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ThePhantomNL

Counter the radar!

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Why cant there be a module that is basicly anti radar?

Like a boi kind of module. That when either sonar or radar hits. It can be deployed to give 2  false readings.. that is scrambles the radar.

Because atm there is to much radar in the game. Add something to counter it.

Or a silver filled cloud smoke. So that the radar cant penatrate. But the vis. in those clouds are very limited... do something like that?

 

And yes it used to be used in the ww2

 

Once much is known about enemy radars, they can either be attacked, if they're in range for a precision attack by dive bombers or fighter-bombers, or more commonly they can be disrupted by electronic warfare, which in World War 2 included two main types of counter-measures:

  • Jammers transmit strong radio waves in the same frequency as the RADAR, which saturate the RADAR receiver with signals so much that it can't see the weaker signals of real targets.
  • Chaff (nicknamed "window" by the Royal Air Force) are a cloud of thin lightweight strips of metal cut to a specific size, which can be dispersed from a heavy bomber. These strips are designed to be detected by RADAR and therefore instead of detecting isolated real targets, the RADAR operator sees just a huge cloud.

There are various ways for RADAR operators and designers to partially counter these counter-measures, part by having highly trained and experienced operators, part by technological solutions, and part by direct action, using RADAR detectors installed on fighters to locate and destroy the jammer-carrying aircraft.

 

 

 

Ps. It could indeed also be a airplay option for example. Or a carrier option to help defend.

 

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Yes, counter radar is needed. But not to be able to hide completely. For example It would be enough if anti radar consumable would remove the target lock of you. And we all know it's much harder to hit a target you are not locked at. Needs more skills but hey, WG is not going that way for years now. They need more potatoes. 

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Vor 15 Minuten, Sugertukas sagte:

Needs more skills but hey, WG is not going that way for years now. They need more potatoes. 

So what about the DD potatoes? Isn't it okay if they need some skill too to counter radar? Correct positioning for example, or how to bait radar before going into caps.

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3 hours ago, Sugertukas said:

But not to be able to hide completely. For example It would be enough if anti radar consumable would remove the target lock of you. 

 

I like that idea a lot!

 

3 hours ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

So what about the DD potatoes? Isn't it okay if they need some skill too to counter radar? Correct positioning for example, or how to bait radar before going into caps.

 

A year or so ago, I would agree with you. Lately, however, there seem to be so many radars in a particular match that the enemy team can pretty much radar you permanently. Or it might just be my MM luck.

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5 hours ago, ThePhantomNL said:

Why cant there be a module that is basicly anti radar?

Like a boi kind of module. That when either sonar or radar hits. It can be deployed to give 2  false readings.. that is scrambles the radar.

Because atm there is to much radar in the game. Add something to counter it.

Or a silver filled cloud smoke. So that the radar cant penatrate. But the vis. in those clouds are very limited... do something like that?

 

And yes it used to be used in the ww2

 

Once much is known about enemy radars, they can either be attacked, if they're in range for a precision attack by dive bombers or fighter-bombers, or more commonly they can be disrupted by electronic warfare, which in World War 2 included two main types of counter-measures:

  • Jammers transmit strong radio waves in the same frequency as the RADAR, which saturate the RADAR receiver with signals so much that it can't see the weaker signals of real targets.
  • Chaff (nicknamed "window" by the Royal Air Force) are a cloud of thin lightweight strips of metal cut to a specific size, which can be dispersed from a heavy bomber. These strips are designed to be detected by RADAR and therefore instead of detecting isolated real targets, the RADAR operator sees just a huge cloud.

There are various ways for RADAR operators and designers to partially counter these counter-measures, part by having highly trained and experienced operators, part by technological solutions, and part by direct action, using RADAR detectors installed on fighters to locate and destroy the jammer-carrying aircraft.

 

 

 

Ps. It could indeed also be a airplay option for example. Or a carrier option to help defend.

 

No.

 

I don't say this out of love for Radar, mind you. I'm a DD main and my relationship with Radar is as you might guess. But we really need to look at this from gameplay perspective - and getting your consumable denied with a push of a button is no fun. It's a bit like Radar countering smoke but without any options of counterplay by the cruiser - the Radar just becomes more lackluster.

