Jump to content
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
StringWitch

Would you like co-op battles to be made 8v12?

Would you like co-op battles to be made 8v12?  

81 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like co-op battles to be made 8v12?

    • Yes
      48
    • No
      18
    • Something else (eg. 8v10, 8v13+, yes only for higher tiers, etc.)
      15

69 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

[BABBY]
Beta Tester
1,403 posts

I've been playing co-op more lately and find sometimes it can be a drag while sailing away to kill the enemy CV at the end, and simply by how easy it is to win in general. I started musing about how in scenarios we can fight like 30 enemies, and how it's rather odd that co-op battles are 8v8 instead of the 12v12 we see in randoms. It's also not too uncommon to head somewhere and only encounter one bot you kill quickly and then have nothing else to do because everyone else is too far away (which also leads to having to head to the middle of the map every time, meaning fighting in the same areas on maps if you want a decent number of opponents, which is also boring). Leaving the player side at 8 and buffing the bot side to the full 12 would help make co-ops more engaging and slightly closer to challenging. Maybe, for the sake of new players, the additional bots should be restricted to tier 5+ battles.

  • Cool 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
263 posts
8,596 battles

I wouldn't mind if the 12 vs 12 was introduced in co-op either, the 8 vs 8 can be a bit boring and the matches can finish too quickly. The 8 vs 12 sounds like it could work.

 

There was a mode they tested in the past which iirc was 8 vs 16 and you started in the map centre in a circle, but it didn't go too well and they didn't implement it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
894 posts
11,126 battles

Well, about coop. I'd vote for progressive numerical advantage for the bots, something like this:

T1 - T5 stays as it is (so I agree indeed)

T6 - +1 for bots

T7 - T8 +2 for bots

T9 - +3

T10 - +4

Numbers could even vary +/-1, so a T9 could get +2 or +4, plus ditch the mirrored matchmaking. This is a sort of legacy remnants of the PvP approach, "we need to work on a fair MM", and the simplest solution for PvE is simply giving the bots whatever the players are coming forth. This is not needed. There could be matches with even 0 vs 2 CV. Of course, not without limits or going into completely unhinged matchmaking possibilities (players vs. 12 DD), but frankly, I would not mind interesting matchups at all.

The quick matches are actually not a problem, the slaughterhouse is, so 12 v 12 would solve nothing. For the same reason (keep the quicker pace) I'd keep the player count at eight.

Lastly, due to the atrocious AI some of the maps should be looked at - again, exactly as you mentioned. (Two brothers, and maybe one more, can't remember for the life of me, Ring looked bad at first, but it's okay-ish.)

 

Frankly, we could test this in Training Room.

  • Cool 4
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BABBY]
Beta Tester
1,403 posts

Puts in mind some other improvements:

- Bots never use camo or signals in normal co-op, not that it will benefit them much but it'd be nice to look at some more variety.

- It's also unclear if they have any captain skills either. I've heard of scenario bots having stuff like IFHE and fire Prevention; why not introduce this into normal co-op too? Greater chance of facing more skilled captains as you climb tiers. Just remember to make certain skills more likely to appear on certain classes (like secondary stuff on BB, smoke expert on DD).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NED]
Players
4,209 posts
11,709 battles

Actually I like your train of thought OP. I "cheated" some missions lately in coop. Missions I really wanted to get and coop seemed the easiest way. Indeed: AFAIK only ships are mirrored. Not the cammo's/ captain skills etc. I find the coop to be too easy to play. But not to offend the coop fans, which play a vital role in this game altogether I don't think the "solution" is to add more ships (go play operations for that one) but what I'm thinking is a cammo/ captain mirror would be acceptable. Still give the player the signal advantage and not mirror that.

 

Parallel on topic: I can so highly recommend playing a coop just once in a while. It is such a blast to do: you'll get away with stunts which will be mortally punished in Randoms! I had a "hit # secondary mission with any match type" once. So I took my fully secondary specced Tirpitz (Flamu may forgive me (-;) out and ended in the A (? the cap with the "big islands on the left from south POV), parked there and harvested 75% of the mission against Yama's and all other "Geneva forbidden vessels" because the AI didn't comprehend a BB rushing a cap in front of a DD. Man, I did have a blast there! Though the "ctrl left clicking" was a lot of work.... :Smile_playing:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
889 posts
7,325 battles

I think co-op would benefit of some improvements yeah.

