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vikingw

Midway AP bombs

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Hi WG.

As some of the few players, I actually enjoy a CV play once in a while. Recently I played with some friends in a division, and I have to agree with them. Midway AP bombs are pretty broken. You can delete some cruisers in 1 strike, but tier 9-10 bbs go almost unpunished (10-30 K dmg) It seems pretty ironic, that cruisers set up to counter CVs can get wrecked in that matter. 

But I am not here to complain, I just wanted to outline the issue. I was wondering, if not the AP bombs could be designed in such a way, that cruisers couldn't be killed in 1 strike, but BBs get hit a bit harder. Maybe let the AP bombs have a more niche-kind of dmg on ships with turtleback, since they get extra protection CQC due to the armors cheme? I know Tirpitz and Bismarck players will complain, since they already suffer under AP bombs, but that is simply up to the WG staffs;-) 

Bottomline: why not make AP-bombs more specialized against turtleback - let the design have a drawback, like every other armor scheme 


No hard feelings folk - this is just a suggestion:)


Ps. Please stay on the subject, and do not post anything unless it is related to the topic:)

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Basically yes, AP bombs could be set up to punish only BBs by giving them a less sensitive fuze (so that they don't arm on cruisers) and either more penetration power to score citadels or more alpha strike so their penetration damage is boosted.

I believe it's practically impossible for AP bombs to punish only turtlebacks. In fact a turtleback is technically speaking desirable against AP bombs as they can make them bounce (if steep enough) or just present more armor for them to penetrate due to their angle.

 

Personally I'd just remove AP bombs and tie DB accuracy to a skill based mechanic (something as simple as "the earlier you lock, the more accurate the drop is gonna be" will suffice), then reduce service times of US squads. The 1000lb HE bombs are extremely potent if they manage to get most or all of their bombs on target, only let down by RNG and hilariously long service times.

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Good call. Will never forget taking 35k damage from those bombs in my Amagi. And while it was hilarious fun to push up a flank in the Chung mu and watch a clan mate flat out delete the enemy dm, this kind of instagibbing is bad for the game health, especially since there are situations where you can't do anything about it. 

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Cruisers get radars, and most switch to hydro and radar instead of DAA and get killed. Midway can delete anything it wants if it has no DAA be it a BB or CA, that has only one counter - teampley, but that is long gone, so just enjoy.

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12 hours ago, vikingw said:

Hi WG.

As some of the few players, I actually enjoy a CV play once in a while. Recently I played with some friends in a division, and I have to agree with them. Midway AP bombs are pretty broken. You can delete some cruisers in 1 strike, but tier 9-10 bbs go almost unpunished (10-30 K dmg) It seems pretty ironic, that cruisers set up to counter CVs can get wrecked in that matter. 

But I am not here to complain, I just wanted to outline the issue. I was wondering, if not the AP bombs could be designed in such a way, that cruisers couldn't be killed in 1 strike, but BBs get hit a bit harder. Maybe let the AP bombs have a more niche-kind of dmg on ships with turtleback, since they get extra protection CQC due to the armors cheme? I know Tirpitz and Bismarck players will complain, since they already suffer under AP bombs, but that is simply up to the WG staffs;-) 

Bottomline: why not make AP-bombs more specialized against turtleback - let the design have a drawback, like every other armor scheme 


No hard feelings folk - this is just a suggestion:)

Well, apart from Kurfürst and Bayern, the German turtlebacks already are susceptible to getting oneshot. I guess apart from expanding it to the two ships mentioned, there's little extra vulnerability you could add. As a Bismarck player, I'd not give a damn if your AP bombers became even more lethal, because you can't bomb me for more than my max hp anyway, which AP bombers often already do.

 

I'm no CV player, but I do wonder whether it is a good idea to reduce the amount of ships AP bombs can delete. It seems so niche, why would you use bombers that can only delete German BBs and are garbage vs everything else, if you could take HE bombers and just have more consistent performance? For a carrier, it isn't exactly hard to kill the Germans with torpedo bombers anyway. Turtleback doesn't do a thing there and the torpedo belt on Germans is certainly nothing to write home about.

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4 hours ago, Azalgor said:

Cruisers get radars, and most switch to hydro and radar instead of DAA and get killed. Midway can delete anything it wants if it has no DAA be it a BB or CA, that has only one counter - teampley, but that is long gone, so just enjoy.