What's more, the anti-Radar consumable would be, well, a consumable. Most likely, some new DD line would get it, the rest of the class would remain as they are - so it's no solution to anything, really, just another expansion on the World of Gimmicks.

 

What Radar needs is no magic consumable rendering it useless - it's exploitable weaknesses. Things like

 - usage of Radar automatically reveals you to anyone you Radar, you light up the targets but also yourself, making it obvious who's using the thing and making you targetable

or

 - Radar requires a clear line of sight (smokes ignored) so that hard cover protects from its effect

or

 - change how Radar works completely, giving it extra range compared to now but making the effect scale off of target's concealment (instead of being an "I see you" button) so that the stealthiest DDs end up with like 7km "actual" concealment, thus making the concealment value relevant even when dealing with this consumable.

 

 

I'm all for the idea of countering Radar - but it should be done by making Radar harder to use and giving the enemies more options of counterPLAY. CounterTOOLS are not what we need. In fact, it's more of the old smoke problem of old. Remember the World of Smokes? The addition of Radar was never a good solution to that. Changes to smoke mechanics were better (although a bit excessive, on middle ranges BBs should've remained capable of firing from smoke to not eliminate team-smoking as hard as they did) and solved the issue so throughly that - as it is now - we could literally get a BB with smoke consumable and (provided the secondaries aren't very good) the thing would be wacky but not impossible to balance (actually, when I think about it, that could be a pretty interesting ship (potatoes would potato, but skilled players whould get a BB capable of more aggressive play due to personal escape option).

 

 

4 hours ago, SexyCroat said:

i actually prefer the dolphin carrier idea more than this....

That's mostly because dolphins are awesome, though, admit it.

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Counter the radar in few steps:

1. Know where radar ships are. 

2. Know what's radar range and duration. 

3. Don't YOLO or sit in smoke, but RUN!

4. When you run DO NOT DO STRAIGHT LINE! Ever. 

 

Note: I am not a DD player, but more in CA/CL. This few steps are based on how high tier DDs react on my DM 10km/56 sec, Mos 11.7km/35sec and Mis 9.4km/35sec radar. 

 

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You can damage and temporarily or permanently disable guns, secondary guns/AA, torpedo launchers, rudders and engines and in some cases along with that render the according consumable(s) useless. I don't see any reason why radio shacks or antennas should be indestructable. Make them vulnerable to gunfire/bombs and there would be at least a chance to switch off the radar of the ship harrassing you.

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Sure no problem, you can have this module in your smoke generator slot.

 

Problem solved, you will no longer be radared in your smoke.

 

For another reply, I refer to  #4 in this topic. I agree 100% with that statement.

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Hmmmm ...

2017 smoke rulez

2018 radar owns smoke

2019 scrambler tops radar

2020 radar Mk2 beats scrambler

2021 ....

 

yeah and I would suggest to make scrambler/radar premium consumables only

royalties from this idea can be donated on Serbs moon village project

/sarcasm off (note for the really dense ones) :)

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16 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

It would be enough if radar would not go through landmass :-)

I would agree if it's permanent solution. Same should be applied to hydro. However radar should be able to spot metal objects that are above the landmass height. You should understand that radio LoS is different than visibility LoS as most of the radio frequencies can pass through solid objects and are usually reflected by objects with cinsiderable electrical conductivity AKA most metals. 

 

Usually the most considerable factors that affects detection are:

Height of the radar mast. 

Height of the object to be detected. 

Signal loss. ( different frequencies have different pass through characteristics) 

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3 minutes ago, Episparh said:

I would agree if it's permanent solution. Same should be applied to hydro. However radar should be able to spot metal objects that are above the landmass height. You should understand that radio LoS is different than visibility LoS as most of the radio frequencies can pass through solid objects and are usually reflected by objects with cinsiderable electrical conductivity AKA most metals. 

Hydro is passive noise detection, so it can work around landmass of sufficient thinness since water conducts noise. The problem with radar and LoS is that different wavelengths of radar behave differently and in case of bending/reflecting, the evaluation of the return signal would give false readings. So the usual radar in use is very short wavelength to avoid these false echos.

