A Proposed Change to Radar

[reaper20k]

Not sure if this has been discussed previously, apologies if I'm duplicating someone else's idea. 

Radar seems to be a large problem in recent times in wows. Now we have new Cleveland and more and more high tier ships being able to mount radar module it's likely you will see 3, 4 or even 5 radars per game. Include hydros and DD's and other light cruisers are having a tough ride. Not all players I know. 

Anyway a thought occured that radar should only be visible to the ship that used it plus any other ship equipped with it. Rather than whole team. After all how could a ship with no radar see a ship in smoke if it wasn't using its own radar screens. Seems this could be easier to code than any other solution like no radar through islands etc etc. 

So if a ship pops radar then yes other radar ships can fire on you if in range but not non radar ships. As they have no radar equipment themselves they cannot see you. 

Thoughts? 

Again if this is me flogging a dead horse I apologise but couldn't see this in forum. 

 

Reaper20k

 

[tank276]

20 minutes ago, reaper20k said:

Anyway a thought occured that radar should only be visible to the ship that used it plus any other ship equipped with it. Rather than whole team.

 

 

Sounds rather difficult for them to implement, the whole idea of the game is someone spots an enemy, and gives through radio (or signals or whatever)  the information to his team mates to see whatever he sees.

Anyway, when radar ships are abundant (see release of new US cruisers) there are a lot of threads similar to yours, maybe your particular idea is unique but the whole anti radar thing is the same.

Let some weeks pass (play tier 7 and below) and the radar ship  population will be back to normal.

[wilkatis_LV]

40 minutes ago, reaper20k said:

Radar seems to be a large problem in recent times in wows. Now we have new Cleveland and more and more high tier ships being able to mount radar module it's likely you will see 3, 4 or even 5 radars per game.

Let the "OMG NEW / REWORKED SHIP" hype die, and you'll be back to your normal MM.

 

44 minutes ago, reaper20k said:

Anyway a thought occured that radar should only be visible to the ship that used it plus any other ship equipped with it. Rather than whole team. After all how could a ship with no radar see a ship in smoke if it wasn't using its own radar screens.

Yeah, lets remove the ability of this consumable to be used for some teamwork, bcuz f**k teamwork, this is my solo showdown not a team game!

 

And your realism angle doesn't work here either - why can your BB see what your allied DD / CV spotted if you yourself can't see that ship? Make it so that you see only ships you spotted yourself. I'm sure you'll love those enemy DDs who can always see you, but you can never see them unless they do some major f-ing up.

 

46 minutes ago, reaper20k said:

Seems this could be easier to code than any other solution like no radar through islands etc etc. 

You want realistic radar that doesn't go through islands? Remember that realistic radar also could (did?) run all the time, not just for 30s with a 2 min cooldown in between each 2 uses

 

47 minutes ago, reaper20k said:

As they have no radar equipment themselves they cannot see you. 

Also didn't like pretty much every ship carry some sort of radar? Especially towards the end of WW2? Definitely far more ships than we have in game capable of it did so.

[walter3kurtz]

Radar is fine in my opinion. But I do feel that they experiment with a limit of perhaps 3 radar ships per team. You start to see games with 5 radars nowadays. Either they cap the amount of radars or they stop adding more radar ships to the game. Radar ships should also be balanced around the fact that they have radar. A ship like Chapayev is incredibly strong compared to for example a Mogami that lacks range as well as radar.

 

DD's are my most played class by the way. High tier games often end i tragedy for other reasons than radar, mainly your teammates getting wrecked long before they can finally kill you with radar. And only when your team is down you start having real issues because unless you have Gearing torps you can't even fire back. Fletcher suddenly isn't so much fun anymore against an enemy with multiple, long range radars.

[fumtu]

I think that radar duration should be reduced at least for T9 and T10 US/RN radar. While they increase in range from T8 to T10 I think that all should have 30sec duration. With SRM 1 you can increase duration to 42sec for T9 and T10. Even that is too long but having 56sec radar or even over 1min with "legendary" upgrade for Worcester is ridicules. They will still have longer duration radars than Soviets. Except for that I wouldn't mind if radar mechanics stays as now.

 

[reaper20k]

26 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Let the "OMG NEW / REWORKED SHIP" hype die, and you'll be back to your normal MM.

