Chance to cause fire – 8%. Maximum AP shell damage - 2100. Reload time - 5 s. 180 degree turn time - 18 s. Maximum dispersion - 106 m. HE initial velocity - 808 m/s. AP initial velocity - 808 m/s. Sigma value – 2.0. Torpedo tubes - 2x5 533 mm. Maximum damage - 15733. Range - 6.0 km. Speed - 59 kt. Reload time - 120 s. Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.2 km. Instead of choosing between wide and narrow spreads, captains can choose to fire off individual torpedoes or expend the entire launcher at once. Maximum speed - 36 kt. Turning circle radius - 590 m. Rudder shift time – 3.5 s. Surface detectability – 7,2 km. Air detectability – 3.7 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke – 2,6 km. Available consumables: Slot 1 - Damage Control Party Slot 2 - Smoke Generator Emission time 15 s; Duration time 103 s; Cooldown 240 s and 160 s for Smoke Generator II; Charges 2 and 3 for Smoke Generator II; Radius - 600 m. Slot 3 - Engine Boost / Hydroacoustic Search Torpedo detection range 1,89 km Ship detection range 2,73 km Duration 180 s Cooldown 180 s and 120 s for Hydroacoustic Search II Charges 2 and 3 for Hydroacoustic Search II T8 Lightning Spoiler Hit points – 15900. Plating - 19 mm. Main battery - 3x2 120 mm. Firing range – 12.2 km. Maximum HE shell damage – 1700. Chance to cause fire – 9%. Maximum AP shell damage - 2200. Reload time - 6 s. 180 degree turn time - 18 s. Maximum dispersion - 107 m. HE initial velocity - 774 m/s. AP initial velocity - 774 m/s. Sigma value – 2.0. Torpedo tubes - 2x4 533 mm. Maximum damage - 15867. Range - 8.0 km. Speed - 61 kt. Reload time - 96 s. Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.3 km. Instead of choosing between wide and narrow spreads, captains can choose to fire off individual torpedoes or expend the entire launcher at once. Maximum speed - 36 kt. Turning circle radius - 590 m. Rudder shift time – 3.8 s. Surface detectability – 7,0 km. Air detectability – 3.8 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke – 2,5 km. Available consumables: Slot 1 - Damage Control Party Slot 2 - Smoke Generator Emission time 15 s; Duration time 106 s; Cooldown 240 s and 160 s for Smoke Generator II; Charges 2 and 3 for Smoke Generator II; Radius - 600 m. Slot 3 - Engine Boost / Hydroacoustic Search Torpedo detection range 2,13 km Ship detection range 3,12 km Duration 180 s Cooldown 180 s and 120 s for Hydroacoustic Search II Charges 2 and 3 for Hydroacoustic Search II T9 Jutland Spoiler ST, British destroyer Jutland, tier IX Hit points – 18400. Plating - 19 mm. Main battery - 3x2 114 mm. Firing range – 13.2 km. Maximum HE shell damage – 1700. Chance to cause fire – 8%. Maximum AP shell damage - 2100. Reload time - 3.5 s. 180 degree turn time - 9 s. Maximum dispersion - 114 m. HE initial velocity - 746 m/s. AP initial velocity - 746 m/s. Sigma value – 2.0. Hull (A) main battery - 2х2 and 1х1 Torpedo tubes - 2x5 533 mm. Maximum damage - 15533. Range - 10.0 km. Speed - 62 kt. Reload time - 120 s. Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.3 km. Instead of choosing between wide and narrow spreads, captains can choose to fire off individual torpedoes or expend the entire launcher at once. AA defense - 3х1 40 mm, range - 3.5 km, damage per second - 26. 2х2 40 mm, range - 3,5 km, damage per second - 38. 3х2 114 mm, range - 5.0 km, damage per second - 45. Maximum speed - 34 kt. Turning circle radius - 610 m. Rudder shift time – 4.2 s. Surface detectability – 7,0 km. Air detectability – 4.1 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke – 2,4 km. Available consumables: Slot 1 - Damage Control Party Slot 2 - Smoke Generator Emission time 15 s; Duration time 110 s; Cooldown 240 s and 160 s for Smoke Generator II; Charges 2 and 3 for Smoke Generator II; Radius - 600 m. Slot 3 - Engine Boost / Hydroacoustic Search Torpedo detection range 2,37 km Ship detection range 3,51 km Duration 180 s Cooldown 180 s and 120 s for Hydroacoustic Search II Charges 2 and 3 for Hydroacoustic Search II T10 Daring Spoiler Hit points – 20800. Plating - 19 mm. Main battery - 3x2 114 mm. Firing range – 13.8 km. Maximum HE shell damage – 1700. Chance to cause fire – 8%. Maximum AP shell damage - 2100. Reload time - 2.5 s. 180 degree turn time - 7.2 s. Maximum dispersion - 114 m. HE initial velocity - 746 m/s. AP initial velocity - 746 m/s. Sigma value – 2.0. Torpedo tubes - 2x5 533 mm. Maximum damage - 16767. Range - 10.0 km. Speed - 62 kt. Reload time - 120 s. Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.3 km. Instead of choosing between wide and narrow spreads, captains can choose to fire off individual torpedoes or expend the entire launcher at once. AA defense - 2х2 40 mm, range - 3,5 km, damage per second - 63. 3х2 114 mm, range - 5.0 km, damage per second - 53. Maximum speed - 35 kt. Turning circle radius - 630 m. Rudder shift time – 4.6 s. Surface detectability – 7,0 km. Air detectability – 4.3 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke – 2,5 km. Available consumables: Slot 1 - Damage Control Party Slot 2 - Smoke Generator Emission time 15 s; Duration time 113 s; Cooldown 240 s and 160 s for Smoke Generator II; Charges 2 and 3 for Smoke Generator II; Radius - 600 m. Slot 3 - Engine Boost / Hydroacoustic Search Torpedo detection range 2,61 km Ship detection range 3,9 km Duration 180 s Cooldown 180 s and 120 s for Hydroacoustic Search II Charges 2 and 3 for Hydroacoustic Search II Initial impressions are not good; a gimped version of the USN with a weak hydro consumable, slow, weak torpedoes turns them into a line of dedicated smoke campers in the middle of the radar meta. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[RAIN] GarrusBrutus Players 3,711 posts 12,527 battles Report post #2 Posted June 25, 2018 see the "something interesting info" thread. You're late mate. ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capra76 Players 5,001 posts 7,787 battles Report post #3 Posted June 25, 2018 Just now, GarrusBrutus said: see the "something interesting info" thread. You're late mate. ;) See my comments in that thread; I think this is worth a topic of its own. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[GOUF] RambaRal Beta Tester 337 posts 7,140 battles Report post #4 Posted June 25, 2018 Nice concealment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[THROW] wilkatis_LV [THROW] Players 5,061 posts 10,702 battles Report post #5 Posted June 25, 2018 "Normal" smoke radius - 450m RN DD smoke radius - 600m RN DD with SSE - 720m RN DD with Dukirks improved SSE - 780m That's one big smokescreen 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[OGHF] Cyclops_ Players 2,108 posts 36,207 battles Report post #6 Posted June 25, 2018 Look a bit weak to me, anyone else think the same?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BYOB] Aragathor Players 7,047 posts 32,314 battles Report post #7 Posted June 25, 2018 9 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said: "Normal" smoke radius - 450m RN DD smoke radius - 600m RN DD with SSE - 720m RN DD with Dukirks improved SSE - 780m That's one big smokescreen It's not the size of your smoke screen, it's how you can use it. And the answer for the RN DDs is not with those guns. 18 minutes ago, Cyclops_ said: Look a bit weak to me, anyone else think the same?? A smidge, yeah. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[NIKE] Xevious_Red Beta Tester 3,412 posts 7,888 battles Report post #8 Posted June 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, Cyclops_ said: Look a bit weak to me, anyone else think the same?? Yeah I was thinking that. The game play style is what? Make a big smoke screen in the cap, then occupy it with your short range but long lasting hydro? With current radar meta that doesn't sound great, and won't work against German DD who have actual hydro. Similarly the torps are short range, the guns seem floaty, and the hydro requires you to swap out the speed boost. The tier 9 and X with 114mm guns pretty much need IFHE too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[XODUS] JaiFoh Players 799 posts 4,868 battles Report post #9 Posted June 25, 2018 I agree on needing a fresh topic. There is potential in these destroyers, especially as Wargaming appears to be taking inspiration from the Battles of Narvik in that these Destroyers are meant to be fighting in Caps taking the battle to enemy destroyers and screening the fleet. Their guns are are best used as close range so this can suit this design. The problems then appear is due to the speed of the shells, the poor torpedoes (T5-T7/8), lesser gun calibre (nothing that can be done there), slow reload of torpedoes (133 seconds at T6?), below average hydro (T6 Cruiser Hydro at T10). The Potential of the Line is there but they need tweaking and it might be then that is all they needed. Suggestion 1, Upgrade Torpedo of extra 500 meters of Range each from T5 & up so top modules would be T5, 6.5km