CA AP on CL - overpens through citadel or not?

[loppantorkel]

Just a quick poll. Post your opinion or thoughts if you like. Please leave out the suggestion to aim under the waterline to avoid overpenning on short distances. Everyone knows it and that mechanic isn't very reliable to get citadel shots.

 

 

What is the main purpose of CAs? Anti BBs or anti CLs?

[PapVogele]

They should overpen if they are meant to overpen, if you cant figure out how to aim to get your shells to fuse, the game shouldn’t reward you for it... I mean... seriously do you want another crutch in this game?

[loppantorkel]

6 minutes ago, PapVogele said:

They should overpen if they are meant to overpen, if you cant figure out how to aim to get your shells to fuse, the game shouldn’t reward you for it... I mean... seriously do you want another crutch in this game?

The thing is, if you can't figure out the question at hand, maybe you shouldn't sit on such a high horse?

 

I'll explain it a bit easier for you

 

The current mechanic - do you like it as it is, or would you like this mechanic slightly changed - changing the fuse of the CA AP shell, or in some other way?

[PapVogele]

23 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

The thing is, if you can't figure out the question at hand, maybe you shouldn't sit on such a high horse?

 

I'll explain it a bit easier for you

 

The current mechanic - do you like it as it is, or would you like this mechanic slightly changed - changing the fuse of the CA AP shell, or in some other way?

Its working as intended, just because you dont understand it doesn’t mean it should be changed. I can easily get my 203s to arm on broadside CLs and get citadels, yet you want it to be easier still?

[loppantorkel]

3 minutes ago, PapVogele said:

Its working as intended, just because you dont understand it doesn’t mean it should be changed. I can easily get my 203s to arm on broadside CLs and get citadels, yet you want it to be easier still?

It's working in one way now. Even if it's working as intended doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. WG balances things all the time. If you like the mechanic as it is, say so, vote it should overpen and be less of a [edited]. I understand the mechanic, it's a poll, I haven't tried to influence you to vote in a particular way. People like you have a very hard time seeing topics about current mechanics objectively. WG looks a different mechanics all the time and this one was one I thought could be considered to be looked at.

 

Which of your CAs are citadelling CLs the most would you say?

[PapVogele]

I probably get more citadels with Des Moines, but I account that to its greater RoF.

 

The reason I’m being rather negative about it is that the primary difference between CAs and CLs is the caliber of guns, the armor is more or less the same, so while they take the same amount of lolpens from BBs, suddenly someone wants CLs to take more damage from CAs? Cruisers are already in a bad way, and now you suggest that one type of cruiser should be killed that much faster.. its just... 

[loppantorkel]

1 hour ago, PapVogele said:

The reason I’m being rather negative about it is that the primary difference between CAs and CLs is the caliber of guns, the armor is more or less the same, so while they take the same amount of lolpens from BBs, suddenly someone wants CLs to take more damage from CAs? Cruisers are already in a bad way, and now you suggest that one type of cruiser should be killed that much faster.. its just... 

No, I'm not suggesting one type of cruiser should be killed much faster. This is also a recurring thing on forums - A change to one mechanic to make the game better might mean a nerf to a certain ship or class - that's not the intention here. WG could very well buff the CLs in some other way if they become more vulnerable to CAs in close ranges. The intent isn't to nerf CLs, it's a question whether CLs are intended to show as much broadside as possible if they are surprised by a CA at close range. If they angle - they'll get citadelled, if they stay 90 degree broadside - they receive overpens, unless CA switches to HE which means they'll likely lose the DPM fight to a broadside CL. If CA shows broadside at close range to CL - they're citadelled more easily. Good mechanic or not? I don't want CLs nerfed, but ofc, if a CA surprises a CL in close range, I think CA should be at a advantage, it probably is in tier 10, but I don't think they are in lower tiers. I'm asking about this particular mechanic and if it can/should be looked at.

 

[wilkatis_LV]

Pretty situational. The AP will arm if it hits the citadel, that's pretty much guaranteed bcuz there's always (almost always?) enough armour.