 

As to penetration of radar, that is a combination of wavelength and signal strength. I don't think we should complicate the game like that. It should be sufficient to be based on visual loss.

 

Basically radar should work like this: Is object in radar range ? Is object in LoS ? DETECTED.

 

ATM radar substitutes your view range with radar range for the detection check. view range is not limited by LoS, that's why radar and hydro see through landmass. Speaking of hydro, since it is passive noise detection, there should be a speed limit in game for a minimal speed from which hydro detects the enemy ship. That would allow you to creep out of hydro range undetected and hydroing stopped ships in smoke/behind islands would not be possible.

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And again this is an arcade game. I understand that the most of DDs are frustrated from the current amount of radar ships in queue, but this will pass. 

 

Radar is two edged sword it can counter DD for relatively short time, but just having that possibility makes you a priority target for entire enemy team. If you don't believe me go and take Moskva for a ride. 

 

If you want accurate model of the radar, then you should account also that it's not limited in time as even in ww II ships were tracked by radar for days. 

 

 

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Those radar-countermeasures are not needed, as the principle of radar is fine... the implementation however isn't. A lot of the current issues would be solved if radar did not go through islands.

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4 hours ago, eliastion said:

What Radar needs is no magic consumable rendering it useless - it's exploitable weaknesses. Things like

 - usage of Radar automatically reveals you to anyone you Radar, you light up the targets but also yourself, making it obvious who's using the thing and making you targetable

or

 - Radar requires a clear line of sight (smokes ignored) so that hard cover protects from its effect

or

 - change how Radar works completely, giving it extra range compared to now but making the effect scale off of target's concealment (instead of being an "I see you" button) so that the stealthiest DDs end up with like 7km "actual" concealment, thus making the concealment value relevant even when dealing with this consumable.

+1

 

4 hours ago, eliastion said:

I'm all for the idea of countering Radar - but it should be done by making Radar harder to use and giving the enemies more options of counterPLAY. CounterTOOLS are not what we need. In fact, it's more of the old smoke problem of old. Remember the World of Smokes? The addition of Radar was never a good solution to that. Changes to smoke mechanics were better (although a bit excessive, on middle ranges BBs should've remained capable of firing from smoke to not eliminate team-smoking as hard as they did) and solved the issue so throughly that - as it is now - we could literally get a BB with smoke consumable and (provided the secondaries aren't very good) the thing would be wacky but not impossible to balance (actually, when I think about it, that could be a pretty interesting ship (potatoes would potato, but skilled players whould get a BB capable of more aggressive play due to personal escape option).

Yeah. Despite what some claim, the massive smoke clouds didn't exactly stop when radar first came in. They stopped when smoke shooting was nerfed.

 

A smoke BB actually sounds a bit interesting. But I forsee it being used to spam AP (or HE for potatoes) from long ranges with even more impunity than now. Though if it has long activation time, short duration and long cooldown making its use limited to escaping then... no, I don't think that'd help much. Camping BBs will camp and BBs in general do not need more consumables that are supposed to be the specialties of other types of ships.

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And a lot of other will arrise as DDs will roam without fear.  If I am spotted hug an island to remove detection.

 

Perhaps, giving DD a perm detection of 1km regardles if guns are fired or not and unlimited torp renge is good idea. 

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As others have already posted in this thread - if radar/hydro did not penetrate islands (at least ones taller than a ship - although as ships vary in height it may be too complex to limit the height of the ship) then a lot of these problems would be reduced.   A CA at the moment can simply park behind an island near the cap and switch the radar on to light everything up.

 

I presume a limitation of detectability to LoS would work.    Radar would be able to detect DDs outside of their normal detection zone.

 

If the number of radar capable ships was limited (I know that's never going to happen) then the radar use would be limited to an extent.  With the current games the sheer number of radar ships mean that it's very hard for DDs to approach a cap and especially if your team is unwilling to support you.