 

guy that brags about suiciding on purpose to spite his teams, cries about lack of teamplay

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10 minutes ago, AgarwaenME said:

 

guy that brags about suiciding on purpose to spite his teams, cries about lack of teamplay

This thread is about suggestions regarding balancing AP bombs - anything else than that, pls take it to a different forum!

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1 minute ago, vikingw said:

This thread is about suggestions regarding balancing AP bombs - anything else than that, pls take it to a different forum!

 

Then make this quote to the guy who mentioned these things.

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1 minute ago, AgarwaenME said:

 

Then make this quote to the guy who mentioned these things.

The difference her is Azalgor had an opinion about the Midway. ArgawaenMEonly wrote something to shame him. I know can't demand how you behave on this topic, but I hope you will only make post with suggestions or oppinoions about the ship balance.

4 hours ago, Azalgor said:

Cruisers get radars, and most switch to hydro and radar instead of DAA and get killed. Midway can delete anything it wants if it has no DAA be it a BB or CA, that has only one counter - teampley, but that is long gone, so just enjoy.

 

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3 minutes ago, vikingw said:

The difference her is Azalgor had an opinion about the Midway. ArgawaenMEonly wrote something to shame him. I know can't demand how you behave on this topic, but I hope you will only make post with suggestions or oppinoions about the ship balance.

 

 

He referred to lack of team play making these ships hard to counter. I simply pointed at his own statements on how he acts in teams and how he's part of that problem.

 

A lack of teamplay causing any ship to be more powerful than it "should" be is no real cause to change those ships.

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you want balance? get yourself a full aa build des memes or worcester there you go plane problems solved! also you think that a bb should get unpunished when a CV comes after him? that didnt hapen with the bismarck and yamato.

also  AP bombs are fine say thank you that fighters dont get rockets

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2 minutes ago, AgarwaenME said:

 

He referred to lack of team play making these ships hard to counter. I simply pointed at his own statements on how he acts in teams and how he's part of that problem.

 

A lack of teamplay causing any ship to be more powerful than it "should" be is no real cause to change those ships.

I am done debating this! 

 

Pls start a new topic if you wish to pursue this further 

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Just now, vikingw said:

I am done debating this! 

 

Pls start a new topic if you wish to pursue this further 

 

Sorry, I didn't realise you were a moderator..


I just made one point, so that will do, leave it as such and there's no more going away from your main topic.

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2 hours ago, AgarwaenME said:

guy that brags about suiciding on purpose to spite his teams, cries about lack of teamplay

 

Where did i cry about lack of teamplay on this thread exactly? Back in CBT and early OBT there were teams, i did not cry then, but when swarms of kids poluted the game like locust it all went wrong, and WG suported it.

 

2 hours ago, AgarwaenME said:

He referred to lack of team play making these ships hard to counter. I simply pointed at his own statements on how he acts in teams and how he's part of that problem.

 

If you wish to refer to me specificly, Im not part of the problem im the outcome result of it, when you go to forum, everyone mention 'YOU' this 'YOU' that, no word about teamplay, that goes to show that nothing else matters, thus, stat ma*turbators were born, its the only thing that counts. I stopped caring about both and joined the masses of the RED team because theres a lot more of them, you can say i gave up because i got really dissapointed in a game i was really hiped about. 

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5 hours ago, Riselotte said:

It seems so niche, why would you use bombers that can only delete German BBs and are garbage vs everything else, if you could take HE bombers and just have more consistent performance?

 

First of all, it's a common misconception that turtleback is what's causing AP bombs to penetrate. They don't. They actually provide extra protection due to angling. The reason why T7-9 KM BBs are vulnerable to AP bombs is because they have insufficient deck protection on large parts of their ships.

 

There's a few reasons as to why I've been using AP bombs on my Midway (Enterprise is a no brainer because T7 USN HE bombs are comparable to IJN ones in performance with worse accuracy, making them worse than AP bombs even against targets that don't eat citadels).

Currently my biggest reason is the amount of idiots sailing around without DFAA. If I can take out a DD and a utility cruiser in a strike, that's two high impact ships gone. So instead of killing one ship and torching another for a decent chunk, I get two kills almost every time I fly a strike until I eventually run out of targets.