 

Yeah, lets remove the ability of this consumable to be used for some teamwork, bcuz f**k teamwork, this is my solo showdown not a team game!

 

And your realism angle doesn't work here either - why can your BB see what your allied DD / CV spotted if you yourself can't see that ship? Make it so that you see only ships you spotted yourself. I'm sure you'll love those enemy DDs who can always see you, but you can never see them unless they do some major f-ing up.

 

You want realistic radar that doesn't go through islands? Remember that realistic radar also could (did?) run all the time, not just for 30s with a 2 min cooldown in between each 2 uses

 

Also didn't like pretty much every ship carry some sort of radar? Especially towards the end of WW2? Definitely far more ships than we have in game capable of it did so.

Didn't say I wanted realistic radar. It's a game I get it. Just an idea no need to get panties all in a twist. I appreciate the reply. 

[Ouzo11]

So the Worcester with his 1 minute radar, can radar you for the 5% of the match time with 1 consumable.
Oh wait, he can get 4 of these.
1 Worcester will radar you for the 20% of the match time.
And that is just by 1 ship.
Imagine a division of those.
Fun and Engaging.
Works As Intended.

[SharkMan77]

I will here copy-paste my opinion on this issue from a previous thread... and by the way, for all those clever people saying "you know the real radars were ON all the time"... bring them on please, cause they were something resembling the RPF that exists in-game, and not a "to the millimeter" accurate visual drawing of the enemy. Enough said!

 

 

Hi,

The greatest issue I believe is not the number of radars and hydros, but their broken working mechanism. Although the vast number of those comes second,  this issue could have been solved easily by limiting their numbers in each battle by the MM, and by putting equal numbers to both teams e.g. 2 per team max (meaning WG will never do it…).

 

Now for the main issues:

First, the “not-so-bright” mechanism of radar and hydro penetrating solid rock (bad game engine?). As it is, I can be safe using those while hidden behind an island, while my team makes passionate love to the enemy DD from a safe distance. (Not to mention the ultra “also-not-so clever” visual acquisition behind an island if it’s thinner than 2km…). Some players have mentioned that a cure (?) would be for the radaring ship to become instantly visible itself while radaring, but still, this is not the solution, because the vast majority of radaring is done behind islands… Just make it not being able to penetrate rock! PLEASE!

 

Second, the auto-magical telegraphing of a ships’ position to the rest of the team, when it’s been radared or hydroed. I don’t think that the appearance of a visually acquired ship, to all team members, should change of course, cause that would make the game unplayable for most players, but if the radared and hydroed ship remained “visible” either solely for the ship that detected it, or even just for those friendly ships that are at the same or a  closer distance to the target (compared to the ship that uses radar/hydro), that would be a great fix.

 

As it works now, you may be targeted by a DD that has 7.5 km radar, but the BB behind it, potentially has a 2 to 3 times “pseudo-radar” distance, because of this…

Additionally, the duration of radars is becoming hilarious… I would love for a petition to WG to bring those timers back to sane levels!

And finally, please WG, stop strapping on a radar to every new ship, or every ship that you think it’s underplayed…

 

Cheers,

Your local potato

[zeeschuimer]

1 hour ago, reaper20k said:

Anyway a thought occured that radar should only be visible to the ship that used it plus any other ship equipped with it. Rather than whole team.

When there are ships equipped with whatever sensors it is possible to relay that information to other ships.

No matter how advanced the connections between ships are, it is simple to call out a threat bearing and eventual distance of a target found by a ship.

Every warship in the era we are playing has/had a plotting room, where the position of the own ship, other friendly ships and al other contacts where and still are monitored. Else scouting at sea would be useless.  

[zeeschuimer]

26 minutes ago, SharkMan77 said:

 

I will here copy-paste my opinion on this issue from a previous thread... and by the way, for all those clever people saying "you know the real radars were ON all the time"... bring them on please, cause they were something resembling the RPF that exists in-game, and not a "to the millimeter" accurate visual drawing of the enemy. Enough said!

 

This game is not a religion, m8. They are just right. In this game, if you introduce RADAR, do it right. So no RADAR cool down (or SONAR). There is a few things more about this.

