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GhostRider_24

Ship Numbers

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Hi all

 

Out of interest what are peoples view's on ship numbers in game. i.e. do you think 5 BB's, 5 DD's and 2 cruisers per team is acceptable? 

 

My own opinion is that this kind of MM seems unbalanced........

 

What do you all think? :Smile_child:

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As we are supposed to have some form of rock/paper/scissor system with the ships, the perfect balance would be 4/4/4.


Many players consider 5 BBs to be absolutly fine. Disregarding the fact that a higher number of BBs will reduce your cruisers effectiveness in screening you against incoming DDs or bombers. BBs themself often refuse to fight DDs, relegating the duty to their escorts (even when those are already dead) and their secondary batteries. Would they shoot DDs themself with their main guns, therefore actually assisting in the removal of the shiptype that is supposed to be the greatest thread to them, they would have less things to fear. And they often seem to fear a lot, as they are most often the ships in the rear lines.

 

Many cruiser players ignore DDs because they see the juicier hitpoint pinatas that are the BBs or because they forget to check the minimap and how to get out of zoom between shots. The same behavior gets them into positions where they will show broadside towards enemy BBs to get evaporated in a citadel galore. Or they hide behind islands, with no line of sight to the enemy, to prevent those citadels, in the hope that someone else will spot for them.

 

Many players already complain A LOT if there are more then three DDs in a match. Most DDs mostly fight among themself in the beginning. They only become a thread to the BBs in the late game, when both DDs and CL/CAs have been reduced in numbers. DDs are the only class I regularly see fighting all shiptypes. Yet they are also the class a lot of BBs and CA/CL players depend upon for capturing zones, fighting off enemy DDs, and spotting for everyone.

 

So with BBs often acting all afraid, cruisers believing their main target are the hitpoint rich ones, and DDs demanded to be in a support role, it is no wonder people believe that 5/2/5 is unbalanced.

 

 

 

But ignore all what I wrote above. What I really wanted to say is: It always depends on the ships and the players behind them.

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A good combination of ship types i my eyes:

 

1 CV

4 BB

4 CA

3 DD

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0 cv

2 bb

3 ca

3 cl

5 dd

3 subs

 

I'd like to try that. For current mm, it's usually fine as long as there are no tier 10 cvs.

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13 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

0 cv

2 bb

3 ca

3 cl

5 dd

3 subs

 

I'd like to try that. For current mm, it's usually fine as long as there are no tier 10 cvs.

Learn to count - you have too many ships even discounting the submarines 

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Any combination is acceptable.

Long term dominance of a ship type is a sign that this ship type is too strong.

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28 minutes ago, Egoleter said:

But ignore all what I wrote above. What I really wanted to say is: It always depends on the ships and the players behind them.

 

Ok that is a fair point the player really does make the ship but even the best of players might have issues if they are 1 of only 2 cruisers on a team. This is kinda a key issue I have with having 5 BB's and 5 DD's on a team it really hammers cruiser players.

 

24 minutes ago, Arakus said:

A good combination of ship types i my eyes:

 

1 CV

4 BB

4 CA

3 DD

 

Indeed I was thinking of something similar but with limiting BB's to 3 or even 2 per team and maybe limiting DD's to 3 or 4 per team depending on if a CV is present or not. I'd be interested to see how well such MM would work.

 

2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Any combination is acceptable.

Long term dominance of a ship type is a sign that this ship type is too strong.

 

I suppose that's the real trick how do you enure that no one ship class can dominate. I mean my own suggestion above could lead to cruisers dominating.

 

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You do not limit. You see what the players chose and correct any imbalance until the players choice is balanced.

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16 minutes ago, GhostRider_24 said:

...5 BB's and 5 DD's on a team it really hammers cruiser players...

The BBs I understand, but how are the DDs and issue?

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52 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

The BBs I understand, but how are the DDs and issue?

Shima spam/torpedo hell isn't particularly fun for cruisers either when one torp takes 40% of your HP as opposed to 10% off a Yamato... plus, lots of DDs means less opportunities for sneaking around. Especially when you're, say, a Zao/Henri without any special tools to hunt DDs with, or a Mino that has a hard time using his smoke when it'll constantly get torped.

Still better than running into BB spam, ofc, but...

