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Astolfo_Is_My_Waifu

Some Ideas For Radar

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Okay, so, with the current event and the changes to the US cruiser line people are noticing and complaining more about the current levels of radar use in-game.

 

If you're in a BB or CA/CL then radar isn't a big issue, most of the time you're spotted at radar ranges anyway or at least for the duration of radar you're not at significant risk. Obviously there are exceptions to this but I can't remember the last time I was in any sort of non-DD class ship and sunk as a result of being radared.

 

Problems with radar are most significant for DDs, we all know this. In random battles, solo DD players must be smart in their approach or will frequently find themselves being radared early in battle and often that will result in being sunk. While radar exists to counter DDs and their ability to conceal themselves it very often leads to the DD being outright sunk with a single use of radar. This can be particularly frustrating because neither DDs nor anything else can prevent or counter radar except to outrange it and this can mean abandoning caps or playing further back and this can anger other teammates who complain the DD is being passive or not doing their job of capping and spotting, ignorant of the risks or potential risks of radar from ships that are either within reasonable distance or whose location is unknown, radar which could lead to a swift demise. But you'll then see such DDs who rush forward to "do their job" and sink early trying to avoid radar that came to counter an early cap, who then exclaim "thanks for help" as if teammates have some magic cruiser delete button or anti radar consumable.

 

To survive in the face of radar at the moment, it is important to know what radar exists on the other team, how far it extends and where those players are so you can avoid it altogether if possible. Spotting those ships so your teammates can eliminate radar ships is very effective, but without that support can be a wasted effort and some destroyers are unable to safely fire or torpedo attack outside of the potential maximum 11.7km radar range and no player wants to spend 10 minutes of a game roaming around trying to find an objective or target they can safely capture or attack.

 

I'm proposing two things below that I think will allow radar to continue to be effective, but allows some options to counter and survive it that allow both skill and teamwork to provide a chance at survival in more desperate scenarios.

 

  1. Make radar into a pulse - Have radar reveal everything within its range, as it does now, but for only 2 seconds every 6 seconds (or some variant thereof, perhaps varying by nation). This allows radar to do its job of revealing nearby enemy ships but does not provide infallible visual contact of those targets. DDs should be able to avoid more incoming fire, particularly if they've used smoke, with greater opportunity to maneuver out of fire. The reduced visibility will also make it more difficult for attackers to lead shots. I think this change should make radar into something that is as useful at providing information while not being such a severe hard counter to DDs.
  2. Make radar a module that can be knocked out - If radar equipment can be knocked out on a cruiser this allows more opportunities for teammates to support their DDs or potentially for DDs to defend themselves/force use of damage control without having to outright destroy the ship. I'm proposing that only the physical radar/mast area of the superstructure be considered, not any sort of internal staffed rooms. Problems will be that you don't know whos radar is active if there are multiple potential radar ships in range but how have you gotten yourself in that position to begin with... May add value to Preventative Maintenance commander skill, maybe also add some protection to Surveillance Radar Modification 1 (reduced risk of incap, reduces repair time).

 

These are just some thoughts I've had recently, thought I'd throw them out here and see what people think.

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On 1. It's equal to remove radar at all. 

On 2. Same should be applied on smoke generator. 

 

I will repeat myself:

Getting buff/nerf just because a peak in certain ship population is very bad idea. 

 

Just 2 week ago the usual MM was 4-7 BBs , 3-6 DDs and 2-4 CA/CL per team

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1) isnt such a great idea simply because the engine woudnt be great at handling it. Ships blinking in and out of detection are pretty bad, especially because they'd probably do so at wildly different times for different people

2) could work, but I dont see where the fun in adding just another piece of RNG would be...

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21 minutes ago, Benser said:

Okay, so, with the current event and the changes to the US cruiser line people are noticing and complaining more about the current levels of radar use in-game.