1. a RADAR/ SONAR detected ship would not suddenly be visible for the eye with or

without these systems, 

2. use of RADAR/SONAR means almost certain the transmitting ship is visible as well,

3. the ship using RADAR/SONAR would give up his visibility range. Better, they should be shown on the enemy's minimap as far as the RADAR reaches itself, or even further. Just like what happens with it when it fires guns.

The ones that say RADARs were on all the times is crap. RADAR will certainly betray ones position, so it will be on only when there is no other option, or if you don't care being detected as first ship. This matter is far more complex than like a RADAR where you have to put batteries in like in the game.

The discussion about this is far from closed, because there are to many tings related to it that have effects in the game. 

With all respect, this forum is just the place to discuss that.

[ColonelPete]

2 hours ago, reaper20k said:

Not sure if this has been discussed previously, apologies if I'm duplicating someone else's idea. 

Radar seems to be a large problem in recent times in wows. Now we have new Cleveland and more and more high tier ships being able to mount radar module it's likely you will see 3, 4 or even 5 radars per game. Include hydros and DD's and other light cruisers are having a tough ride. Not all players I know. 

Anyway a thought occured that radar should only be visible to the ship that used it plus any other ship equipped with it. Rather than whole team. After all how could a ship with no radar see a ship in smoke if it wasn't using its own radar screens. Seems this could be easier to code than any other solution like no radar through islands etc etc. 

So if a ship pops radar then yes other radar ships can fire on you if in range but not non radar ships. As they have no radar equipment themselves they cannot see you. 

Thoughts? 

Again if this is me flogging a dead horse I apologise but couldn't see this in forum. 

 

Reaper20k

 

That would contradict the whole sighting mechanic and devalue teamplay.

And no, radar is not a large problem for the majority of players.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

5 hours ago, reaper20k said:

Not sure if this has been discussed previously...

WG is not going to make any changes until after the US CL are fielded and data is collected.  Changes might occur if the radar heavy meta sticks.

[Capra76]

4 hours ago, walter3kurtz said:

Radar is fine in my opinion. But I do feel that they experiment with a limit of perhaps 3 radar ships per team

Problem here is what constitutes a radar ship, the USN can mount a spotter plane instead but generally don't, the RN can mount radar but usually use smoke.

 

Also how to balance across tiers and even classes?  Atlanta and Missouri are both radar ships but I doubt many would willingly choose the former in a T9 match.

 

The only way I can see that working is if radar ships get strict mirror MM, DM for DM, Atlanta for Atlanta and good luck ever getting a game if you have Black, I don't think WG will want to go down that route.

[beercrazy]

main problem with radar is the unbalanced 3v1 per team and sometimes even 4v0 and you sit there as a dd and see enemy has 4 radar ships while your team has 0 and think yea cheers wg how to make my game sodding harder

[lup3s]

Why not remove the "lock" on a radared ship ?

i.e. you can still see it, but can't lock your guns on it (so the accuracy is worse)

[lameoll]

6 hours ago, tank276 said:

Sounds rather difficult for them to implement

i think it already works that way in cyclone. so i do not think this will be so hard to implement 

[tank276]

7 minutes ago, lameoll said:

i think it already works that way in cyclone. so i do not think this will be so hard to implement 

Good call man, never crossed my mind.

[AnotherDuck]

20 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

You want realistic radar that doesn't go through islands? Remember that realistic radar also could (did?) run all the time, not just for 30s with a 2 min cooldown in between each 2 uses

Someone in another thread pointed out that ships didn't actually run radar most of the time, because there was always a chance the enemy ships would pick up your radar pings and counter-locate you. So realistically, a ship using radar should be visible to all ships in radar range.

 

Radar and hydro shouldn't go through islands. It's more confusing than not for players, since it doesn't make sense. While we're not expecting an exact realistic representation, we do expect some basic rules of physics to apply, like ships taking time to turn and accelerate, bigger guns doing more damage, smaller ships having less HP, shells having ballistic arcs (except Russian cruisers), ships floating on water until they take too much damage, people die when they're killed, and islands being solid.

 

I also still favour the idea that radar should take concealment into consideration. It's apparently not too complicated for WoT, so it shouldn't be for WoWs either. This would also be useful against super-stealthy battleships.

 

14 hours ago, lameoll said:

i think it already works that way in cyclone. so i do not think this will be so hard to implement 

This is because cyclone reduces spotting distance (the distance you can spot, which is the light grayish cone on the minimap representing your visual field). You can never see past your spotting distance, even if other ships spots for you, with the exception of assured acquisition range, which is what radar (and hydro) increases.

