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Bratwurst_Bob

Scenario: AI reaction to Torpedo release is instant?

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I've played "KIller Whale" all week and with all kind of ships. DDs are the least fun, as they are relying heavily on their torpedoes to do the damage. But unless the AI ship is stationary they evade any torpedo shot from range with ease and start evading even as soon as I release them. That makes it very frustrating and has me playing stupid to get a result: I need to bumrush and get into shotgun range just to overwhelm the enemy ships lightning fast reactions. Not that I would ever survive that contact, but that's the only way. On the other hand their torpedoes are always perfect in alignment and even their prediction is always spot on. That would be okay, if I had a similar chance to hit. 

But since the AI never has to split his attention between a zoomed aim, the minimap, cooldown timers and their surroundings they can do it all perfectly. Maybe they could be some more human in their reaction times?

 

And maybe the Karlsruhe could ease down a bit with the HE barrage? By the time my Battleship has actually landed enough hits to sink it I'm a wreck if not dead.  But then again even my 11 skill point captain won't help when it comes to hitting anything, least of all a Fort from 3km. 8 Shots, 1 hit. Yeah, seems legit. Unless of course you're in a Molotov, then everything just blows up from his AP, because reasons.

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Multiple topics were opened regarding AI in scenario / ops.

Whether its AI focus priority, the fact that AI tracks undetected targets and so on.

 

But the fact is that AI plays better than the majority of the player base (slowing down, speeding up, turning, avoiding torps).

But the big exploit is not to get focused. Because AI ignores everyone else but the target it is focusing. So the recipe is ... do not get targeted :)

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36 minutes ago, Bratwurst_Bob said:

I've played "KIller Whale" all week and with all kind of ships. DDs are the least fun, as they are relying heavily on their torpedoes to do the damage. But unless the AI ship is stationary they evade any torpedo shot from range with ease and start evading even as soon as I release them.

Generally they recognize a torpedo launch and respond to it, so you need to take that in to account and adjust.

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1 minute ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Generally they recognize a torpedo launch and respond to it, so you need to take that in to account and adjust.

They sometimes ignore a launch if they are not focused. Pressing X again right before releasing the fish should help a little.

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43 minutes ago, DRA_Harkesh said:

They sometimes ignore a launch if they are not focused. Pressing X again right before releasing the fish should help a little.

 

Precisely this. Select a target to guess where it's going, press X to deselect it, remember where the grey line marker was, throw torps, enjoy your DMG ...

 

Can't wait until Bots appear in the forum and complain about undodgeable torps :D

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1 hour ago, nambr9 said:

But the fact is that AI plays better than the majority of the player base (slowing down, speeding up, turning, avoiding torps).

 

I can completely second this statement, so true.  The AI does more against CV drops then most players do (first hand experience).

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The "problem" is more that there are targets in ops you should not try to torpedo, as you simply reduce your teams ability to delete easy broadside targets, and others that needs to be torped to get them removed quickly.

 

And that requires players to understand what's going on   :cap_book:

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1 minute ago, Redcap375 said:

 

I can completely second this statement, so true.  The AI does more against CV drops then most players do (first hand experience).

 

But lets be just a little realistic though. The AI., or rather, the server, knows with perfection how torps are moving and won't accidentally oversteer, and simply cannot have its attention overloaded.

 

This generic "most players" nonsense is just trite, as if "most" of the people spouting it isn't also part of "most" players.

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16 minutes ago, AgarwaenME said:

 

But lets be just a little realistic though. The AI., or rather, the server, knows with perfection how torps are moving and won't accidentally oversteer, and simply cannot have its attention overloaded.

 

This generic "most players" nonsense is just trite, as if "most" of the people spouting it isn't also part of "most" players.

 

Just because something is "trite" doesn't mean it's untrue :cap_tea:

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3 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

 

Just because something is "trite" doesn't mean it's untrue :cap_tea:

 

And just because people like to meme something, that doesn't make it true.

 

Even the most potato 42% players out there can still manage a positive k/d against bots in coop.

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DDs overall suck in operations. What you need for those is mostly firepower. Some tanking might be necessary, but mostly just firepower. Best teams are usually 1 CV, ~2 BBs, and the rest CAs or CLs. That goes for most operations. The Halloween operations have a place for DDs, though.

 

Bots in operations are harder to hit than most other targets, because they move in different ways. Most of the time they're also bow-in, so they don't show those convenient broadsides nearly as often as players do.

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2 hours ago, DRA_Harkesh said:

They sometimes ignore a launch if they are not focused. Pressing X again right before releasing the fish should help a little.

I will give that a try, but generally, I only launch torpedoes at long range targets to herd them.  4 Km or less is my sweet zone for attacking. 

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One thing that makes playing DDs in Ops hard is that the enemies also tent to head straight for your position (+-) so launches are not that effective (that, and regular WASD hacks). Best bet is to try to stay hidden and move to a flank, but they tend to be pretty fast for that.

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3 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

DDs overall suck in operations.

This is what I have found. 

 

DD are very good in Coop where the bots aren't 'heavy scripted' to act in a singular way, but in operations destroyers are fairly weak.

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This is just like AI in all games. It can multitask perfectly, usually knows everything that happens regardless of how information is supposed to be collected and can calculate exact trajectories. Now, whether it acts perfectly on all info it has all the time is another thing.

 

Also, @Tuccy can we get some Ops for DDs, please?