 

Will it citadel or overpen? AP doesn't explode immediately, so while at some angles it might overpen, at others it might citadel. Same for different ranges and shell speeds.

CL might be too thin (like Lolanta), so broadside citadel hits result in nothing more than overpens. That same ship might get citadelled at longer range (when your shells are slower, a.k.a. they travel shorter distance after arming) or at angle (when there's a longer line through the ship for the shell to go)

At the same time it might be a fat one like the Neptune, which seems to be wide enough for even BBs to score good hits on a flat side, not just CAs

 

Literally case-by-case basis.

[PapVogele]

14 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

No, I'm not suggesting one type of cruiser should be killed much faster. This is also a recurring thing on forums - A change to one mechanic to make the game better might mean a nerf to a certain ship or class - that's not the intention here. WG could very well buff the CLs in some other way if they become more vulnerable to CAs in close ranges. The intent isn't to nerf CLs, it's a question whether CLs are intended to show as much broadside as possible if they are surprised by a CA at close range. If they angle - they'll get citadelled, if they stay 90 degree broadside - they receive overpens, unless CA switches to HE which means they'll likely lose the DPM fight to a broadside CL. If CA shows broadside at close range to CL - they're citadelled more easily. Good mechanic or not? I don't want CLs nerfed, but ofc, if a CA surprises a CL in close range, I think CA should be at a advantage, it probably is in tier 10, but I don't think they are in lower tiers. I'm asking about this particular mechanic and if it can/should be looked at.

 

And there it is, you seem to think that being a CA should automatically guarantee you a win vs a CL at close range. Being a heavy cruiser does not mean anything other than having bigger guns that are able to more consistently deal damage to heavily armored ships unlike CLs, CLs however excell at dealing with ships that has little armor... like DDs, CLs and CAs...

 

heavy cruiser, light cruiser... its a matter of caliber not how effective you are at close range.

[Centurion_1711]

3 minutes ago, PapVogele said:

And there it is, you seem to think that being a CA should automatically guarantee you a win vs a CL at close range. Being a heavy cruiser does not mean anything other than having bigger guns that are able to more consistently deal damage to heavily armored ships unlike CLs, CLs however excell at dealing with ships that has little armor... like DDs, CLs and CAs...

 

heavy cruiser, light cruiser... its a matter of caliber not how effective you are at close range.

Pretty much this: Pensacola and Mogami spring to mind. Both were originally meant to be light cruisers (Mogami was completed as such), but ened up heavy cruisers in the end. The only change (that I'm aware of)? The Pepsicola got upgunned to 8"/55's, and Mogami got the 8" guns she should have had all along. In fact, Mogami had quite strong armour for a CL of the time, better than CA's like Pensacola, the County class, one of the French designs that preceded Algerie etc.

 

Anyway, I'd say it's rather rare for any cruiser to manage to overpen a citadel. The only case I can think of might be the Emile Bertin: The armour is only something like half an inch, an air gap and another half inch. That ship can be quite trolly when broadside, but then gets ruined if you angle a bit (stronger effective armour and more space for the shell to arm). All I can think of is that the OP wasn't actually hitting the citadel. Maybe the shells were going wide or high and passing through the thinner plating. Some CL's are quite small, so the citadel isn't always that large either. Take the Cleveland: It's citadel is very low and hard to hit, so maybe that was what the OP was on about.

[loppantorkel]

21 minutes ago, PapVogele said:

And there it is, you seem to think that being a CA should automatically guarantee you a win vs a CL at close range. Being a heavy cruiser does not mean anything other than having bigger guns that are able to more consistently deal damage to heavily armored ships unlike CLs, CLs however excell at dealing with ships that has little armor... like DDs, CLs and CAs...

 

heavy cruiser, light cruiser... its a matter of caliber not how effective you are at close range.

"if a CA surprises a CL in close range, I think CA should be at a advantage" ≠ "CA should automatically guarantee you a win vs a CL at close range".