AP bombs are also a LOT more accurate than HE bombs, thus they don't have to rely on RNG to give you big hits. The manual drop circle is just slightly bigger than a DD. If I can catch a ship vulnerable to AP bombs at the right moment, that's almost a guaranteed kill with no interference from RNG whatsoever. All my bombs will hit and inevitably cause crippling or outright fatal damage.

They also fit quite nicely into the 2/2/2 loadout of a Midway. You already have two TB squads which are general purpose (and devastatingly so), decreasing the value of having another general purpose weapon. As such you can afford to trade your DBs off for a more specialized choice, which can even be recommended considering the current meta and if you're skilled enough to make them work. It's not a direct downgrade by any means, AP bombs still do decent damage against all but the most lightly armored targets. Less than a big HE bomb hit, but without all the RNG tacked on to HE bombs too.

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6 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

First of all, it's a common misconception that turtleback is what's causing AP bombs to penetrate. They don't. They actually provide extra protection due to angling. The reason why T7-9 KM BBs are vulnerable to AP bombs is because they have insufficient deck protection on large parts of their ships.

I know turtleback isn't what causes Germans to die to AP bombs (else, T6 and T10 would die too), but the person I quoted argued that the AP should maybe be designed more as a weapon punishing Germans, which imo, they already do (apart from T6 and T10) and I don't see the reason of making the target choice more narrow.

  • Cool 1

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Im not sure what gives you all the idea that cruisers catch better AP: its the deck armour that causes citadel hits or penetrations. 

I've had runs in my essex where ive deleted an Moskva without using my torpedo bombers, ive had runs on a GK doing the exact same thing. 
Most brutal hit so far: 12 citadels and 1 pen on a GK, total 97k dmg (all his HP). 

 

The key to making hard hits on a battleship really is to use manual drop and to make sure that you hit the center of the ship. In that way pretty much any battlehip will catch up to 30k per strike. 
For cruisers it's more likely you already do a manual drop, since the aiming reticle is larger than most cruisers (as opposed to being smaller than a GK or F der G). 

However, the added benefit for manual drops on battleships is insane- go ahead and test this in a training room. Try to kill 1 GK with manuals and 1 with autos and you'll find youre done 3x faster with the manuals. 

 

AP bombs also tend to be less predictable in damage to cruisers: i've had runs on cruisers for around 2k per drop (set of dive bombers), but i've also deleted a full HP ibuki once, where the japanese donnot tend to be my favourite targets for AP. 

But again; it's all in the deck armour & you gotta find out what works & what doesnt. I'm not sure if theres any difference between essex and midway bombers, i dont have the midway yet, but in general the turtleback armour scheme is coupled to a very good deck armour, which makes the AP so strong against this. IT IS NOT THE TURTLEBACK SCHEME ITSELF THAT DOES THE TRICK HERE. But when im playing essex, all germans (even GK) are at the top of my list if i can get to them due to the reliability of heavy damage hits. 

 

I_Y

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19 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Well, apart from Kurfürst and Bayern, the German turtlebacks already are susceptible to getting oneshot. I guess apart from expanding it to the two ships mentioned, there's little extra vulnerability you could add. As a Bismarck player, I'd not give a damn if your AP bombers became even more lethal, because you can't bomb me for more than my max hp anyway, which AP bombers often already do.

 

I'm no CV player, but I do wonder whether it is a good idea to reduce the amount of ships AP bombs can delete. It seems so niche, why would you use bombers that can only delete German BBs and are garbage vs everything else, if you could take HE bombers and just have more consistent performance? For a carrier, it isn't exactly hard to kill the Germans with torpedo bombers anyway. Turtleback doesn't do a thing there and the torpedo belt on Germans is certainly nothing to write home about.

Well by god can you even imagine how much fun it is to delete a full HP battleship even without using torpedos?

 

In addition; the dive bombers are actually much more versatile: they can attack most battleships well, a good number of cruisers and even some destroyers, although the latter is tricky. And they may inflict catastrophical damage to enemy carriers- if they have a nice armour scheme. 

 

Dont forget that along with AP bombs you'll always have 1 set of torpedos- even 2 if you're playing the midway. 

 

So why do we do it? Cause doing 70k damage with HE bombs is tricky, with AP it can be 1 well aimed / timed run. 

