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mrk421

Could someone explain this to me (pictures)

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So right now there were between 6-10 times as many Cruisers in the battle queue as BBs and ever since 0.7.5. came out, Cruisers have outnumbered BBs in the battle queue at least 2-3 to 1 whenever I've been playing.

So how is it, that in more-less every battle teams tend to have exactly as many BBs as they have CA/CLs, or typically no more than one less BB. Why aren't there lineups with 2/8 BB/CL per side or similar. Is there a lower cap on the number of capital ships that I haven't heard of? Typical examples from today:

 

EX02.png

EX05.png

EX06.png

EX01.png

EX03.png

EX04.png

EX07.png

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As long as the MM finds enough BBs, it will give you about as many of them as you get cruisers. With the current queues, you spend rather limited time as a BB in queue, but enough people queue to not have a shortage. Also, games with 3 BBs or even 2 can happen more frequently now.

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Those numbers are Cruisers at the same tier as you whereas the BB's have had additional numbers dragged in from other tiers to make up the numbers, usually T8 in your pics which maybe BB heavy still?

 

Before the German BB release back in Sept '16 the EU server was a Cruiser heavy meta one with only 2-3 BB's for the majority (but not all) battles and 6+ cruisers but understandably BB drivers complained about the constant HE rain (it was bad). After the German BB release and the shift to a BB heavy meta the MM was floodied with BB's so to cope (and reduce BB waiting times) the MM started to fill up with 4-5 BB's per match (and sometimes more) whilst the cruiser numbers dropped rapidly to 2-4 and, despite everything WG has done since, that 4-5+ BB meta hasn't changed and I believe has had a more negative effect on the game than WG anticipated, but thats just my personal opinion.

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just normal mm, what do u want to know....if its why ur mm doesnt correlate to the queue, thats because u dont have to spend time in queue if u find instant mm that fits ur ship, and with ten thousand or more players at once u can imagine how often the battle button is clicked in one sec and finds instant mm.... 

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There is a softcap on how many BB/CA/DD are allowed per team which is 5 (1 for CV in hightiers) which MM tries to maintain and usualy can in peak hours.

That is why with queues like this you wait a lot longer for a match if you queue in a CA rather than a BB or DD.

However if some of the people in the CAs wait too long (i think it is longer than 3 minutes) because there are not enough BB/DD filling the matches those cruiserheavy games like 2 BBs 8 Cruisers 2DDs can and will happen.

This is most noticable if a Tier X CV waits in the queue for 5+ minutes until another Tier X CV press battle. The MM will (because that CV had to wait so long) instantly grab the 2. CV and anything else he can get to assemble two teams instantly. Which for example in the first picture would mean 1CV, 1 DD, 3 BBs rest CA (per team)

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15 minutes ago, IanH755 said:

Before the German BB release back in Sept '16 the EU server was a Cruiser heavy meta one with only 2-3 BB's for the majority (but not all) battles and 6+ cruisers

 

Unfortunately the game you're describing has simply never existed. Sure, BBs are more common now than they were early in the game's life but there's never been a time, unless it was in alpha, where 2-3 BBs would be standard. Even back in the earliest days you'd have 4 BBs per side as standard, although cruisers were certainly more numerous than they are now usually matching and sometimes exceeding the numbers of BBs in a game.

 

As for the OP, I've never understood those queue numbers either. I just started ignoring them assuming them to be unreliable a long time ago!

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44 minutes ago, Miessa3 said:

There is a softcap on how many BB/CA/DD are allowed per team which is 5 (1 for CV in hightiers) which MM tries to maintain and usualy can in peak hours.

That is why with queues like this you wait a lot longer for a match if you queue in a CA rather than a BB or DD.

However if some of the people in the CAs wait too long (i think it is longer than 3 minutes) because there are not enough BB/DD filling the matches those cruiserheavy games like 2 BBs 8 Cruisers 2DDs can and will happen.

This is most noticable if a Tier X CV waits in the queue for 5+ minutes until another Tier X CV press battle. The MM will (because that CV had to wait so long) instantly grab the 2. CV and anything else he can get to assemble two teams instantly. Which for example in the first picture would mean 1CV, 1 DD, 3 BBs rest CA (per team)

Thx for the answer, I wasn't aware of this softcap. ...and to everyone else who replied quickly as well, you helped clarify this question for me :Smile_honoring:

 

And although I'm not sure I agree that there's a need to cap CAs, at least now I know that such a thing is in place.

 

As a final note, I did not make this thread to complain about the MM in any way, was just trying to find out, why I had to wait so long (40s is quite long you know :Smile_trollface: ) to get a match in my CA - and now I know.

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55 minutes ago, rvfharrier said:

Unfortunately the game you're describing has simply never existed. Sure, BBs are more common now than they were early in the game's life but there's never been a time, unless it was in alpha, where 2-3 BBs would be standard. Even back in the earliest days you'd have 4 BBs per side as standard, although cruisers were certainly more numerous than they are now usually matching and sometimes exceeding the numbers of BBs in a game.

