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loppantorkel

Free XP ships OP...?

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I doubt they all have higher WR due to better players. Are WG making them all a bit OP at tier 9 to practically make them tier 10s but keep them out of competitive?

First Missouri with radar, now Krohnstadt...? Should this trend continue in your opinion?

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5 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

I doubt they all have higher WR due to better players. Are WG making them all a bit OP at tier 9 to practically make them tier 10s but keep them out of competitive?

First Missouri with radar, now Krohnstadt...? Should this trend continue in your opinion?

Bear in mind though you can't just buy these from the shop, so there's no players that bought them without ever playing the game (unlike tirpitz, asashio etc).

 

Similarly because they need free xp, it's not like the people that stack camo and flags and get to a Bismarck after 200 games.

 

The only way for someone with a lowish number of battles to get one is for them to grind one ship and then convert the XP. I doubt there are particularly many people that did this.

 

Instead, the average owner will have played lots of battles. It doesn't eliminate the people who just botted it, but will generally raise the standard of player that owns one. 

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3 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Bear in mind though you can't just buy these from the shop, so there's no players that bought them without ever playing the game (unlike tirpitz, asashio etc).

 

Similarly because they need free xp, it's not like the people that stack camo and flags and get to a Bismarck after 200 games.

 

The only way for someone with a lowish number of battles to get one is for them to grind one ship and then convert the XP. I doubt there are particularly many people that did this.

 

Instead, the average owner will have played lots of battles. It doesn't eliminate the people who just botted it, but will generally raise the standard of player that owns one. 

while I fully agree, it's also sort of hard to argue that the Missouri isnt a flat out better Iowa... as for whether Musashi or Kronshtadt are overpowered/flat out better than their competition, that's at least somewhat more open to debate simply because they're more different from their respective counterparts.

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4 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

while I fully agree, it's also sort of hard to argue that the Missouri isnt a flat out better Iowa... as for whether Musashi or Kronshtadt are overpowered/flat out better than their competition, that's at least somewhat more open to debate simply because they're more different from their respective counterparts.

I haven't played Kronshtadt, but it kind of seems to be more on the level of a Moskva than a Donskoi.

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Missouri is straight up overpowered. Even the devs know this. They've stated that they will not make the Missouri available for sale again unless they nerf her.

 

Musashi and Kronshtadt are balanced by making them extremely vulnerable to a class that almost no one plays anymore.

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Missouri has 1 additional 40mm quad bofor AA gun (~16dps?) and Radar (35s duration, 180s/120s cd, 9.45km range).

Iowa has an aircraft catapult for fighter scout or spotter.

Other than that the two ships are identical, does that make Missouri overpowered? A lot of people say that it shouldn't have radar but I don't personally find it that useful, maybe because I don't play in divisions?

 

I was always under the impression they removed her because they couldn't nerf the credit multiplier, which is why other t9 premiums do not have that credit multiplier.

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1 hour ago, Benser said:

A lot of people say that it shouldn't have radar but I don't personally find it that useful,

Try to hit her with F3 torpedoes, fyi those have 8 km range.

Plus, a Missouri player can decide himself when a DD will be spotted, i.e. when his guns are loaded and pointed at the DD.

 

What counter-play does a DD have against radar? Run, sit it out behind an island or spam F3-key at the radar cruiser and hope your BBs delete him. The last one is impossible against a Missouri.

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2 hours ago, Benser said:

Other than that the two ships are identical, does that make Missouri overpowered?

It's just that there is no rock to this scissor.

Cruisers? No.

Carriers? No!

Battleships? No.

Destroyers? Hell, no!

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39 minutes ago, Ze_Reckless said:

Try to hit her with F3 torpedoes, fyi those have 8 km range.

Plus, a Missouri player can decide himself when a DD will be spotted, i.e. when his guns are loaded and pointed at the DD.

 

What counter-play does a DD have against radar? Run, sit it out behind an island or spam F3-key at the radar cruiser and hope your BBs delete him. The last one is impossible against a Missouri.

Right, so because the radar range is enough to detect people using the shortest range torpedos available, other than Khabas, Missouri is clearly overpowered.

 

And you can't decide when a DD is spotted, because a smart DD will stay further than 9.5km, it's not hard to keep track of where Mo is, she's a BB with 15-27km surface detectability, thats 6km more than her radar. Besides, if I had the impression there was a DD within 10km of my Missouri I wouldn't be headed towards it so that I can radar it. At least half the time you use Missouris radar is to see through islands, the other half is cos you're already in the crap. And it still comes at the cost of a fighter scout (but at least you get an extra 40mm bofor!)

 

And no, DDs can't counter radar. Why? Because the point of radar is to counter DDs, for them to be able to counter it entirely defeats the point. Why can't CVs counter DFAA? And it's not impossible, even Missouri can only keep radar up for 35s every 2/3 minutes, that 16%/22% of the time.