Torps T6, 7km Torps T7, 7.5Km Torps T8, 8km Torps With the stock being the top torpedoes of the preceding level, so Lightning Starts off with 7.5Km base Torpedoes. Suggestion 2, Match the Torpedo Detection of the Hydro to the Ship Detection. Historically we know that the Royal Navy Destroyers were the work horses of World War Two and almost every ship in the escort fleet spent time escorting a convoy across the Atlantic or the Arctic and that their primary job was to protect the fleet from Submarines, specifically the Torpedoes they carried. So why not buff the Torpedo Detection range of the Hydro to match that of ship detection, although i would reduce the duration of it from 180 seconds to 150 seconds. So the Ship and Torpedo Detection of the ships would be T6 & T7: 2.73km T8: 3.21Km T9: 3.51Km T10: 3.9Km With those two personally i believe that we have something that is a little different from everyone else and quite possibly a balanced line. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[EST] Profilus [EST] Players 1,859 posts 35,571 battles Report post #10 Posted June 25, 2018 Don't see any reason why bother with tierX Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capra76 Players 5,001 posts 7,787 battles Report post #11 Posted June 25, 2018 18 minutes ago, Cyclops_ said: Look a bit weak to me, anyone else think the same?? The whole concept behind the line is wrong, trying to force ships with not very good guns into being pure gunboats is just not going to work. What WG have is a line of dedicated smoke campers dropped into the middle of a radar meta and they're not even especially good at that. Total 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[SCRUB] T0byJug Quality Poster 5,358 posts 25,524 battles Report post #12 Posted June 25, 2018 9 minutes ago, Profilus said: Don't see any reason why bother with tierX Apart from 2400 extra HP 30% faster ROF on main guns and almost 20% turret rotation. torps the same over the tier 9 Full opinion on the DDs to follow 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[HOO] BeauNidl3 Players 2,192 posts Report post #13 Posted June 25, 2018 36 minutes ago, Cyclops_ said: Look a bit weak to me, anyone else think the same?? Weak short range torpedoes and poor to indifferent guns, completely unimpressed. I had high hopes for RN DD's, but if they end up like this they will be very meh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CG] Redcap375 Players 4,371 posts 15,295 battles Report post #14 Posted June 25, 2018 I'm not a DD player but I WILL be grinding this line. But.....AM I RIGHT IN THINKING THEIR IS NO TRIBAL? what? Can you experienced DD players explain how good these ships are or not and why? Stat crunching is one thing, but nothing beats experience and what to really look for. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[NAN0] HaachamaShipping Players 8,474 posts 10,052 battles Report post #15 Posted June 25, 2018 26 minutes ago, JaiFoh said: Suggestion 2, Match the Torpedo Detection of the Hydro to the Ship Detection. Historically we know that the Royal Navy Destroyers were the work horses of World War Two and almost every ship in the escort fleet spent time escorting a convoy across the Atlantic or the Arctic and that their primary job was to protect the fleet from Submarines, specifically the Torpedoes they carried. So why not buff the Torpedo Detection range of the Hydro to match that of ship detection, although i would reduce the duration of it from 180 seconds to 150 seconds. So the Ship and Torpedo Detection of the ships would be T6 & T7: 2.73km T8: 3.21Km T9: 3.51Km T10: 3.9Km With those two personally i believe that we have something that is a little different from everyone else and quite possibly a balanced line. Fpr self-preservation, this is not needed. For fleet screening, if you ever screened in randoms for deep water torpedoes, especially Asashio, then you'd know it's a fairly unrewarding, boring and often also ineffective job. Balancing a DD around its ability to detect torpedoes with a limited time up consumable is just going to end in a lot of frustration. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
