Tone down the AA buff

[Seinta]

This was a fight 5 minutes ago. Amagi againts Essex. Almost all of the time I was alone, that's a tier 8 BB and tier 10 Carrier. Talk about placebo.

 

[Lile]

 

Carriers should be a support, not be able to kill everything from massive distance without any downsides to it.

 

Besides this being totally [edited] - why did I guess Sargons games played as CV captain wrong by only 1? Well, simply, because I guessed Zero but he drove his one and only CV 1 time. Perfectly valid to talk about CV Balance

[indycar]

maybe ppl also learned about focus fire

 

[azakow]

commanding Benson (AA is off by default);

ambushing a BB on Islands of Icebergs;

suddenly recon plane above; enable AA;

1 sec late recon plane down; BB blind again;

this was impossible before;

IMO it should be ecatly like this

[Seinta]

commanding Benson (AA is off by default);

ambushing a BB on Islands of Icebergs;

suddenly recon plane above; enable AA;

1 sec late recon plane down; BB blind again;

this was impossible before;

IMO it should be ecatly like this

 

No one is talking about scouts. The problems is that BBs are now destroying the same amount of planes that Cruisers were destroying before the buff.

All a BB has to do now is stall the bombers long enough for the AA to destroyd them, not EVADE torpedoes, but DESTROY.

The only problem was at lower tiers where there was no AA and CVs can circle around ships without a care in the world.

 

[Fominator]

IMO it should be exactly like this

 

Shotted down in one second by a DD? Then they can just remove the scouts.

 

No one is talking about scouts. The problems is that BBs are now destroying the same amount of planes that Cruisers were destroying before the buff.

 

And these are the IJN BBs, just wait for the US ones.

[azakow]

No one is talking about scouts. The problems is that BBs are now destroying the same amount of planes that Cruisers were destroying before the buff.

All a BB has to do now is stall the bombers long enough for the AA to destroyd them, not EVADE torpedoes, but DESTROY.

The only problem was at lower tiers where there was no AA and CVs can circle around ships without a care in the world.

You were talking about the AA balance that has noticably been changed. You call it AA buff.

 

I am aware what you are talking about.

Thank you for pointing this out again.

 

I am talking, or better reporting, about the abilities a DD now has after the AA buff.

 

It seems, that you are not aware that most vessles have recieved the same amount of additional AA rating points.

In case of some DD it is more than double, i.e. 2.75 on Mahan.

It also seems that you are not aware that "balancing" takes a few iterations, in order to find such thing as a balance.

Sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes you are the bug.

For the latest iteration, it seems that planes are the bug at current.

 

Shotted down in one second by a DD? Then they can just remove the scouts.

The Recon plane was right above me and I took the chance to test it.

 

To powerful now?

Maybe, we will see.

On the other hand, I've managed to down 9 planes in a match on DD before the buff.

[silence5]

... I've shot down 35 planes in a match in my mogami last week ... What kind of cruel monster would buff us even more xD I thought it was spot on before this match ... except for DD ships. Those were pathetic. 

[kwk75l48]

well its buffed dbs now they race to target attack, all die no complaints about low damage from bombs, problem solved.

 

[Aerroon]

I took out my Lexington and did a torpedo bomber attack on two Amagis. It was just two Amagis that were close together. It was almost a full clean drop (in and out after angling just a bit - no planes lost during angling or anything like it and it only lasted for a few seconds).

 

None of the torpedo bombers survived. Both groups all died to just two Amagis.

 

I did a drop on a lone Amagi - I lost 3 torpedo bombers (that's half of a group).

[Fenrir2205]

Before any nerf hits the AA, they realy need to fix it. Half the time my AA guns dont even fire at planes, And when you have 2 battleships, a cruiser and a destroyer keeping you bussy it would be FANTASTIC to atleast hear the AA go off. The fuso has 48 AA guns. When they work they are AWESOME, the other 90% they stay silent til the enemy planes are turning around and torps are going live within 100m of my ship.   Either they need to add a siren for when an enemy plane gets within say 5km (the max AA range i have seen so far) or atleast make the guns fire.

[Seinta]

You were talking about the AA balance that has noticably been changed. You call it AA buff.

It seems, that you are not aware that most vessles have recieved the same amount of additional AA rating points.

Cruisers are meant to have strong AA, DDs I'd guess are still a non factor for a CV captain.

And I am repeating myself like an idiot, the problem is that BBs now have the same AA as Cruisers before the buff.

A BB can now move alone WITHOUT any Cruiser providing air cover.

[Deamon93]

Cruisers are meant to have strong AA, DDs I'd guess are still a non factor for a CV captain.

And I am repeating myself like an idiot, the problem is that BBs now have the same AA as Cruisers before the buff.

A BB can now move alone WITHOUT any Cruiser providing air cover.

 

BBs do have more AA than cruisers though. Just see the differences between Japanese battleships and cruisers. It will be even more evident when the US BBs will show up: in comparison Baltimore(the cruiser with the highest dps at the moment) would be a joke.

