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Paimentaja

Upcoming Roon / Hindenburg reload nerf

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Hi. Did not find a thread regarding this, so here it goes.

 

Read in the dev blog that there will be a nerf to the KM high tier cruiser reload. There has been a lot of conversation in other forums of why this should happen. The data in stats sites does not seem to add up.

 

 

Personally I am ofc not happy about this, since I like those ships so much and feel that they are just fine atm. If the long range HE spam is so much of a big deal, how about a slight buff to their close range abilities? Like, make Hindenburg's secondaries 128mm and a touch of more range? Torp range buff would be too much.

 

Any thoughts?

 

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They could have just buffed the other cruisers, but WG doesn't buff cruisers. They only buff battleships and Russian ships.

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15 minutes ago, aboomination said:

Just got the Hinden, bummer!

It's an awesome ship! If you liked the Roon, this one will take the you to the heaven. (At least for now...)

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7 minutes ago, dasCKD said:

They could have just buffed the other cruisers, but WG doesn't buff cruisers. They only buff battleships and Russian ships.

I kinda thought the same, but that would ofc require a lot of work. I'm not playing CW where they may have got the idea for the nerf, but in randoms and ranked I really, really like that all T10's are very balanced. There could be some really minor tweaks in mind, but this seems a bit too harsh. It's no problem for them to give a radar to T10 DD tho...

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Hindenburger is a ship that went from a very brawly AP focused cruiser to a 27mm bow armor, 1/4th pen HE spammer.

It has benefitted from global buffs and buffs to the branch and has turnt into a complete aberration .

It doesn't need a reload nerf, it needs (along with T7 to T9) a complete rework

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7 minutes ago, Infiriel said:

IMHO only the Hindenburg deserves that nerf.

And IMHO then on the other hand she deserves the buff for close range combat. If the long range stuff is the problem, then make her a bit more competitive in close range. Zao will receive (atm seems so) a much, much better torps so it would be justified buff for Hindy.

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2 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

Hindenburger is a ship that went from a very brawly AP focused cruiser to a 27mm bow armor, 1/4th pen HE spammer.

It has benefitted from global buffs and buffs to the branch and has turnt into a complete aberration .

It doesn't need a reload nerf, it needs (along with T7 to T9) a complete rework

I really have not seen any Hindy's in the games bow tanking and HE spamming in that matter. Have you?

 

It did benefit from the 1/4 buff but still ppl claim that her HE is garbage. Damage is by far the worst. T10's are the most balanced tier there is. What makes you say that the whole higher tier KM cruisers need a rework?

 

You don't even have the Hindenburg.

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The thing is that the Hindenburg is not particularly effective at long ranges. Her light shells floats quickly beyond around 12 km which makes engagements against cruisers very difficult. The problem of course comes down to the fact that the Hindenburg is just so much more effective than her contemporaries at dealing with battleships. Not just doling out damage, but at surviving against battleships in prolonged engagements. This disparity is caused by how ineffective other cruisers are against battleships, not against other cruisers and destroyers. At high ranges, the Hindenburg is very average in dealing with smaller ships.

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And they want to buff moskva bow armor to 50 mm !!!!

Someone badly wants Soviet ships to be played more ...

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12 minutes ago, Paimentaja said:

I really have not seen any Hindy's in the games bow tanking and HE spamming in that matter. Have you?

 

It did benefit from the 1/4 buff but still ppl claim that her HE is garbage. Damage is by far the worst. T10's are the most balanced tier there is. What makes you say that the whole higher tier KM cruisers need a rework?

 

You don't even have the Hindenburg.

 

I see it literally every single game in which there's a Hindenburg.
It's not just bow tanking, it's overall tanking.

And bad alpha damage doesn't mean much when you can almost always deal damage when hitting anything that's not belt armor.
I say it needs a rework because it's a branch that has lost its bearing compared to how it was made.
It was made a brawly AP cruiser, and it's now used mostly as a long range HE spammer because of improved HE.

It did a complete 180 degree turn on its fundamental raison d'être.
If that's not a reason for a rework, then what is?

 

And no, I don't have the Hindy, but I do have the Roon, and the Hipper is one of my most played ships, one which I've played since it first came out, so i'll ask you to not pursue that flawed argument.

