Friendly heads up to WG about the Legendary upgrades for Midway and Hakuryuu

[OVanBruce]

So today I watched Flamuu's latest video about these new WiP upgrades. I already know that they are being tested but nevertheless I was baffled at how such an obvious thing would fly over the heads of WG devs I know that no one of them play main CVs but whatever. Some of you may argue that I'm jumping into the wagon too early and that they'll sort this out but remember, this is WG we are talking about. Their inability to balance the game sometime astonishes me and probably most of you have been too with some of the decisions that have been done throughout the history of the game.

 

First, for those who don't know, these legendary upgrades are exclusive and unique to each tier X ship. Here are the CV upgrades.

 

- Hakuryuu. Enhanced Flight Control.

• 15% Extra health for your fighters
• 5% Extra speed to all of your aircraft

This upgrade is placed on the last one, which is the one in which you can alternatively get the +15% attack aircraft health.

 

- Midway. Reinforced Armor Protection for Attack Air Groups.

• 30% Extra health for your attack aircraft (torpedo bombers and dive bombers)
• -5% Speed to all your aircraft

This upgrade is placed on the last one, which is the one in which you can alternatively get the +15% attack aircraft health.

 

Now the problem should be pretty obvious for anyone who mains CVs. Hakuryuu is getting an straight improvement while Midway is having to exchange a pretty significant stat, the speed of its planes, for a bit more extra health. But let's try crunching the numbers a bit so it becomes more graphical.

 

Aircraft Speed now	Hakuryuu	Midway
Fighters	180 knots	178 knots
Torpedo Bombers	164 knots	136 knots
Dive Bombers	161 knots	156 knots

 

Now let's apply the difference if both CVs took their respective legendary upgrade

 

Aircraft Speed with both upgrades	Hakuryuu	Midway
Fighters	189 knots	169 knots
Torpedo Bombers	172 knots	129 knots
Dive Bombers	169 knots	148 knots

 

As you can see it becomes pointless to use this upgrade on the Midway when the Hakuryuu slots the upgrade. Not only do Midway Fighters become much more vulnerable to strafing and losing air control by Hakuryuu's 3*5 fighter squadron in the air but also they become unable to catch fully loaded Hakuryuu strike planes. A Hakuryuu can decide any kind of engagement as it wants.

 

Things stay a bit less one sided when Midway decides to not slot the upgrade but it's still heavily on favor of Hakuryuu's side

 

Aircraft speed with only Hakuryuu upgrade	Hakuryuu	Midway
Fighters	189 knots	178 knots
Torpedo Bombers	172 knots	136 knots
Dive Bombers	169 knots	156 knots

 

Now let's take a look at the health values of the planes. These values have been modified with the mandatory upgrades that a carrier player almost allways take (yay for variety). They are: Air Groups Modification 2 (+20% to fighter HP, +50% to fighter ammunition) and Air Groups Modification 3 ( +15% to attack aircraft survivability). They also have been modified with the captain skill Aircraft Servicing Expert ( +5% to HP of carrier-based aircraft. -10% to servicing time of carrier-based aircraft) 

 

Aircraft health now	Hakuryuu	Midway
Fighters	2537 hp	2387 hp
Torpedo Bombers	2532 hp	2052 hp
Dive Bombers	2436 hp	2484 hp

 

Now let's compare how they'd look with the new upgrades applied to both carriers. Take into account that in both cases the respective upgrade replaces Air Groups Modification 3 ( +15% to attack aircraft survivability).

 

Aircraft Health with both upgrades	Hakuryuu	Midway
Fighters	2842 hp	2387 hp
Torpedo Bombers	2215 hp	2308 hp
Dive Bombers	2131 hp	2794 hp

 

Now, some of you may argue that it is a fair trade to lose 300 hp on both torpedo and dive bombers in exchange for the increased speed but at carrier gameplay the health of the bombers doesn't really matter outside their exposure to AA barrage. You can see it right now when a Midway can drop their fragile tier VIII torpedo bombers on BBs and other enemy ships if you know when to. This is further compounded by the loss of AA mounts all ships suffer from HE shells. And even so, in this field Hakuryuu's planes will come on top thanks to their superior speed which will enable them to capitalize enemies out of position much more quickly and eficiently than Midway.