 

- It's just too easy. I get that it's intended as a shallow end of the pool, and that's fine. But it's TOO easy, to the point of detracting from the excitement. For the last year, my Win% in co-op is about 98.5% (250 games). If that was ~90%, it'd still be easy, but there'd be that tension of at least having to try.

- The maps are too big for 8 vs 8. Especially in co-op I go for some quick-n-fun instant action. But all to often it's anything but instant.

 

Putting in a few more bots might help both, I agree.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WJDE]
Beta Tester
479 posts
8,321 battles

I'm a bit on the fence about increasing number of bots, but making bot ai better and making it play to win? Oh yes. Like I said here

there's a lot room for improving our future overlords waifus. I'd happily take on bots playing better than unicums.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester, Players
278 posts
5,038 battles
7 hours ago, StringWitch said:

Puts in mind some other improvements:

- Bots never use camo or signals in normal co-op, not that it will benefit them much but it'd be nice to look at some more variety.

- It's also unclear if they have any captain skills either. I've heard of scenario bots having stuff like IFHE and fire Prevention; why not introduce this into normal co-op too? Greater chance of facing more skilled captains as you climb tiers. Just remember to make certain skills more likely to appear on certain classes (like secondary stuff on BB, smoke expert on DD).

I actually like the idea. However, I'd advice only a few bots to have skills/flags/equipement, as opposed to "ALL the bots having all skills and flags", like in scenarios.
It would allow to introduce more challenging bots, might they come with a sligthly different behaviour than the usual "charging in the middle of the player team/using DCP on the first fire/laying smoke and leaving it behind".
Imagine playing in a Tier 5 matchup and the ennemy has a La Galissonnière labelled as "Admiral [somerandomfrenchbotname]", with all the upgrades, CE, IFHE, DE, AR and flags. I'd approve that.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WJDE]
Beta Tester
479 posts
8,321 battles

Why not both?

 

Give bots better captains/upgrades/flags and camos the higher tier you go and include random sealclubbingg (humanclubbing?) fully buffed bot at lower tiers. Imagine :Flamu: or :Yuro: going on a rampage in his humanclubbing v-170 or v-25 and killing all the filthy hooman scrubs. :cap_haloween:

 

#MAKE_COOP_GREAT_AGAIN_AT_LAST

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[MDF]
Beta Tester
152 posts
9,446 battles

I would advise against improving the numbers of bots, as the main co-op player struggled with equal numbers already, resulting in an ai nerf for the bots. If the players would be better there could be the option to spice up the game, but in reality most players stuck in co-op are tomatoes. well most players in random are too.....

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PKTZS]
Weekend Tester
2,409 posts
14,616 battles

In Scenarios bots outnumber the players, and the result is... about 40-50% of the players simply can't cope with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
427 posts
4,209 battles
5 hours ago, orzel286 said:

I'm a bit on the fence about increasing number of bots, but making bot ai better and making it play to win? Oh yes. Like I said here

there's a lot room for improving our future overlords waifus. I'd happily take on bots playing better than unicums.

I think this guy might be on to something!

 

Instead of increasing the nr of bots, let's cut their numbers in half, but make them hyper-unicum with laser accuracy, god-tier evasive skills, modules, captain perks, signals, tactical positioning - the lot. That way, coop could provide a learning experience, instead of teaching bad habits...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
894 posts
11,126 battles

The problem with these suggestions (too big maps for PvE, increase AI level etc.) is, while they indeed have different levels of merit in themselves, they simply require too much work. Building smaller, specific maps for PvE is maybe on the borderline (Although I did not forget about the uproar when WG announced scenarios, and some went full "Boo-hoo, why not work on random/competitive" - like, you know, they did ever since the start of the game?), but I'd guess a lot of people's brains would short circuit if WG would announce that "we put serious resources into AI programming." And frankly, these indignant players would have a point. Bots can already aim good enough (except for the fact that it's too easy to bait them to shoot the belt in 1v1, that one thing should be easily fixable), switch shells effectively enough, torpbeat, sort-of-angle against a single target; but programming the thing that - in my take - differentiates the unicum from the very experienced, situational awareness, reacting to the -, and controlling the game flow, and positioning themselves, all this would be probably nigh impossible to achieve. While I do not know much about programming (regardless of learning it...), I'd guess the bots are as good in their current states as good an algorythm can get with a reasonable amount of work. Improving further would possibly take exponential amount of work.