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6 minutes ago, dasCKD said:

The thing is that the Hindenburg is not particularly effective at long ranges. Her light shells floats quickly beyond around 12 km which makes engagements against cruisers very difficult.

Exactly.

6 minutes ago, dasCKD said:

The problem of course comes down to the fact that the Hindenburg is just so much more effective than her contemporaries at dealing with battleships. Not just doling out damage, but at surviving against battleships in prolonged engagements. This disparity is caused by how ineffective other cruisers are against battleships, not against other cruisers and destroyers. At high ranges, the Hindenburg is very average in dealing with smaller ships.

What I've read is that the problem is the long range effectiveness. I like to play cruisers a lot and have to say that I do not buy this ; There are a lot better ships to be effective in longer ranges. Hindy will survive only better in closer ranges and that is not the stated problem. This nerf will make her even worse in close combat. Some ppl even said that they will choose the range module over the reload and use her even more a long range HE spammer. Agreed on the effectiveness on the smaller ships. It is as the stats point out, very average.

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14 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

And bad alpha damage doesn't mean much when you can almost always deal damage when hitting anything that's not belt armor.

That applies to every tier10 cruiser, except the Minotaur that lacks HE.

 

14 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

It was made a brawly AP cruiser, and it's now used mostly as a long range HE spammer because of improved HE.

No. The general (!) long range HE-spam has nothing to do with the Hindenburg itself, but merely with the currently more passive (nicely said) BB play. You cannot brawl even with a brawler if you have no back up.

 

 

 

Both of these arguments are gameplay related and not ship specific. Please try again.

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9 minutes ago, principat121 said:

That applies to every tier10 cruiser, except the Minotaur that lacks HE.

 

Except Hindy is the only T10 Cruiser which HE could penetrate 50mm of armour without IFHE, and only HIV of all others could do that with IFHE. Well until Stalingrad arrive.

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14 minutes ago, principat121 said:

That applies to every tier10 cruiser, except the Minotaur that lacks HE.

 

No, just no. The general (!) long range HE-spam has nothing to do with the Hindenburg itself, but merely with the currently more passive (nicely said) BB play. You cannot brawl even with a brawler if you have no back up.

 

 

 

Both of these arguments are gameplay related and not ship specific. Please try again.

 

Ah yes, it's well know that every T10 cruiser has over 50mm of HE pen to go through 38-50mm deck armor on BBs.

/s

You're seeing what I'm saying about the Hinden as something against the Hinden specifically.
It's not.
The fact that it was given, along with other ships, 1/4th HE pen is a problem in itself. The fundamental purpose of the branch was changed to the complete opposite, from heavy AP damage to pinprick, but constant HE.

This is stupid.
 

I mean, look at it this way, it has ridiculous rate of fire with long range but the ballistics are subpar.
So you want to go to close quarters, but the concealment, firing angles and agility is rather poor.
Herm...
Then you having very good HE pen...but low alpha. That's...one way to do it... It makes you want to stay at slightly longer ranges to wither people down....
But then you have AP with low pen with huge alpha that make you need to get closer. WAT.

The ship is dichotomically torn in two completely opposite gameplays that just don't mix. And that reverberates in the stats.
The ship has huge tanking and damage potential, but it's very low in the ratings.

 


Pick something and rework the branch to fit that vision, rather than applying bandaid fix after bandaid fix to that branch until it looks nothing like what it started out  as.
That doesn't mean nerf, like you're trying to make me out to sound like. Don't worry, you can keep your precious ship. 
It means a rework so it's not the end-all T10 ship that does absolutely everything, but in completely nonsensically ways by virtue of benefitting from lazy fix after lazy fix oer the course of the past 2 years that go against its original fundamental nature.

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2 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

I see it literally every single game in which there's a Hindenburg.
It's not just bow tanking, it's overall tanking.

I've never seen a Hindy bow tanking and not dying doing so in vain. Overall tanking is another thing, but only in closer ranges. She will lose every fight with other cruisers by doing so.

 

5 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

And bad alpha damage doesn't mean much when you can almost always deal damage when hitting anything that's not belt armor.
I say it needs a rework because it's a branch that has lost its bearing compared to how it was made.
It was made a brawly AP cruiser, and it's now used mostly as a long range HE spammer because of improved HE.