[azakow]

I took out my Lexington and did a torpedo bomber attack on two Amagis. It was just two Amagis that were close together. It was almost a full clean drop (in and out after angling just a bit - no planes lost during angling or anything like it and it only lasted for a few seconds).

 

None of the torpedo bombers survived. Both groups all died to just two Amagis.

 

I did a drop on a lone Amagi - I lost 3 torpedo bombers (that's half of a group).

Many CV commanders send multiple type of planes, TB, DB and fighter at once, in a group if you wish.

What is the biggest threat of that group?

Correct, the TB are.

 

In case I just leave the AA duty to my builtin AI, then the AI will not focus on the TB, but shoot randomly at targets.

Performing AA duty while commanding a CA, I will focus the planes in the following order:

1. TB
2. DB
3. figthers

It seems that the opponents have just done that to your TB.

---

Moreover I notice that planes are scared off from my position and do not even try to engage anymore.

A bit later a lone BB falls victim to these planes.

 

To me it seems, that "complaining" about lost planes during a attack run is a little off set.

Have a look:

1. Independence: 30 units (3/6)
2. Saipan: 40 units (3/6)
3. Ranger: 58 units (4/6)
4. Lexington: 72 units (4/6)
5. Essex: 75 units (4/6)

I am certain, that CV commanders will always find and select targets that result in a minimum number of own losses.

Their team mates perform the same calculations, but HP based.

---

Cruisers are meant to have strong AA, DDs I'd guess are still a non factor for a CV captain.

And I am repeating myself like an idiot, the problem is that BBs now have the same AA as Cruisers before the buff.

A BB can now move alone WITHOUT any Cruiser providing air cover.

Yes you are repeating yourself. No need to conclude you are an idiot.

 

Your responses have few substance, please be more specific!

I am asking, because "a BB" leaves lots of room, since there are many of them.

Being more specific would most likely help to understand the changes of the next AA balancing iteration.

Moreover, some responses show that "a BB" might not apply to a Fuso.

[Banzan]

Well, i just increased my shot down planes/battle using the Fuso to 4.21, while my cruisers Cleveland and Aoba are still at 2.44/1.65 kills/battle. Killing 25 planes in a Fuso without working on it (just turning into TB groups) ist far too much.

I already thought the AA ability was to high before (3.57 kills/battle with the Kongo) where it was easy possible to kill 8-15 planes if they went for you. Now killing 20 to 30 planes with a Fuso just because they go for you is even more overpowered.

 

Edit: I use my BBs with anti-AA setup (first skill, gun equippment +20% AA range), so no idea how good/bad it is without.

 

Edit2: I was sure i had 28 plane kills yesterdays, but the webstats shows only 25 kills as max on the Fuso (16 max with the Kongo).

[DBaron]

How many groups of TBs can a CV spawn during a battle? How many are needed to sink a BB? (aka how many groups)

 

Funnily enough I still have seen CV captains quite capable of sinking enemy BBs and CAs, yes some planes were lost but not even close the numbers mentionend here.

 

As I dont captain CVs, I only can speak from observation, but since the patch, it was way better than before, some ships were sunk by TBs, some only took damage, some evaded damage due to manouvering and AA, seems balanced if you ask me.

[Sharana]

In the lower tiers it's probably like in high tiers before the patch. But now the higher tiers are joke - Yamato killing all of Essex planes just by staying there and minimal evasive actions. Amagi killing all/most of Essex planes when evading and not to mention about the Lexington planes. So they just overbuffed it till the next patch.

[azakow]

In the lower tiers it's probably like in high tiers before the patch. But now the higher tiers are joke - Yamato killing all of Essex planes just by staying there and minimal evasive actions. Amagi killing all/most of Essex planes when evading and not to mention about the Lexington planes. So they just overbuffed it till the next patch.

This means 75 planes.

Let me reconstruct the match:

2x TB downed by Yamato, 12 planes;

2x TB downed by Yamato 24 planes;

2x TB downed by Yamato, 36 planes;

...

 

I get the impression that part of the problem is caused between the keyboard and the chair.

[Sharana]

All attacking her of course.

But as I said earlier after the patch I was out of planes in Essex 4 battles already. And Essex has insane amount of reserve planes and in my 100+ battles before the patch I was not even close to using the last squadron.

[azakow]

All attacking her of course.

But as I said earlier after the patch I was out of planes in Essex 4 battles already. And Essex has insane amount of reserve planes and in my 100+ battles before the patch I was not even close to using the last squadron.

In the case that 2x TBs (12) are downed, 12 are taken from the hangar to replace them, hence 75-12 and so on?

 

In fact loosing all planes, is an equvilant of running out of ammo, kind of isn' it?

[DBaron]

In the lower tiers it's probably like in high tiers before the patch. But now the higher tiers are joke - Yamato killing all of Essex planes just by staying there and minimal evasive actions. Amagi killing all/most of Essex planes when evading and not to mention about the Lexington planes. So they just overbuffed it till the next patch.