[AnEvilJoke]

Changing something that makes "unicorns" SPESHUL?

 

[Exocet6951]

2 minutes ago, Mandalorianer said:

Changing something that makes "unicorns" SPESHUL?

 

 

You'll find that they're often the biggest advocate of things like that, because they know the game and know what's completely unbalanced.

 

But hey, try again.

[walter3kurtz]

17 hours ago, Capra76 said:

Problem here is what constitutes a radar ship, the USN can mount a spotter plane instead but generally don't, the RN can mount radar but usually use smoke.

 

Also how to balance across tiers and even classes?  Atlanta and Missouri are both radar ships but I doubt many would willingly choose the former in a T9 match.

 

The only way I can see that working is if radar ships get strict mirror MM, DM for DM, Atlanta for Atlanta and good luck ever getting a game if you have Black, I don't think WG will want to go down that route.

 

Hmm, that's a problem indeed. Maybe there is a way to check what ship has radar mounted. Would be a better solution than strict mirror because that would have a bigger impact on playability of some ships.

 

Yesterday I had a game with 5 radar ships, two Z-52's and a LoYang on the enemy side. Instant game launch when I pressed battle in my Udaloi, it seems to me MM is just lazy in balancing radar ships. 

[AnEvilJoke]

2 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

You'll find that they're often the biggest advocate of things like that, because they know the game and know what's completely unbalanced.

 

But hey, try again.

 

All I ever see is:

 

...but maybe I'am simply not worth speaking with because I don't have purple stats?!

(Rethorical Post, don't embares yourself by answering!)

[MrWastee]

19 minutes ago, Mandalorianer said:

 

All I ever see is:

 

...but maybe I'am simply not worth speaking with because I don't have purple stats?!

(Rethorical Post, don't embares yourself by answering!)

 

seriously... i really don't get what ur problem is with unicums (i'm none). sometimes i ride with some. sometimes i sink some. sometimes i get owned by one.... so what?! their skill not makes them better or worse buddies or enemies (well, that may be lol), their opinions not align all the time and their just as cool or not as anyone else ^^....

 

common sense and opinions might need skill and knowledge so to say, but u don't need to be a unicum to have grounded pov's on the games content?... on the other hand it helps if one knows what he's talking about, what in many cases (or threads) not necessarily is the case in here. so, to me it seems like ur getting bored of people who got bored of bored people, who don't have a clue in the 1st place.... its fine if these people than casually play for PhUn, but it's just as fine if others get annoyed by such behaviour. it's like divided traffic participants, one half driving by the rules while the other half simply cruises as they're pleased, while horning and light-flashing all the time...

 

nvm, somehow this negative obession to purple just stood out to me...

 

...and btw: bb's ARE op

[aboomination]

@OP : Taking away the team aspect from radars is wrong imo - BUT how about introducing a maximum relay range, so that only ships within a certain radius around the radaring ship receive the memo (i.e. all other ships see the target on the mini map but don't see it actually rendered.

Would certainly take a bit of pressure off the radar'd ship while also making the use of radar (in an effective way) a bit more skill dependent. 

 

That - or reduce the radar duration.

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

While I never was and still am not an advocate of radar on PA dds (despite playing them quite a lot ) I still have no issues with radar. In the dd games after ranked ended I'm averaging about 70k damage if not more. 

 

The real problem is this: DD progression through the tiers undergoes quite some changes and some habits developed in the mid tiers can bite you in the rear in high tiers. Secondly, dds aren't hard to play if you have a brain and plan ahead. Yet, if people met those criteria I wouldn't be purple in them and their global average would be far higher. 

 

Radar isn't a problem per se. The problem is that it hits the class the most people are terrible in (excluding cv due to small amount of overall players). As such the abundance of radar is seen as the end of days by a lot of people. 

 

Remember when everyone and their mother said you should never ever ditch the smoke on the Kagero for trb, because otherwise you'd die horribly? Yeah. It is a matter of adapting to the meta. 

 

And in all honesty. Looking at the US cls, those look so very specialised that I sincerely doubt anyone will play them a lot. Keeping the average player in mind: How long do you think a ship that is resembling a Minotaur without smoke and rn heal will survive? Exactly.