I still claim that this is confirmation bias, or the players do not know how to play her. I just won't believe that ppl will actually play her like that, because it's just stupid. It. Does. Not. Work.

 

5 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

It did a complete 180 degree turn on its fundamental raison d'être.
If that's not a reason for a rework, then what is?

I just fail to see how she has turned from a brawling AP cruiser in to something she is not? She is a brawling AP cruiser. She can do some damage as a long range HE spammer, but that is not the effective way to play her. If ppl are finding her to be a problem when played so, do the thing that will devastate her ; Shoot the frecking long range AP salvo. She can not withstand it. Never. It will always do enormous damage and sometimes even it's a single volley. If ppl are just so stupid to play her like that, it should not be the reason to nerf her, because even the stats say that she is not effective in that way.

 

15 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

And no, I don't have the Hindy, but I do have the Roon, and the Hipper is one of my most played ships, one which I've played since it first came out, so i'll ask you to not pursue that flawed argument.

It is not flawed when we are talking about the ship herself. If you do not have her, it is very difficult to put any weight on your words towards the nerfing part and how she should be played and what is the reason for her to exist and how it has changed?

 

I get the part why Hipper is your played ship. Now she got the buff she really deserved. How it have affected your feelings?

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1 minute ago, Exocet6951 said:

That doesn't mean nerf, like you're trying to make me out to sound like. Don't worry, you can keep your precious ship. 

Did I?

They can nerf the Hindenburg, I wouldn't mind! But they have to do it for the right reasons!

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37 minutes ago, Atorpad said:

And they want to buff moskva bow armor to 50 mm !!!!

Someone badly wants Soviet ships to be played more ...

You mean Stalingrad, right?

 

edit: no, you didn't (most stupid idea WG ever had)

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3 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

Except Hindy is the only T10 Cruiser which HE could penetrate 50mm of armour without IFHE, and only HIV of all others could do that with IFHE. Well until Stalingrad arrive.

True. And I'm going through experiments in Henri atm with the IFHE if there would be something to write home about. So far it has not been anything amazingly OP to be nerfed.

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The nerf is 1 second of reload, umm i might be just my thought (dont have hindy yet), dose that 1 second actually make a diference, Hindy will just keep sending ships to the bottom regardless, with AR it kinda canceles out the 1 second :cap_yes:

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4 minutes ago, fumtu said:

Except Hindy is the only T10 Cruiser which HE could penetrate 50mm of armour without IFHE, and only HIV of all others could do that with IFHE. Well until Stalingrad arrive.

 

4 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

Ah yes, it's well know that every T10 cruiser has over 50mm of HE pen to go through 38-50mm deck armor on BBs. /s

 

When was the last time you failed or had problems to deal damage with HE in a tier10 cruiser (except Hindenburg and ofc Minotaur)? Do you really want to tell me, that the HE on others cruisers didn't work (proper)?

 

And if the inbuild IFHE on german guns is the problem, will a decreased reload from 10s to 11s change anything? I doubt it.

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7 minutes ago, Major_Damage225 said:

The nerf is 1 second of reload, umm i might be just my thought (dont have hindy yet), dose that 1 second actually make a diference, Hindy will just keep sending ships to the bottom regardless, with AR it kinda canceles out the 1 second :cap_yes:

It really is when you are in close combat. AR works in the un-nerfed ship also, so yes.

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14 minutes ago, aboomination said:

You mean Stalingrad, right?

No, no, he got it right. Straight from the Dev Blog FB page:

 

Quote

ST. Japanese cruiser Zao, Soviet cruiser Moskva.

Japanese cruiser Zao:

Type 93 mod.3 torpedoes' reload time is increased from 164 to 171 seconds
Type F3 torpedoes' reload time decreased from 117 to 104 seconds
These changes streamline the reload of torpedo launchers for the cruiser.

Soviet cruiser Moskva:

fore and aft end armor belts' thickness increased from 25 mm to 50 mm
Better armor increases cruiser's survivability and allows her to receive less damage through the fore and aft ends, as 50 mm plates can lead to ricochet of high-caliber AP shells from battleships, when angled properly.

 

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