 

Look at OP. I even asked the question what CAs should counter effectively - BBs or CAs. I'm not assuming anything. I know about heavy cruiser - heavy calibre, again needless explanations no one asked for.

If you think CLs should counter CAs, by all means, vote for the overpen. I'm not trying to persuade you. I'm questioning how it works. If WG and people like the current mechanic, I'm fine with it. If it could be improved upon, that's good too.

 

@Centurion_1711 No, you don't need to try figure out a particular situation or ship. I've explained the mechanic and I've been on both sides of this. Broadsiding in Atlanta is a perfectly viable tactic to stay alive that I've used several times. I doubt you have more experience on this.

[Centurion_1711]

3 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

If you think CLs should counter CAs, by all means, vote for the overpen. I'm not trying to persuade you. I'm questioning how it works. If WG and people like the current mechanic, I'm fine with it. If it could be improved upon, that's good too.

 

@Centurion_1711 No, you don't need to try figure out a particular situation or ship. I've explained the mechanic and I've been on both sides of this. Broadsiding in Atlanta is a perfectly viable tactic to stay alive that I've used several times. I doubt you have more experience on this.

I suppose there isn't enough of a distinction between light and heavy cruisers in WoWs right now, for one to counter the other. The system seems to be DD's counter BB's, BB's counter cruisers, cruisers counter DD's. I know the lines have been blurred somewhat, but that was the basic idea. CA or CL, that just depends on playstyle, whether you want DPM (CL) or big alpha damage (CA).

However, there could be more of a difference between CA's and CL's (especially with split cruiser lines being added), in which case CA's should trump CL's in most cases (assuming equal skill of the captains, no RNG detonations etc.). The CL could out-manoeuvre the CA, the CA could try to out-range the CL and so forth, but I don't know if these two classes counter each other in WoWs.

I don't know if I'd want WG to fiddle with the shell mechanics too much. Two things could happen: Either shells are overpenning everything, making HE spam the only viable play style (we know how much fun that can be...), or AP arms on everything, making BB's even stronger and armour angling practically null and void. I know that overpens can feel frustrating (been there fighting ships like the French cruisers), but that and manoeuvrability are all that keeps CL's safe at times. Besides, you see enough on the forums about Neptunes and Minotaurs being one-shotted by lots of other ships, so I'm not sure how widespread the problem is.

[loppantorkel]

1 hour ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Pretty situational. The AP will arm if it hits the citadel, that's pretty much guaranteed bcuz there's always (almost always?) enough armour.

 

Will it citadel or overpen? AP doesn't explode immediately, so while at some angles it might overpen, at others it might citadel. Same for different ranges and shell speeds.

CL might be too thin (like Lolanta), so broadside citadel hits result in nothing more than overpens. That same ship might get citadelled at longer range (when your shells are slower, a.k.a. they travel shorter distance after arming) or at angle (when there's a longer line through the ship for the shell to go)

At the same time it might be a fat one like the Neptune, which seems to be wide enough for even BBs to score good hits on a flat side, not just CAs

 

Literally case-by-case basis.

It is a case-by-case scenario. Looking at it objectively - Is it a good gameplay mechanic if heavy cruisers is at a disadvantage if they are close to a thin cruiser that shows full broadside? Is it a good gameplay mechanic that your best option in a thin cruiser is to show complete broadside when a heavy ship is close enough?

 

I'm all for depth and keeping in game logic, but it's not good when things become too counterintuitive. If core gameplay mechanics such as 'showing broadside is bad' changes to 'showing full broadside is best in some situations'. Heavy AP is great to citadel unless enemy either potatoes too much or knows about the game in depth.

 

This isn't a gamebreaking thing to any degree, but if they're looking at Cruiser AP against DDs with the potential armour change, they might as well take a look at this.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

8 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

CA AP on CL - overpens through citadel or not?

Am I wrong or would this be overall a defensive buff to CLs?

[loppantorkel]

5 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Am I wrong or would this be overall a defensive buff to CLs?