 

Thats just an opinion really and everyone's going to have different experiences. Thats why I specifically put "thats just my opinion" at the end rather than saying it's a fact. You have obviously had a different game experience to mine, thats all.

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There's another element you need to take into account: the ships shown in the queue are only those present at the moment from your same tier including yours, so the MM will fill a battle with ships from other tiers whose queue composition you're not aware of. There's also the possibility that MM waits for certain battles to end and free up ships (remember, some people go directly from one match to another) in order to keep its options for applying the softcap without pulling lower tier ships. I've had a battle recently that resembles the one shown in your last picture, save from no CVs and the only non-T10 ships being one RU T9 DD per team.

 

Anyway, if your'e in the "overpopulated" ship class in the queue you'll obviously have to wait a bit longer for a battle.

 

Salute.

 

P.S.: One thing I suspect regarding CVs, the silver ones at least, in queue is that MM has now a heavy tendency to pair them by nation if the relaxed MM rules (+3 minutes and +5 minutes) still don't apply. Which means that at mid tiers (where the population isn't as scarce) it's quite prone to USN vs USN and IJN vs IJN CV matches.

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its simple, there are two factors combining.

 

First, the current US cruiser focus.

 

Second, the two weekend Indianapolis marathon missions are as follows.

 

Shoot down 30 planes

 

Get 150 main bat hits and win.

 

Both are missions which will push up the cruiser numbers, it should return to as it was last week in a day or so.

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also those numbers were a lot worse this morning, queue balance was something like 2 cv 6 bb 83 ca 5 dd earlier.

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3 hours ago, mrk421 said:

So right now there were between 6-10 times as many Cruisers in the battle queue as BBs and ever since 0.7.5. came out, Cruisers have outnumbered BBs in the battle queue at least 2-3 to 1 whenever I've been playing.

So how is it, that in more-less every battle teams tend to have exactly as many BBs as they have CA/CLs, or typically no more than one less BB. Why aren't there lineups with 2/8 BB/CL per side or similar. Is there a lower cap on the number of capital ships that I haven't heard of?

Afaik those numbers are only from the tier you play, while MM is +/-2

Tier 10 CAs tend to be played far more than, for example, t8 ones, while BBs are generally overplayed at any tier where they exist

 

The rest of it is part of this:

2 hours ago, Miessa3 said:

There is a softcap on how many BB/CA/DD are allowed per team

Except that CAs are not capped. Game of 12 CAs is fine, they are the one class that can always fill any empty spot

 

BBs & DDs are limited to up to 5 per team, CVs are limited to 2 (tiers 4...7) or 1 (tier 8...10) per team.

 

This rule breaks down only if someone goes past 5min queue time, which is when you get those "1 CV 11 BBs per side" games, as an example.

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2 hours ago, Estaca_de_Bares said:

There's another element you need to take into account: the ships shown in the queue are only those present at the moment from your same tier including yours, so the MM will fill a battle with ships from other tiers whose queue composition you're not aware of. There's also the possibility that MM waits for certain battles to end and free up ships (remember, some people go directly from one match to another) in order to keep its options for applying the softcap without pulling lower tier ships. I've had a battle recently that resembles the one shown in your last picture, save from no CVs and the only non-T10 ships being one RU T9 DD per team.

 

No as far as i know the numbers you see are actualy the people in queue that could potentionaly end up in the same match as you including lower and higher tiers. This also explains why the MM sometimes can't start a battle even though enough ships are in queue and balanced with equal numbers (2,4,6 etc) because the Tiers of the same class don't match up. (one Tier IX and one Tier X CV for example in a queue with only 24 players)

Quote

P.S.: One thing I suspect regarding CVs, the silver ones at least, in queue is that MM has now a heavy tendency to pair them by nation if the relaxed MM rules (+3 minutes and +5 minutes) still don't apply. Which means that at mid tiers (where the population isn't as scarce) it's quite prone to USN vs USN and IJN vs IJN CV matches.

Which is exactly what WG explained when they introduced the new MM optimations. MM will consider nation (for every class) as long asit doesn't take too long waiting for some.

 

58 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Except that CAs are not capped. Game of 12 CAs is fine, they are the one class that can always fill any empty spot

Except they are. 12 CAs is only possible if noone else queues for 5 minutes, or can you show off a screenshot with such a matchup? (no CVs allowed as those can easily explained by the one waiting Tier X CV like i explained above)

Otherwise queues with 30-60+ CAs at the same time should be near impossible right?

If there are matches with more than 5 BBs/DDs/CAs then one of those must have waited more than 3-5 minutes.

 

Quote

BBs & DDs are limited to up to 5 per team, CVs are limited to 2 (tiers 4...7) or 1 (tier 8...10) per team.

 

This rule breaks down only if someone goes past 5min queue time, which is when you get those "1 CV 11 BBs per side" games, as an example.

Only the softcap rules break down after certain waiting times which is why sometimes there are very rare matches with extremes like 11 CAs/BBs/DDs per team.