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23 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

DDs overall suck in operations. What you need for those is mostly firepower. Some tanking might be necessary, but mostly just firepower. Best teams are usually 1 CV, ~2 BBs, and the rest CAs or CLs. That goes for most operations. The Halloween operations have a place for DDs, though.

 

Bots in operations are harder to hit than most other targets, because they move in different ways. Most of the time they're also bow-in, so they don't show those convenient broadsides nearly as often as players do.

Lost count of the number of times I've had players rant at me for bring a DD to an operation. And guess what? I usually finish top or at least higher in the final standing than them. And only one has ever had the grace to apologise afterwards. DD's do just fine, especially ones more focused on their guns over their torps.

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17 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

DDs overall suck in operations. What you need for those is mostly firepower. Some tanking might be necessary, but mostly just firepower. Best teams are usually 1 CV, ~2 BBs, and the rest CAs or CLs. That goes for most operations. The Halloween operations have a place for DDs, though.

 

Bots in operations are harder to hit than most other targets, because they move in different ways. Most of the time they're also bow-in, so they don't show those convenient broadsides nearly as often as players do.

I completely agree with your take on DDs in operations. Quite frankly, I've seen a remarkable increase in the number of DDs playing Killer Whale, often having 2 DDs in the team and in one occasion even 3 DDs :Smile_facepalm: (yes that was a loss).

Particularly the Japanese DDs end at the bottom of the list and I ran out of reports which won't help in any way in that regard :Smile_teethhappy:

With multiple DDs in the team, even if I do insane amounts of damage it will still result in a loss most of the time. And even if they do manage to perform somehow, the team would've been better off if that good DD player had taken a CL instead :cap_rambo:

 

And Halloween with DD is so totally fun! I kept going for the 1m damage :cap_win:

But here I had some real use for the team. There was ample heal, could hide in the green fog more easily and could do massive amounts of damage, but it required some more skill and WASD hack :Smile_playing:

With the standard operations they are basically just CLs with smoke and HE, but with shorter range, no heal, torps that often miss and have long reload times and very little HP. They are basically just bricks or perhaps mosquitos who end up just going for the easy targets to get some easy xp while leaving the hard work for the rest of the team :Smile_sceptic:

 

The few good things I have seen people in DDs do, are things like smoking up teammates (rarely see this happen though, except maybe Raptor?) and baiting the enemy torp bombers into torping them, as they have the agility to dodge more easily. But they depend on the team to tank and perhaps spot for them, increasing the strain on them and this way they increase the chances of the team crumbling under the pressure.

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19 minutes ago, AgarwaenME said:

 

And just because people like to meme something, that doesn't make it true.

 

Even the most potato 42% players out there can still manage a positive k/d against bots in coop.

 

If you think the initial comment is a "Meme" then that's your personal opinion isn't it?:cap_tea: 

 

I completely agree that people still manage a positive K/D against bots in Coop and CV's are normally top of the killing list.  But i'm talking about torpedo beats against CV drops with the AI being alot better than the "Majority" of Players in random.  Regardless of who you or I think fits into the "Majority" list. 

 

1 hour ago, Redcap375 said:

 

The AI does more against CV drops then most players do (first hand experience).

 

 I take it you think the majority of players do better then the AI when trying to avoid drops?  It's your opinion at the end of the day, nothing more. 

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Unlike many players of this game the bots still remember where the WASD keys are when the start firing their guns.

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30 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

DDs overall suck in operations. What you need for those is mostly firepower. Some tanking might be necessary, but mostly just firepower. Best teams are usually 1 CV, ~2 BBs, and the rest CAs or CLs. That goes for most operations. The Halloween operations have a place for DDs, though.

 

Bots in operations are harder to hit than most other targets, because they move in different ways. Most of the time they're also bow-in, so they don't show those convenient broadsides nearly as often as players do.

 

I tend to agree, it's about fire power and having a CV.  The enemy CV's doesn't strafe which makes your life a doddle and they don't even try to avoid your own strafe.  They fly in a straight line.   I personally find cruisers and 2 BB's do well.

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3 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Do not mistake random course changes for torpedo evasion.

 

Turns into =>
 

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

Other people hit with their torps without such arcane measures..

 

 

 

I love how you're so damn fluid in your opinions that you go from "tinfoil hat moment" to "I don't have to do that" when demonstrated that you're wrong :Smile_teethhappy:

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It is the same opinion...

Arcane measures --> "tinfoil hat moment"

 

When you torp at the right moment, the bot will not evade without you deselcting him.

If you torp before the target spots your teammates or one of you teammates opens fire on the bot, it should be no big surprise that the bot changes course...

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26 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

This is what I have found. 

 

DD are very good in Coop where the bots aren't 'heavy scripted' to act in a singular way, but in operations destroyers are fairly weak.

 

There's some openings for DDs to have a good role in most ops, but that often requires you to sit back and do little until then (like defense of newport, where having a DD to do heavy hits on the final wave of BBs is very good). And others were you can do well (say, by running straight for the CVs in aegis, but that could be done as well or better by a CA/CL, your actual best value in that op might very well be to smoke up a friendly CA/CL for the 2nd wave to be able to clear it with minimal damage taken, but that doesn't give you in return personally). Though take raptor and there's more or less nothing you can do there as a DD you wouldn't be able to do better in a different class of ship. Still that doesn't mean a competent player can't still outplay a worse on in a more suitable ship, it just becomes problematic when a bad player picks a poor choice of ship and is ignorant of the ops parameters.

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