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50 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

The BBs I understand, but how are the DDs and issue?

Because they will keep cruisers spotted, while not being spotted themself, while still being able do substantialy damage cruisers.

 

I fould rather face 7.BBs and 3.DD than 5/5. Thing that was forcing CA numbers down was not BB overpopulation. It was cobination of BB and DD overpopulation.

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If an average of five DDs per side was an issue before with cruiser players; and that went away 2 years ago, as high tier DD average around 25% or less now.  All is good?

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I'd love to have 1 cruiser and 11 destroyers in a battle when I'm in my Omaha or radar cruiser.:etc_red_button::Smile_izmena:

 

Can't see it ever happening though.

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1 hour ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

If an average of five DDs per side was an issue before with cruiser players; and that went away 2 years ago, as high tier DD average around 25% or less now.  All is good?

Average is only an issue in Forums. Average is just statistics.What matters is actually numbers. Actual numbers varie in time of day and week.

 

For example 25% means that somebody could get 1.per team (and start topic "DD Are dying, buff needed", someone else can get 5 (and start topic " DD need nerf, they are everywhere.) On average they are both wrong. 

 

Today played five battles, did not see 5.DDs even once. Two days ago played 18. battles, 9. battles had 5.DDs per side . Day before that played 6.battles, maximum amount of DDs where 3.per side.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

The BBs I understand, but how are the DDs and issue?

 

Because it leaves 2 cruisers per team which generally makes them useless because they cant do their job effectively without behind spotted and targeted by every BB in range. Oh and the torpedo spam as said below.

 

1 hour ago, Tyrendian89 said:

Shima spam/torpedo hell isn't particularly fun for cruisers either when one torp takes 40% of your HP as opposed to 10% off a Yamato... plus, lots of DDs means less opportunities for sneaking around. Especially when you're, say, a Zao/Henri without any special tools to hunt DDs with, or a Mino that has a hard time using his smoke when it'll constantly get torped.

Still better than running into BB spam, ofc, but...

 

1 hour ago, mariouus said:

Because they will keep cruisers spotted, while not being spotted themself, while still being able do substantialy damage cruisers.

 

I fould rather face 7.BBs and 3.DD than 5/5. Thing that was forcing CA numbers down was not BB overpopulation. It was cobination of BB and DD overpopulation.

 

Exactly the lower number of cruisers compared to BB's ect isn't just do to with BB overpopulation. DD's are having an effect on this too. Now 6 months to a year ago I Didn't really notice it but as of late I have started to notice a lot more games with only 2 cruisers per side. Now this does not happen every battle sometimes I see battles with very different numbers but this issue of 5 BB's and 5 DD's per team is starting to become more common but that being said maybe I am just starting to notice it more? 

 

32 minutes ago, mariouus said:

Today played five battles, did not see 5.DDs even once. Two days ago played 18. battles, 9. battles had 5.DDs per side . Day before that played 6.battles, maximum amount of DDs where 3.per side.

 

That sounds similar to my experiences. If I wasn't lazy I'd start a spreadsheet and take notes of such things.

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1 CV

3 BBs

3 DDs

rest cruisers

is in my eyes the optimal combination.

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22 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

1 CV

3 BBs

3 DDs

rest cruisers

is in my eyes the optimal combination.

^This. 3 is the correct number - you can always decide to put 2 on the one flank, and only 1 to the other... :cap_look:

Also, 3 is max for BB and DD - more means hard life for everyone else. Too many BB make cruiser life miserable. Too many DD make BB life miserable. And if those two conditions coexist, also cruisers life is doubly miserable, because they have to fight DD while being threatened from multiple angles by BB. 

 

Cruisers are the main working force of the fleet - and battleships should be "the core" which can be the decisive support either for pushing or for defending, but requiring protection.

3BB + 2CA + 3CL + 3DD would be optimal. For games with CV I would replace 1 destroyer, and with 2 CV - also a cruiser or battleship. 

 

And I almost forgot: of course whole teams should consist of maximum 2 tiers, not 3. :cap_win:

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I'm firmly of the opinion that a hard cap of 3 (or reluctantly 4) BB's a side would be healthy for the game, BB proliferation has throttled cruisers completely and many cruiser players have swapped to DD or BB. 