The CV rules you mentioned however are hardcaps and can never be broken no mater the waiting time. (which is why MM is in such a hurry to assemle a game when a fitting cv do show up creating those messed up MM spreads)

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the clue lies in "players within your range" :Smile_hiding:

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5 minutes ago, nambr9 said:

the clue lies in "players within your range" :Smile_hiding:

jeah it's the "within your range" part

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4 hours ago, nambr9 said:

the clue lies in "players within your range" :Smile_hiding:

3 hours ago, Miessa3 said:

jeah it's the "within your range" part

Except that that "within your range" doesn't include other tiers. Example that happened to me: 3 and a half minutes waiting with Neptune, no CVs shown in queue; I rapidly switch to Lexington (which, according to the way you interpret it, was within range from Neptune, so any T8 CV should have been accounted for) and am thrown immediately to an incomplete MM (6 ships per team IIRC), signalling that somebody waited for too long in the queue, and I suspect that was the other CV due to the hour at which that happened.

 

Salute.

 

EDIT: I decided to run again the experiment of rapidly switching between tiers, using Friedrich der Große and Großer Kurfürst for that. The resulting screen captures below in the spoiler.

Spoiler

6chfy0th.jpg

perosohh.jpgU5REghrh.jpg

VAhnyZyh.jpg

So, there are more (not less) BBs and specially CAs waiting for a battle at T10 (spread of ships "within range" limited to T8-10) than at T9 (spread from T7 to T10). I did it a couple of times in order to have enough screen captures, but I was being thrown in when about to take the second one from each iteration. It would have served too, though: a match with CVs (albeit they were T7) in Bismarck when the queue for FdG showed none, for example.

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14 hours ago, Estaca_de_Bares said:

Except that that "within your range" doesn't include other tiers. Example that happened to me: 3 and a half minutes waiting with Neptune, no CVs shown in queue; I rapidly switch to Lexington (which, according to the way you interpret it, was within range from Neptune, so any T8 CV should have been accounted for) and am thrown immediately to an incomplete MM (6 ships per team IIRC), signalling that somebody waited for too long in the queue, and I suspect that was the other CV due to the hour at which that happened.

 

Salute.

 

EDIT: I decided to run again the experiment of rapidly switching between tiers, using Friedrich der Große and Großer Kurfürst for that. The resulting screen captures below in the spoiler.

  Hide contents

6chfy0th.jpg

perosohh.jpgU5REghrh.jpg

VAhnyZyh.jpg

So, there are more (not less) BBs and specially CAs waiting for a battle at T10 (spread of ships "within range" limited to T8-10) than at T9 (spread from T7 to T10). I did it a couple of times in order to have enough screen captures, but I was being thrown in when about to take the second one from each iteration. It would have served too, though: a match with CVs (albeit they were T7) in Bismarck when the queue for FdG showed none, for example.

okay let's assume that you are right....

Why would they do that?

If they do it like this those numbers have 0 value....

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20 hours ago, Estaca_de_Bares said:

There's another element you need to take into account: the ships shown in the queue are only those present at the moment from your same tier including yours, so the MM will fill a battle with ships from other tiers whose queue composition you're not aware of.

Not sure about this. I think the queue numbers shown are for the tier of battle you will be placed in, not your ship. I've noticed with tier 2 ships in the current player pool that I will get drastically different ship numbers in the queue depending on whether the MM wants to give me a tier 2 or tier 3 game, allowing me to tell which I will get. If it's only a few players and takes >10 seconds, usually a tier 2 battle; while tier 3 has some 3-4 times as many players.

 

A further observation is that I can exit and rejoin the queue and it doesn't change this, so it seems the roll for what tier battle MM will find for a particular ship belonging to a particular player is set after its last battle. I guess it also rerolls after every server reset each day.

Edited by StringWitch

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39 minutes ago, Miessa3 said:

okay let's assume that you are right....

Why would they do that?

If they do it like this those numbers have 0 value....

To be honest, I don't know. The way you described it (i.e., all the ships from all the tiers you could face) makes a lot more sense, and that might be the number shown as the denominator.

 

18 hours ago, Miessa3 said:

Which is exactly what WG explained when they introduced the new MM optimations. MM will consider nation (for every class) as long asit doesn't take too long waiting for some.

I missed that part from the release notes at the time, it's good to know that my hunch was right. To a practical effect, a move intended for equalising the average WR from every ship, more noticeable in CVs due to their particular MM rules and only being 2 lines at the moment.

 

30 minutes ago, StringWitch said:

Not sure about this. I think the queue numbers shown are for the tier of battle you will be placed in, not your ship. I've noticed with tier 2 ships in the current player pool that I will get drastically different ship numbers in the queue depending on whether the MM wants to give me a tier 2 or tier 3 game, allowing me to tell which I will get. If it's only a few players and takes >10 seconds, usually a tier 2 battle; while tier 3 has some 3-4 times as many players.

That would complicate matters even further but, well, we're talking about WG, it's sometimes difficult to say if they've heard of Occam's razor and KISS.

 

Salute.

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