 

If you're in a BB or CA/CL then radar isn't a big issue, most of the time you're spotted at radar ranges anyway or at least for the duration of radar you're not at significant risk. Obviously there are exceptions to this but I can't remember the last time I was in any sort of non-DD class ship and sunk as a result of being radared.

 

Problems with radar are most significant for DDs, we all know this. In random battles, solo DD players must be smart in their approach or will frequently find themselves being radared early in battle and often that will result in being sunk. While radar exists to counter DDs and their ability to conceal themselves it very often leads to the DD being outright sunk with a single use of radar. This can be particularly frustrating because neither DDs nor anything else can prevent or counter radar except to outrange it and this can mean abandoning caps or playing further back and this can anger other teammates who complain the DD is being passive or not doing their job of capping and spotting, ignorant of the risks or potential risks of radar from ships that are either within reasonable distance or whose location is unknown, radar which could lead to a swift demise. But you'll then see such DDs who rush forward to "do their job" and sink early trying to avoid radar that came to counter an early cap, who then exclaim "thanks for help" as if teammates have some magic cruiser delete button or anti radar consumable.

 

To survive in the face of radar at the moment, it is important to know what radar exists on the other team, how far it extends and where those players are so you can avoid it altogether if possible. Spotting those ships so your teammates can eliminate radar ships is very effective, but without that support can be a wasted effort and some destroyers are unable to safely fire or torpedo attack outside of the potential maximum 11.7km radar range and no player wants to spend 10 minutes of a game roaming around trying to find an objective or target they can safely capture or attack.

 

I'm proposing two things below that I think will allow radar to continue to be effective, but allows some options to counter and survive it that allow both skill and teamwork to provide a chance at survival in more desperate scenarios.

 

  1. Make radar into a pulse - Have radar reveal everything within its range, as it does now, but for only 2 seconds every 6 seconds (or some variant thereof, perhaps varying by nation). This allows radar to do its job of revealing nearby enemy ships but does not provide infallible visual contact of those targets. DDs should be able to avoid more incoming fire, particularly if they've used smoke, with greater opportunity to maneuver out of fire. The reduced visibility will also make it more difficult for attackers to lead shots. I think this change should make radar into something that is as useful at providing information while not being such a severe hard counter to DDs.
  2. Make radar a module that can be knocked out - If radar equipment can be knocked out on a cruiser this allows more opportunities for teammates to support their DDs or potentially for DDs to defend themselves/force use of damage control without having to outright destroy the ship. I'm proposing that only the physical radar/mast area of the superstructure be considered, not any sort of internal staffed rooms. Problems will be that you don't know whos radar is active if there are multiple potential radar ships in range but how have you gotten yourself in that position to begin with... May add value to Preventative Maintenance commander skill, maybe also add some protection to Surveillance Radar Modification 1 (reduced risk of incap, reduces repair time).

 

These are just some thoughts I've had recently, thought I'd throw them out here and see what people think.

I like point 1 (obviously I am a DD main). I would even not mind a longer duration for radar then. I think its too strong a counter for DDs at the moment getting even more obvious with the current proliferation of radars with the US cruiser split. A blink to expose a DD's position would still make e.g. a cruiser turn their guns in an approximate direction of where the DD would appear next ping, while lessening the radar impact on survivability.

 

I have learned to play around radar's and while is does not make DD play impossible by an y means I do not think it was a positive addition to gameplay, especially since it seems this "new" gadget will get overused (put on a wide range of ships) till it just get's too much.

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Radar was a mistake. I'm not memeing, it really was.

Buffing cruisers by nerfing DDs was a horrible idea. DDs didn't need a nerf.

 

If they want to keep radar they should differentiate it more from hydro by making it so that radar only reveals ship locations on the map and does not render the actual ship, add something like an accuracy buff to ships while using radar to simulate radar FCS.

Then they could increase the range of radar as well.

 

Fixed.

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6 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

1) isnt such a great idea simply because the engine woudnt be great at handling it. Ships blinking in and out of detection are pretty bad, especially because they'd probably do so at wildly different times for different people

2) could work, but I dont see where the fun in adding just another piece of RNG would be...