 

Contrary to that, I see this topic as a question "What can we do to improve PvE with the least possible work?"

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,248 posts
14,326 battles

A problem I find in coop is that if you have one or two good DD players on your team, they can very often kill virtually everything... leaving just scrapes for the BB.

 

With the Kiev in coop, I average 85,375 damage and 2.3 kills per game.  If there is another DD player of equal skill or higher on the team, there just isn't that much left for the other team members on average; and with BBs slow acceleration and speed.... it can be problematic for them. 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WJDE]
Beta Tester
479 posts
8,321 battles
2 hours ago, AkosJaccik said:

 "we put serious resources into AI programming."

Any effort put into improving ai brings us closer to robowaifus, so it's totally worth it.

 

Anyway, how about this: make bot teams bigger, but (to give some less talented humans something to farm as well) make bot skill (and their capt skills/flags/upgrades) vary. Like for example: in low-mid tier game, 12 (or more) bots, 6 have average ai, 4-5 better, 1-2 unicum; mid-high tier: 3 average, 5-6 better, 3-4 uni, tier 10s: 4 better, 8 uni?

This way maps would get more crowded, dds wouldn't be able to dominate as much, with varying bot skill levels it would be fun and engaging :P for most players. Sure, it would require great amount of work, but think about it as wargaming making first steps into world of robowaifus. Hopefully free to play. :cap_haloween:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,344 posts
5,355 battles
6 hours ago, _Kettenbeisser said:

I would advise against improving the numbers of bots, as the main co-op player struggled with equal numbers already, resulting in an ai nerf for the bots. If the players would be better there could be the option to spice up the game, but in reality most players stuck in co-op are tomatoes. well most players in random are too.....

 

As a Co-Op main this statement is absolutely correct - The vast majority of players I see in Co-Op (80%+) just aren't that "good" at the game so Co-Op is a nice relaxing blast for them. It's only that last 20% who are "good" that the Bot increase would benefit but that would be a detriment to the other 80%, spoiling their fun.

 

I mean we've all seen how awful teams can be in Scenarios when the bots are good, have camo and captain skills etc - Imagine Co-Op with 50% Win Rates etc :Smile_amazed:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,772 posts
12,699 battles
3 hours ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

A problem I find in coop is that if you have one or two good DD players on your team, they can very often kill virtually everything... leaving just scrapes for the BB.

 

With the Kiev in coop, I average 85,375 damage and 2.3 kills per game.  If there is another DD player of equal skill or higher on the team, there just isn't that much left for the other team members on average; and with BBs slow acceleration and speed.... it can be problematic for them. 

This is very true!  Even I (as a mediocre player of DDs) can do acceptably well in Coop with a descent destroyer.

 

Also I have been in the same team as your good self and can vouch for your ability to "smite our enemies with an intense smite" :Smile_honoring:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,248 posts
14,326 battles
On 6/4/2018 at 6:39 PM, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

This is very true!  Even I (as a mediocre player of DDs) can do acceptably well in Coop with a descent destroyer.

 

Also I have been in the same team as your good self and can vouch for your ability to "smite our enemies with an intense smite" :Smile_honoring:

Thank you.  :Smile_smile:

 

On 6/4/2018 at 5:23 PM, IanH755 said:

 

As a Co-Op main this statement is absolutely correct - The vast majority of players I see in Co-Op (80%+) just aren't that "good" at the game so Co-Op is a nice relaxing blast for them. It's only that last 20% who are "good" that the Bot increase would benefit but that would be a detriment to the other 80%, spoiling their fun.