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4 hours ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Well by god can you even imagine how much fun it is to delete a full HP battleship even without using torpedos?

 

In addition; the dive bombers are actually much more versatile: they can attack most battleships well, a good number of cruisers and even some destroyers, although the latter is tricky. And they may inflict catastrophical damage to enemy carriers- if they have a nice armour scheme. 

 

Dont forget that along with AP bombs you'll always have 1 set of torpedos- even 2 if you're playing the midway. 

 

So why do we do it? Cause doing 70k damage with HE bombs is tricky, with AP it can be 1 well aimed / timed run. 

No, because I don't play CV really.

 

For the rest, I don't see the point in response to the quoted text. I know AP bombs can harm more than BBs. The lack of versatility my post mentioned was no the status quo, it was in response to another post that tried to limit the utility to German BBs, but making it deadlier. Which to me was absurd, because you already can reliably devstrike most high tier germans and decreasing the target selection would make AP bombs way less attractive than HE bombs. After all, if your AP bombs could only harm Germans, then why would you take them instead of HE bombs and just kill Germans with the normal means for killing BBs as a CV, instead of giving up so much utility just to kill one single line faster?

 

Sorry if I seem pissy, but I had a bad day and logging on the second time to be quoted and feeling like people misunderstood my post. And after posting a clarification already once, why do I keep getting quoted? I do not understand...

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30 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

No, because I don't play CV really.

 

For the rest, I don't see the point in response to the quoted text. I know AP bombs can harm more than BBs. The lack of versatility my post mentioned was no the status quo, it was in response to another post that tried to limit the utility to German BBs, but making it deadlier. Which to me was absurd, because you already can reliably devstrike most high tier germans and decreasing the target selection would make AP bombs way less attractive than HE bombs. After all, if your AP bombs could only harm Germans, then why would you take them instead of HE bombs and just kill Germans with the normal means for killing BBs as a CV, instead of giving up so much utility just to kill one single line faster?

 

Sorry if I seem pissy, but I had a bad day and logging on the second time to be quoted and feeling like people misunderstood my post. And after posting a clarification already once, why do I keep getting quoted? I do not understand...

Okay, i think we just have a different line of thought here- i may not fully understand you indeed. 
Im not sure exactly what you mean now, could you outline it for me?

 

A. You want AP bombs to be effective against less different types of ships
B. You want AP bombs to do less damage
C. You suggest that we stop using the AP bombs (in combo with A and or B) and use HE bombs more often
D. I still havent have no idea what youre talking about, in which case i really apologize XD. 

Would like to give an adequate response now, im not gonna let you down with a complete off topic response

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47 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Okay, i think we just have a different line of thought here- i may not fully understand you indeed. 
Im not sure exactly what you mean now, could you outline it for me?

 

A. You want AP bombs to be effective against less different types of ships
B. You want AP bombs to do less damage
C. You suggest that we stop using the AP bombs (in combo with A and or B) and use HE bombs more often
D. I still havent have no idea what youre talking about, in which case i really apologize XD. 

Would like to give an adequate response now, im not gonna let you down with a complete off topic response

I mostly responded to a post that, as far as I understood it, argued that AP bombs should be made more anti-German BB weapons, being more lethal against those and not just oneshot cruisers, which to many seems like an unintented side effect.

 

My point was that:

  • Most German BBs already take lethal damage. There is no more lethal than likely oneshot.
  • Taking away most other targets and limiting it to German BB will make AP bombs unattractive, due to being extremely limited. Who'd take an AP Midway if there's only 4 ships that would ever get affected by your AP bombs?

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6 hours ago, Riselotte said:

I mostly responded to a post that, as far as I understood it, argued that AP bombs should be made more anti-German BB weapons, being more lethal against those and not just oneshot cruisers, which to many seems like an unintented side effect.

 

My point was that:

  • Most German BBs already take lethal damage. There is no more lethal than likely oneshot.
  • Taking away most other targets and limiting it to German BB will make AP bombs unattractive, due to being extremely limited. Who'd take an AP Midway if there's only 4 ships that would ever get affected by your AP bombs?

Id say i agree with you then, they can be a little less deadly vs german battleships, but the versatility is good as it is- not too wide not too narrow.

 

I agree that the APs shouldnt be a one trick pony, at first i was actually hesitant about the current ones because of this. 

Thanks for explaining also

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