As it is now, it seems you have better chance of citadelling a 'thin' CL that's slightly angled rather than full broadside when the range is short and you use a high calibre. The question is if CAs should be at disadvantage when you face a fully broadsiding 'thin' cruiser, or not. The solution now is to aim below the waterline and hope for arming, but that's very unreliable in my experience. So.. it would be a slight buff to CAs when facing thin cruisers at close range. It's not overly common, but I think it would make sense and a bit more intuitive for the average player.

[wilkatis_LV]

Thing is, unless you both are going in the same direction at the same speed (or at least very similar speed), or unless you are both rotating at the same speed around each other, that moment of "flat broadside" will be nothing more than a couple of seconds and *magic* - you're somewhat angled against each other again. And if it's one for those "unless" cases - you yourself are gifting the CL that advantage, your own fault

 

[loppantorkel]

27 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Thing is, unless you both are going in the same direction at the same speed (or at least very similar speed), or unless you are both rotating at the same speed around each other, that moment of "flat broadside" will be nothing more than a couple of seconds and *magic* - you're somewhat angled against each other again. And if it's one for those "unless" cases - you yourself are gifting the CL that advantage, your own fault

The obvious counterargument is all those cases you decide to go middle in Two Brothers and you stick out your nose at the other side only to find an Atlanta doing perfect half circles around you. What then?

[wilkatis_LV]

7 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

The obvious counterargument is all those cases you decide to go middle in Two Brothers and you stick out your nose at the other side only to find an Atlanta doing perfect half circles around you. What then?

1 - don't go middle

 

2 - move, you don't have to (and should) sit an wait

 

3 - aim to hit the further end of the citadel from you, that's slightly more angled (and this slight change can make a lot of difference)

 

4 - bend over and kiss your a** goodbye bcuz you are getting torpedoed in a narrow channel with no space to maneuver

[lafeel]

If it penetrates the citadel it should always count as a citadel.

 

The above should sum up my opinion of this and vote nicely.

[loppantorkel]

1 hour ago, wilkatis_LV said:

1 - don't go middle

 

2 - move, you don't have to (and should) sit an wait

 

3 - aim to hit the further end of the citadel from you, that's slightly more angled (and this slight change can make a lot of difference)

 

4 - bend over and kiss your a** goodbye bcuz you are getting torpedoed in a narrow channel with no space to maneuver

Yea. I kind of made up the situation to show that it's not only that situation of *magic* you argued. The issue is still that you can't reliably punish the 'thin' potatoes if you're too close.

[Tekacko]

You CAN NOT overpen citadels -> any shells passing through the citadel area result in citadel hits.

 

Try it yourself, set up a training room, get into a Yamato and shoot broadside Orlans point blank range. You will citadel them, not overpen.

 

If you get overpens on broadside ships it means you hit their upper belt (or superstructure) and not the citadel belt.

[loppantorkel]

40 minutes ago, Tekacko said:

You CAN NOT overpen citadels -> any shells passing through the citadel area result in citadel hits.

 

Try it yourself, set up a training room, get into a Yamato and shoot broadside Orlans point blank range. You will citadel them, not overpen.

 

If you get overpens on broadside ships it means you hit their upper belt (or superstructure) and not the citadel belt.

Are you sure of this? I'll try training room again. Got no yama but some other will do

[Tekacko]

Just now, loppantorkel said:

Are you sure of this? I'll try training room again. Got no yama but some other will do

100 percent sure since I just tested it, but go ahead ;)

[loppantorkel]

3 minutes ago, Tekacko said:

100 percent sure since I just tested it, but go ahead ;)

It may very well be true. The issue in brawling thin cruisers in CAs still remains though. You got heavy shots with slow reload that go straight through with little damage. If it's caused by the very straight angle you shoot and all shells go above the citadel...

[loppantorkel]

28 minutes ago, Tekacko said:

100 percent sure since I just tested it, but go ahead ;)

Set up another test with you in New Orleans and La Galissonierre, which is a 'thin' cruiser with a citadel above the water, as bots. 2km away full broadside and you'll mostly overpen. One citadel strike once and awhile probably due to dispersion where some shells actually land below the waterline.