If that is true, then I agree, an improvement in bot number or skill might not be a good idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,344 posts
5,355 battles
1 hour ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

If that is true, then I agree, an improvement in bot number or skill might not be a good idea.

 

I'll be honest (and I realise this is bragging, sorry) I may be a little biased with that figure as WarshipsToday (when it works) and WowsNumbers both put me in the top 50 EU players for Co-Op which makes it hard to judge player skill easily.

 

However when I checked some of my last Co-Op games using MxStats I find fairly common things like this where 7 out of 8 players have a PvP Win Rate under <46% (low tier 4-5) -

 

Untitled.jpg.d3839d1d21655a3e3d06ca50b55350ac.jpg

 

or 5 out of 8 here (mid tier 6-8) -

 

Untitled1.jpg.76a7c9069cdbe694126c47193a2a097d.jpg

 

or out 6 of 8 here (high/mid tier 7-9) -

 

Untitled2.jpg.301ae05808103ebc5a753a140e213362.jpg

 

or out 6 of 8 here (high/mid tier 8-10) -

 

Untitled3.jpg.0775b467fee88c086d24521a041977cb.jpg

 

so these players just want to have a fun blast in Co-Op instead of the more "frustrating" PvP mode and the "harder" we make this Easy Mode (so that "good" players have more fun) the majority will suffer.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,248 posts
14,326 battles
37 minutes ago, IanH755 said:

 

I'll be honest (and I realise this is bragging, sorry) I may be a little biased with that figure as WarshipsToday (when it works) and WowsNumbers both put me in the top 50 EU players for Co-Op which makes it hard to judge player skill easily.

 

However when I checked some of my last Co-Op games using MxStats I find fairly common things like this where 7 out of 8 players have a PvP Win Rate under <46% (low tier 4-5) -

 

 

so these players just want to have a fun blast in Co-Op instead of the more "frustrating" PvP mode and the "harder" we make this Easy Mode (so that "good" players have more fun) the majority will suffer.

No bragging is fine.  :Smile_Default:

 

Low tier players with bad PvP stats I can understand, as I had a 43% WR after +700 games.  Higher tier players with thousands of games kind of puzzles me though...  I wonder if the even know they are playing poorly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TOXIC]
[TOXIC]
Players
3,784 posts
10,685 battles
21 hours ago, StringWitch said:

I've been playing co-op more lately and find sometimes it can be a drag while sailing away to kill the enemy CV at the end, and simply by how easy it is to win in general. I started musing about how in scenarios we can fight like 30 enemies, and how it's rather odd that co-op battles are 8v8 instead of the 12v12 we see in randoms. It's also not too uncommon to head somewhere and only encounter one bot you kill quickly and then have nothing else to do because everyone else is too far away (which also leads to having to head to the middle of the map every time, meaning fighting in the same areas on maps if you want a decent number of opponents, which is also boring). Leaving the player side at 8 and buffing the bot side to the full 12 would help make co-ops more engaging and slightly closer to challenging. Maybe, for the sake of new players, the additional bots should be restricted to tier 5+ battles.

There should be some variable based on the number of actual players (8v12 with 8 human players should be a breeze, with just one player and 7 bots things might get hairy since the extremely offensive bot behavior emphasizes numerical advantage of the enemy). But, on principle, an "uneven" coop sounds like a good idea.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WJDE]
Beta Tester
479 posts
8,321 battles
4 hours ago, IanH755 said:

 

Imagine Co-Op with 50% Win Rates etc :Smile_amazed:

I could live witth that. Partially because of the increased rewards (knowing wg attitude towards coop we could also end up with a challenge without any rewards just as well tho) and, well, it's still against bots - no mater how hard it gets it's still half the salt you get from pvp.

 

I also checked some numbers and found out that there are folks with more than 20k battles in coop. WOW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,248 posts
14,326 battles
11 minutes ago, eliastion said:

... (8v12 with 8 human players should be a breeze...

You might be surprised.

11 minutes ago, orzel286 said:

I also checked some numbers and found out that there are folks with more than 20k battles in coop. WOW.

Some players do not play that well, isn't it better they play in coop instead of random?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×