 

When I play DDs I don't usually sit in smoke - the  only time I may do this is when the enemy CV has parked a flight of planes overhead and is unwilling to move them (it does happen).   I'll also try and avoid using smoke to get out of detection as I know that means I lose visibility on the enemy ships which doesn't help the team target them.

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I do like the idea of deploying chaff clouds in the same way as smoke... though that would rely on radar being constrained by line of sight as to not see past the clouds, ie. also not seeing through islands, which would balance it to the extent of not needing chaff anyway. Also making an additional tier of consumables that specifically counter other consumables just seems like really crappy game design on principle.

 

17 minutes ago, Episparh said:

Perhaps, giving DD a perm detection of 1km regardles if guns are fired or not and unlimited torp renge is good idea. 

I assume you mean 10km instead of 1km; there is a permanent 2km radius of detection already for every ship, potentially 2.5km with TAM. Your idea basically means DDs would stay outside of radar range constantly and spam torps because that'd be really all they could do if they had cruiser level stealth.

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4 hours ago, eliastion said:

What Radar needs is no magic consumable rendering it useless - it's exploitable weaknesses. Things like

 - usage of Radar automatically reveals you to anyone you Radar, you light up the targets but also yourself, making it obvious who's using the thing and making you targetable

or

 - Radar requires a clear line of sight (smokes ignored) so that hard cover protects from its effect

or

 - change how Radar works completely, giving it extra range compared to now but making the effect scale off of target's concealment (instead of being an "I see you" button) so that the stealthiest DDs end up with like 7km "actual" concealment, thus making the concealment value relevant even when dealing with this consumable.

These are great suggestions. I'd know, because I've suggested them myself. :Smile_Default:

 

4 hours ago, eliastion said:

Remember the World of Smokes? The addition of Radar was never a good solution to that.

When they added radar, before the smoke changes, a lot of people started hiding in smoke and using radar to look out of it. It was not just the Belfast. Which also led to them nerfing Shiratsuyu, because that was a ship that was really good at exploiting people hiding in smoke. And that apparently wasn't a good thing.

 

4 hours ago, eliastion said:

Changes to smoke mechanics were better (although a bit excessive, on middle ranges BBs should've remained capable of firing from smoke to not eliminate team-smoking as hard as they did) and solved the issue so throughly that - as it is now - we could literally get a BB with smoke consumable and (provided the secondaries aren't very good) the thing would be wacky but not impossible to balance (actually, when I think about it, that could be a pretty interesting ship (potatoes would potato, but skilled players whould get a BB capable of more aggressive play due to personal escape option).

I think for battleships, as long as they have a shorter detectability bloom time when shooting than reload time, them being visible so far even in smoke is fine.

 

Personally I'd nerf smoke duration overall, though, if I wanted to make players hide in smoke less. Less smoke to hide in means less players hiding in smoke all the time. Simple as that. If you have ships that depend on smoke for hiding, rebalance them to be playable in open waters better. Or they could, you know, learn to adapt.

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1 minute ago, StringWitch said:

I do like the idea of deploying chaff clouds in the same way as smoke... though that would rely on radar being constrained by line of sight as to not see past the clouds, ie. also not seeing through islands, which would balance it to the extent of not needing chaff anyway. Also making an additional tier of consumables that specifically counter other consumables just seems like really crappy game design on principle.

 

I assume you mean 10km instead of 1km; there is a permanent 2km radius of detection already for every ship, potentially 2.5km with TAM. Your idea basically means DDs would stay outside of radar range constantly and spam torps because that's really all they could do if they had cruiser level stealth.

No, I've meant giving them ultimate stealth. 

As this is what they are crying about. 

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Radar duration is limited. 

Humping an island prevents you from taking damage during radar unless you were "brave" enogh to dare put yourself in position surounded by enemies. 

 

*read "brave" as stupid

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How is the instant "l see you" different than instant engine or stearing gear repair? 

 

The current problem is american arc. Being a BB or CA/CL is not fun either in 5+ DD matchmaking AKA torp soup. 

 

So you should accept that being a DD in radar game is not fun either. 

 

Giving a buff to a class with highest influence(CV excluded) just to deal with a temporal spike of radar ship usage is really bad idea. 

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