1) True that it  probably wouldn't work because of the game engine, it's already crap enough at showing people within 2 seconds of when they've been detected.

2) I don't see much fun in the existing counterplay to radar, but you can counter knocked out radar with DC. I don't think knocking out modules is RNG anyway, you can aim for something specific to knock it out, like steering gear or torp launchers.

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1) Instead of ships blinking in and out, it's better to have a map-only reveal, as some people have suggested. That works a lot better for the fragile game engine.

 

2) Being able to knock radar out would work (it works for planes), although it would mostly just lead to even more radar ships hiding behind islands.

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3 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

1) Instead of ships blinking in and out, it's better to have a map-only reveal, as some people have suggested. That works a lot better for the fragile game engine.

 

2) Being able to knock radar out would work (it works for planes), although it would mostly just lead to even more radar ships hiding behind islands.

1) yeah, the pulsing radar does work with the game engine very well.

2) If they hide then fair enough, I guess that means they can't fire at you in some scenarios, forcing them to play more defensively still aids a DDs survival.

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in 7 of 10 cases the radaring are not able to shoot at the radared ships due to hardcore island hugging of everything bigger then a sardine. so, why worry about Radar?

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3 minutes ago, Benser said:

2) If they hide then fair enough, I guess that means they can't fire at you in some scenarios, forcing them to play more defensively still aids a DDs survival.

Okay, so let's make it so that radar only reveals a ship for themselves, not for the rest of the team, like it is in cyclones.

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9 minutes ago, SgtTincan said:

in 7 of 10 cases the radaring are not able to shoot at the radared ships due to hardcore island hugging of everything bigger then a sardine. so, why worry about Radar?

Seriously? In 7 of 10 case my Loyang in ranked could not shoot the ship spotted with its Hydro.

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1 hour ago, Benser said:

Make radar a module that can be knocked out - If radar equipment can be knocked out on a cruiser this allows more opportunities for teammates to support their DDs or potentially for DDs to defend themselves/force use of damage control without having to outright destroy the ship. I'm proposing that only the physical radar/mast area of the superstructure be considered, not any sort of internal staffed rooms. Problems will be that you don't know whos radar is active if there are multiple potential radar ships in range but how have you gotten yourself in that position to begin with... May add value to Preventative Maintenance commander skill, maybe also add some protection to Surveillance Radar Modification 1 (reduced risk of incap, reduces repair time).

 

Nice Conqueror buff.

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27 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

Okay, so let's make it so that radar only reveals a ship for themselves, not for the rest of the team, like it is in cyclones.

And then, same as in cyclones, those who have learned the art of "X marks the spot" can still shoot those who are seen only on their minimap

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2 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

And then, same as in cyclones, those who have learned the art of "X marks the spot" can still shoot those who are seen only on their minimap

Well, X works only if target is "smart" enough to stay stationary. 

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7 minutes ago, Episparh said:

Well, X works only if target is "smart" enough to stay stationary. 

Yeah, keep thinking that.

 

Slight bit of practice and I'm never bothering to get close to my target in cyclone, I'm perfectly fine being at over 8km distance letting my teammates spot them for me while I keep hitting the maneuvering target.

Hit rate lower than when they're seen? Yes, obviously. But you are still hitting them

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4 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

And then, same as in cyclones, those who have learned the art of "X marks the spot" can still shoot those who are seen only on their minimap

I'm okay with that.

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1 hour ago, Episparh said:

Well, X works only if target is "smart" enough to stay stationary. 

You obviously need to Git Gud. It is possible. Ofc you lose the built in disperion buff to locked targets, but hitting maneuvering targets is not even hard.

 

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6 hours ago, Episparh said:

On 1. It's equal to remove radar at all.

Actually radar detecting target for 2s every 6s would make very little difference to current.

Thanks to "rendering fix" ship is still shown to enemy for couple seconds after it's "undetected".

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