 

My point is, radar is much better on ships that can support BBs, not BBs themselves. If you ask me, it doesn't make Missouri OP (infact I can't off the top of my head think of a time that Mo's radar had any significant impact on a game), infact I think I would rather have the fighter scout 9 games out of 10, but Missouri earns much better than Iowa. Perhaps if I could rely on people to target a threatening destroyer during radar, but that rarely happens when playing solo. Radar doesn't work well on Missori, and that +1 quad bofor mount is the only difference between it and Iowa.

 

It's not sold anymore because the credit income is OP, not the ship.

 

Or maybe there is a replay of a Missori using it's OP radar to claim the lives of 5 destroyers at 9km each like the unstoppable 100% radar uptime monster that it is?

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5 minutes ago, Benser said:

because a smart DD will stay further than 9.5km

 

Ah, yes. Using your torpedoes at such a range is really effective after all.

 

6 minutes ago, Benser said:

she's a BB with 15-27km surface detectability

 

Uj4.gif

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7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Ah, yes. Using your torpedoes at such a range is really effective after all.

 

You can't hit Mo with torps from 10km?

 

And yes, the Missouri is hardly difficult to keep track of, its surface detectability with CSM, CE and Camo is like 12km, or 27km when firing, so you know where it is in order to stay out of it's radar range, not a difficult concept?

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15 minutes ago, Benser said:

You can't hit Mo with torps from 10km?

 

If he has any brains it'd be a difficult endeavor at best. You know, just like any other BB.

And that's ofc assuming you have more than 10km range in the first place.

 

15 minutes ago, Benser said:

the Missouri is hardly difficult to keep track of

 

Yeah.

If you're playing on Ocean.

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6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

If he has any brains it'd be a difficult endeavor at best. You know, just like any other BB.

And that's ofc assuming you have more than 10km range in the first place.

 

 

Yeah.

If you're playing on Ocean.

And that's because it has radar? Because like I've said, other than that and 1 AA gun, that's all it has compared to Iowa with the loss of a catapult.

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25 minutes ago, Benser said:

 

And no, DDs can't counter radar.    I never said that. Counter-play ⇔ counter. I like the challenge to kill a Moskva and Des Moines when I play a Harekaze. Try doing the same to a radar BB.

 

My point is, radar is much better on ships that can support BBs, not BBs themselves.    BB AP is much more effective against DDs than tier 9 Baltimore ever was. Buffalo has to show a lot of his side to use all of his guns which makes him vulnerable. Missouri goes bow in and doesn't care.

 

It's not sold anymore because the credit income is OP, not the ship.     You claim that, got any proof? Let's review which ships were removed from the shop: Kutuzov, Belfast, Nikolai. Yeah, it was because the Nikolai earned too many credits. :cap_like:

 

10 minutes ago, Benser said:

You can't hit Mo with torps from 10km?    You can tickle him with your torps from 10 km but that won't stop his radar. To delete him you have to get close and into his broadside. 2-4 hits are enough against radar cruisers.

 

And yes, the Missouri is hardly difficult to keep track of, its surface detectability with CSM, CE and Camo is like 12km, or 27km when firing, so you know where it is in order to stay out of it's radar range, not a difficult concept?    Islands?

 

I don't know why you want to defend the Missouri. Radar cruisers are very strong at capture point defense but they have weaknesses, for example they are rather squishy. The Missouri has no real weaknesses. The one that she had was removed a long time ago when the Monty and tier 9s citadel was buffed.

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1 minute ago, Benser said:

And that's because it has radar?

 

Uh, yes obviously. While the Iowa can sneak around even if she pops up at close range she has no means to detect you unlike the Missouri. If you can't make use of Mo's radar in an effective manner, git gud.

 

You're the one saying that DDs should "simply" stay out of effective torp range from a Missouri. That this is how you should deal with her in any DD with a torpedo focused armament, meant to be countering BBs, is fundamentally broken.

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50 minutes ago, Benser said:

she's a BB with 12.2 km surface detectability

FIFY

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5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Uh, yes obviously. While the Iowa can sneak around even if she pops up at close range she has no means to detect you unlike the Missouri. If you can't make use of Mo's radar in an effective manner, git gud.

 

You're the one saying that DDs should "simply" stay out of effective torp range from a Missouri. That this is how you should deal with her in any DD with a torpedo focused armament, meant to be countering BBs, is fundamentally broken.

What torpedo destroyer can't hit a Missouri from 10km if absolutely necessary? And who can't work around radar considering, contrary to popular belief, it is does not infact grant a constant, omniscient power to the user. No Missouri player will always know you are there in order to activate radar before you can torp at shorter range, you can attack with escape routes to cover you if you get radared, maybe no one will support her while radar is activate, you can't just assume absolutes as if that strengthens your argument, that actually makes you seem less credible.

 

I do not believe that Missouri is OP, it is the least threatening radar ship to encounter in a DD imo.

 

15 minutes ago, SeeteufeI said:
Quote

she's a BB with 12.16 km surface detectability

FIFY

FIFY

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1 hour ago, aboomination said:

KS needs cruiser dispersion, I demand it.

Like that Stalingrad test-variant?