creamgravy Players 2,780 posts 17,292 battles Report post #16 Posted June 25, 2018 48 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said: "Normal" smoke radius - 450m RN DD smoke radius - 600m RN DD with SSE - 720m RN DD with Dukirks improved SSE - 780m That's one big smokescreen It's generic RN cruiser smoke. How many of those bigger ships waste 2 points on SSE? (600m+ radius is useless now BBs can't use smoke) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robihr Players 3,168 posts 9,352 battles Report post #17 Posted June 25, 2018 19 minutes ago, Redcap375 said: I'm not a DD player but I WILL be grinding this line. But.....AM I RIGHT IN THINKING THEIR IS NO TRIBAL? what? Can you experienced DD players explain how good these ships are or not and why? well it looks weak... line is gunboat with somewhat usable torps. hydro is almost useless (except for detecting incoming torps). and it is slow. on plus side it has great concealment, good hp pool and rapid firing guns. shell velocity seems slow so guns arc may be orbital... at least from data i expect akizuki playstyle with worse US guns... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LastButterfly Beta Tester 5,519 posts 2,939 battles Report post #18 Posted June 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, Redcap375 said: AM I RIGHT IN THINKING THEIR IS NO TRIBAL? It's not stupid. Tribal doesn't exactly fit with other UK DDs. In a techtree she'd just be a stain in the middle which shouldn't be there. 20 minutes ago, BeauNidl3 said: I had high hopes for RN DD's What could you possibly have hoped for ? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[EST] Profilus [EST] Players 1,859 posts 35,571 battles Report post #19 Posted June 25, 2018 24 minutes ago, T0byJug said: Apart from 2400 extra HP 30% faster ROF on main guns and almost 20% turret rotation. torps the same over the tier 9 Full opinion on the DDs to follow yeah but 35kt makes it all pretty useless Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[XODUS] JaiFoh Players 799 posts 4,868 battles Report post #20 Posted June 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, Redcap375 said: I'm not a DD player but I WILL be grinding this line. But.....AM I RIGHT IN THINKING THEIR IS NO TRIBAL? what? Can you experienced DD players explain how good these ships are or not and why? Stat crunching is one thing, but nothing beats experience and what to really look for. there are Two Premium Tribals in the Works now HMCS Haida at T7 HMS Cossack at T8 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jester86 Beta Tester 163 posts 5,850 battles Report post #21 Posted June 25, 2018 Going to reserve judgement until they are released, plenty of time for tweaking still to come. Glad to be seeing the RN DD's coming though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[SM0KE] Verblonde Players 9,787 posts 20,656 battles Report post #22 Posted June 25, 2018 This is still WiP stuff, I hope? Very much looking forward to the RN DDs - it would be a great shame if they turned out to suck... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CG] Redcap375 Players 4,371 posts 15,295 battles Report post #23 Posted June 25, 2018 14 minutes ago, LastButterfly said: It's not stupid. Tribal doesn't exactly fit with other UK DDs. In a techtree she'd just be a stain in the middle which shouldn't be there. One word..Premium WG see the £££££ signs and know that people will pay good money to own this piece of RN history , Like the Hood. Put it this way, i actually would . See, it worked. Nothing about being a stain IMHO, it's about £££££. But anyway, i'm looking forward to another line. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capra76 Players 5,001 posts 7,787 battles Report post #24 Posted June 25, 2018 17 minutes ago, Verblonde said: This is still WiP stuff, I hope? Very much looking forward to the RN DDs - it would be a great shame if they turned out to suck... Problem is the direction of travel, WG obviously don't want them to be torpedo boats but the gun power doesn't really justify anything else, so unless WG change their mind about the torpedoes they're just going to end up being meh. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LastButterfly Beta Tester 5,519 posts 2,939 battles Report post #25 Posted June 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, Redcap375 said: One word..Premium WG see the £££££ signs and know that people will pay good money to own this piece of RN history , Like the Hood. Put it this way, i actually would . See, it worked. Nothing about being a stain IMHO, it's about £££££. But anyway, i'm looking forward to another line. That too. I mean it's TrashGaming, what did you expect ? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