I went to DD's although I have ground all the cruiser lines to T10 now, I play DD much more than cruisers these days.

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11 hours ago, Egoleter said:

As we are supposed to have some form of rock/paper/scissor system with the ships, the perfect balance would be 4/4/4.

No.

Regardless of how well or how poorly the rock/paper/scissors thing works, it doesn't imply 4/4/4 to be the ideal, because the classes interact with themselves in different ways.

For a BB, a BB-rich game can be a plus. Other BBs force enemy ships to angle against them, opening more advantageous firing angles for you.

For a cruiser, it doesn't really matter how many other cruisers are there - the gameplay changes a bit but it doesn't generally get easier or harder.

For a DD, you HATE there to be too many DDs.

 

Basically

BBs are ok with lots of cruisers and BBs.

Cruisers are ok with lots of DDs and cruisers.

DDs are ok with lots of BBs and non-Radar cruisers.

 

Cruisers are a great threat to DDs, but they aren't as disruptive to their play as enemy DDs. As a DD in a match with lots of cruisers, you're in danger, yes, but you can make your plays much easier than in a match with lots of DDs - the latter might be less of a direct threat to you but they disrupt your play much more. The only exception is a cruiser equipped with Radar.

 

So, to sum it up - no matter what class you play, it's ok (or even preferable, in case of BBs) to see a lot of cruisers. It's reasonable to assume, based on that, that the "ideal distribution" of ships includes more cruisers than other classes. So, if we leave CVs aside for now (they change many things, are somewhat rare AND are supposed to get a big rework soonTM), we should probably want:

5-6 cruisers (2 of them with Radar, the rest without it)

3-4 BBs

2-3 DDs

with Khaba-like DDs re-categorized as cruisers for the purpose of matchmaking

 

This distribution would probably provide the optimal environment for each class.

1. Cruisers in this case mostly fight other cruisers and aren't pressured TOO heavily by BBs (since there's significantly more cruisers than BBs now). If you have a Radar, the consumable is important - and if you manage to get an enemy DD killed, it's a significant chunk of enemy DD force so it really matters.

2. BBs don't lack cruiser "prey" and there's enough of them to set up some nice crossfires; they also aren't swamped in torpedo soup created by 5 DDs that are too scared of being spotted by your friendly DDs and resolve to just torp the sh*t out of everything from afar.

3. DDs can launch torps that won't get accidentally spotted by enemy DDs. And those that actually have  a brain and a bit of situational awareness can actually try getting close to the enemies and making some stealth plays - because there's few enough enemy DDs to create openings for you even if you're not necessarily a Kagero. There are Radars to be mindful about but there's few enough that they can be baited or avoided.

 

Unfortunately, what we too often get (leaving aside the recent boom in Radar cruisers caused by USN cruisers split being on the way) is something closer to this:

5 BBs (unfun for cruisers)

4-5 DDs (unfun for DDs and with chances of generating torpedo soup unfun for everyone)

2-3 cruisers (unfun for these cruisers since they can't show their face and are forced to just spam HE from a hiding spot or, at best, from the edge of their range to be able to dodge shells and avoid 90 degree crossfires)

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7 minutes ago, lup3s said:

1/3/5/3

Sounds like the best for me too, even better 1/3/5(2)/3, with brackets considering the radar cruisers.

 

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4 minutes ago, tank276 said:

Sounds like the best for me too, even better 1/3/5(2)/3, with brackets considering the radar cruisers.

 

 

Ah yes, forgot about that one.

Also some balance between DDs; can't have 1 team with 3 IJN DDs and the other with USN or PA DDs ..

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I'd limit captial ships (BB + CV) to 3 or 4 in a team, make-up the rest with cruisers and DD's, but avoid crap like 1 dd or 2 cruisers only.

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I'd like

 

0-1 cv

3-4 bbs

5-6 cas

2-3 dds

 

Or any combination remotely similar. This setup provides the fleet with enough gadgets for any job, puts the focus on the influential classes as their numbers are the lowest, enables cruisers to play both support to the fleet and fight each other, enhancing the ability to use their ap against other cruisers, provides ample targets for bbs, carriers and destroyers and allows for a lot of versatility while keeping torp walls and lead rain to a minimum. 

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