 

Oh yes shure,gib pls,weak litle cruiser needs it!:Smile_teethhappy:

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30 minutes ago, Benser said:

What torpedo destroyer can't hit a Missouri from 10km if absolutely necessary?

 

As said, all DDs if the Missouri player isn't braindead. 10km is way too far away unless you get lucky and catch him with an anticipated spread. And unless you gamble everything on an ultra dense spread, which is even less likely to hit, you get at best a single torp hit. Or none.

 

30 minutes ago, Benser said:

And who can't work around radar considering, contrary to popular belief, it is does not infact grant a constant, omniscient power to the user.

 

No, but the skill formerly known as Situational Awareness, now distributed to all players, combined with the minimap basically does. In a highly stealthy fast ship that can easily cripple or outright kill any DD with a single salvo while being practically impervious to counter fire . Doesn't sound broken to you?

Even if the radar hits nothing however that's massive amounts of information gained and can be easily used to discern where a DD is in all but the most extreme situations.

 

30 minutes ago, Benser said:

you can't just assume absolutes as if that strengthens your argument, that actually makes you seem less credible.

 

Good, because you've been using nothing but absolutes. In any realistic combat scenario it is impossible to always maintain such a ludicrous distance from a ship you're supposed to counter and have any impact on the match, especially considering said ship is one of the stealthiest capital ships around and cannot be taken out easily. Cover and surprise factor is straight up negated by radar, any ambush attempt is thus easily defeated by the Missouri not being completely stupid and passing near an island without using radar for information. And lastly, my favorite part, gambling that the enemy team is stupid and doesn't focus you is hilarious at best.

You're the one assuming that the Missouri player is always the dumbest mother:etc_swear:er around. Well that's fine and dandy but it's also irrelevant for balance. When balancing a game you always assume that the player is at least competent (as otherwise balance is practically unachievable). And a well played Missouri has very few weaknesses, none of which include torpedo DDs, a class conceived to counter BBs.

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27 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Good, because you've been using nothing but absolutes.

Assuming absolutely nothing except that any player has the ability to adapt is absolutes?

 

And I'm sure Missouri was balanced around an average competency. And in my first post I said maybe I can't appreciate Missouris godlike radar power because I play solo, not in a division. But that means I can rely on no one, and I am rarely disappointed.

 

Regardless, I've never said the radar isn't useful. It exists to counter DDs, that what it does. With that you obviously agree. I said, that doesn't make it OP, because it's just an Iowa with radar and no fighter. Against a CV that makes it most certainly less powerful (and it can attract a lot of CV attention since it has no fighter/DFAA, particularly from Midways), I do not think the Missouri is OP unless you only care about DDs.

 

It's not sold anymore because it's income is OP, not because it has radar. I would bet we'll one day see another radar BB, but we won't see another ship that can earn as well as Mo.

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51 minutes ago, Benser said:

I do not believe that Missouri is OP, it is the least threatening radar ship to encounter in a DD imo.

Take a look at your high tier DD stats. You don't seem to have enough experience to make a statement like that.

 

1 minute ago, Benser said:

It exists to counter DDs, that what it does.

This is the problem. It counters its counter-class. Which radar cruiser counters BBs? (Stalingrad isn't in the game yet.)

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11 minutes ago, Benser said:

Assuming absolutely nothing except that any player has the ability to adapt is absolutes?

 

Ah, yes, lets ignore that you've essentially painted a picture that always assumes the Missouri is an idiot, that the entire enemy team is garbage, that you're always capable of maintaining a ludicrous distance and that at such a distance you can catch a Missouri with enough torps to sink her in a timely manner. Totally not absolutes.

"Adapting" to the Missouri essentially means not playing DDs as you have demonstrated in all your arguments.

 

11 minutes ago, Benser said:

maybe I can't appreciate Missouris godlike radar power because I play solo

 

I play solo as well. And to me the Missouri is hilariously broken, because

11 minutes ago, Benser said:

It exists to counter DDs, that what it does.

this is precisely what makes it fundamentally broken.

 

11 minutes ago, Benser said:

Against a CV that makes it most certainly less powerful

 

Except that Missouri is an undesirable target in general, can easily become untouchable by all CVs and that the catapult fighter is completely, utterly useless in an AA role. Trading the fighter/spotter for radar is so hilariously favorable it doesn't even remotely register as a trade-off. It is by far the better choice period.

 

11 minutes ago, Benser said:

I would bet we'll one day see another radar BB

 

Yes, we probably will, because the worst part of the playerbase needs more catering to.

Doesn't mean it's balanced.

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1 minute ago, Ze_Reckless said:

Take a look at your high tier DD stats. You don't seem to have enough experience to make a statement like that.

 

This is the problem. It counters its counter-class. Which radar cruiser counters BBs? (Stalingrad isn't in the game yet.)

Yes, only DD players may have an opinion about a BB, because they are the ones so wronged by the existence of radar. I don't play DDs well, I know that, they're my worst class by far, but experience with Missouri doesn't count apparently. I own 3 tier X DDs, I don't play any of them because I'm not going to be good with them.

 

And you dont need gimicks like radar to counter BBs so why would one exist?

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