 

Well, the Saipan in the match we just had Sharana, had no probs putting torps into your Amagi ;)

[Sharana]

 

Well, the Saipan in the match we just had Sharana, had no probs putting torps into your Amagi ;)

 

Because he was not so good with the manual drops and I totally ignored him. Almost 0 evasive actions (wasn't even focusing his TBs) on my side as I was landing pretty good salvos on the enemy ships. Because of that he was scoring torpedo hits of course, but by doing nothing I ended up with a lot of planes destroyed.

The point is that just comming, dropping from 1-1,5km (instead of 700m where the minimum is) and turning away was not dangerous before, now you lose some planes, fine. But If the target is turning all the time making your life harder you stay at least 20 seconds in his AA area. Before the patch Essex would lose 2-3 planes against Amagi in such situation and now that's 5-7 depending on the RNG. So if before the amagi was alone without cruiser she would take up to 9 torps (6-7 usually) and that was bad for her. Now lonely Amagi just have to turn early enough, so you can't just drop and get out, but you have to stay 20-30 sec near the ship going for the right attack angle and only 5-7 will survive to drop torpedoes  scoring 4-5 hits on avarage.

 

The entire point is that lonely BB now have the same defensive AA power as BB + his escorting cruiser had before the patch. That's making both rambo BBs (away from the team) much better and CAs much more useless as now they only have the barrage skill for some seconds, killing the planes is reserved for the BBs. If you find that fine OK, but I don't. The game is not released so overbuffing and overnerfing is just common. I'm 100% sure that they will change that situation at least for tiers 6+ at some point.

 

I get the impression that part of the problem is caused between the keyboard and the chair.

Now that will sound really cocky and I'm sorry as it's not my intention. From all the 12 CV captains (mainly alphas) currently playing Essex I'm the second with battles on her (115) and keep the highest avarage damage per battle. So it's not the case that I don't know how to play CV, so I complain about it

Also please look at your stats of New Orleans (cruiser with good AA) and look how many planes per battle you have destroyed on avarage. I somehow doubt it's a good balance when now my Amagi even without the AA skills and modules have more planes destroyed on avarage by simpy evading the bombers while shooting at other ships.

 

[Droowzor]

 

So, yesterday I've had my first real experience with the buffed AA on my new Essex, and I have to say the buff is simply too much. On several occasions I lost literally all torpedo bombers, which used to be an rare occurrence. Up until this point I was always able to do a full attack run onto any unescorted BB of my own tier or lower. With a full attack run I mean getting at least all torps in the water before taking losses, but still losing some planes on the way back.

 

In the current state of the game it just seems incredibly difficult to do any of that, even to a BB which responds relatively late to a torpedo run. Forget about doing any of this to a target with backup. Dual BB's just shred any attack group to pieces, while a cruiser simply presses a button to put bombers in panic mode, making it literally impossible to kill anybody. At this point your options are to either force an attack, or back off and let the enemy form into an even more favourable position.

 

I do get why to an inexperienced or perhaps unaware BB it could seem overpowered to get taken from 100 to 0 by someone they can't shoot. Though this only happens on instances where the target is hit by a perfect run (read: getting hit by every single torpedo fired) or when you are unlucky enough to get citadeled. At top tiers one should have gathered enough skill and tactical knowledge to at least be able to avoid getting hit this hard. If you get hit by all 10 torpedo's, the CV shouldn't be punished a crazy AA buff. You should be punished by losing your ship, and having to learn how to avoid these runs in future.

 

A lot of these problems BB seem to have can be solved by simple teamwork, and keeping an eye on the surroundings.

 

[DBaron]

So, yesterday I've had my first real experience with the buffed AA on my new Essex, and I have to say the buff is simply too much. On several occasions I lost literally all torpedo bombers, which used to be an rare occurrence. Up until this point I was always able to do a full attack run onto any unescorted BB of my own tier or lower. With a full attack run I mean getting at least all torps in the water before taking losses, but still losing some planes on the way back.

 

In the current state of the game it just seems incredibly difficult to do any of that, even to a BB which responds relatively late to a torpedo run. Forget about doing any of this to a target with backup. Dual BB's just shred any attack group to pieces, while a cruiser simply presses a button to put bombers in panic mode, making it literally impossible to kill anybody. At this point your options are to either force an attack, or back off and let the enemy form into an even more favourable position.

 

I do get why to an inexperienced or perhaps unaware BB it could seem overpowered to get taken from 100 to 0 by someone they can't shoot. Though this only happens on instances where the target is hit by a perfect run (read: getting hit by every single torpedo fired) or when you are unlucky enough to get citadeled. At top tiers one should have gathered enough skill and tactical knowledge to at least be able to avoid getting hit this hard. If you get hit by all 10 torpedo's, the CV shouldn't be punished a crazy AA buff. You should be punished by losing your ship, and having to learn how to avoid these runs in future.

 

A lot of these problems BB seem to have can be solved by simple teamwork, and keeping an eye on the surroundings.

 

Fix the way some CV captains drop their torps into islands without rendering the torps useless on impact while you are at it.

 

Did you loose all your planes without scoring any hits at all the entire game?

[Bortasqu]

Fuso is op.