 

There are other factors to consider like aircraft travel time and aircraft servicing time.

 

Which brings me back to my original question: Is there any point on sloting this upgrade on Midway? Is there any point on playing Midway once Hakuryuu receives this upgrade? Is there any point in playing Midway over Hakuryuu right now?

 

Spoiler

As an extra a Hakuryuu captain may actually slot this new legendary upgrade and ditch Air Groups Modification 2 (+20% to fighter HP, +50% to fighter ammunition) for Flight Control Modification ( 15% to aircraft servicing time) for a much more agressive style if he/she feels confident on his/her strafing skills.

[Boris_MNE]

tldr?

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

On 3-6-2018 at 12:55 AM, Boris_MNE said:

tldr?

Nope, he actually has a point. 

 

In fact, most of the proposed tier 10 upgrades are pure garbage in my opinion. Around 10% of them is solid, then 20% can be okay if you like that play style and another 70% is pure crap. 

take the minotaur: 

 -30% to smoke duration
+300% to smoke emission time
-10% to the maximum dispersion of enemy shells that fire on your ship

 

This means you'll be an easier target the whole game (enemy gets pin point accuracy on you) while your smokescreens last shorter (not longer, shorter!). In exchange you can get to a hold a bit easier undetected, which you might as well do by getting smokescreen expert- which is a lot more efficient at that effect. 

You'll also be giving up something for this, not sure what, but it already is a pure downgrade even if itd have a seperate slot.

 

On the other hand some ships get insane buffs, such as the hakuryu (+5% speed compared to the other upgrade). 

 

The worcester has a good trade off, which is considerably beneficial i guess: 

Worcester (Slot 5)
+10% to duration of Surveillance Radar
+20% to duration of Hydroacoustic Search
+20% to duration of Defensive AA Fire
-5% to detectability radius

 

While youd sacrifice concealment (-10% detectability, +x% dispersion of shells fired at you). 

 

Then for the Z52, which is already quite good IMO: 

Z-52 (Slot 5)
-5% to detectability radius
-10% to torpedo reload time

Okay, you sacrifice some detectability again, not a lot, but you get extra short torp reload. 

 

So the weird thing here is; the idea is that these upgrades are "no no brainer choices", but some of them are, some of them are straight downgrades, i'd rather have an empty slot than those " upgrades" and some are a bit in between. 

 

This will in effect simply cause some ships to get huge buffs, others have to stick to the old upgrades. So i say no to this whole idea, and the Hakuryu VS Midway is a very clear cut case of why. 

 

Dear devs; stop balancing in such retarded ways please. I like the game currently, but you're trying to make me stop liking it?

[Capra76]

On 02/06/2018 at 11:55 PM, Boris_MNE said:

tldr?

Hak upgrade makes aircraft faster with no downside to it, Midway gets largely meaningless HP buff for strike aircraft but at the cost of speed.

 

Important because Midway fighters become slower than Hak strike planes, thus becoming little more than recon aircraft.

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

41 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Nope, he actually has a point. 

 

In fact, most of the proposed tier 10 upgrades are pure garbage in my opinion. Around 10% of them is solid, then 20% can be okay if you like that play style and another 70% is pure crap. 

take the minotaur: 

 -30% to smoke duration
+300% to smoke emission time
-10% to the maximum dispersion of enemy shells that fire on your ship

 

This means you'll be an easier target the whole game (enemy gets pin point accuracy on you) while your smokescreens last shorter (not longer, shorter!). In exchange you can get to a hold a bit easier undetected, which you might as well do by getting smokescreen expert- which is a lot more efficient at that effect. 

You'll also be giving up something for this, not sure what, but it already is a pure downgrade even if itd have a seperate slot.

 

On the other hand some ships get insane buffs, such as the hakuryu (+5% speed compared to the other upgrade). 

 

The worcester has a good trade off, which is considerably beneficial i guess: 

Worcester (Slot 5)
+10% to duration of Surveillance Radar
+20% to duration of Hydroacoustic Search
+20% to duration of Defensive AA Fire
-5% to detectability radius

 

While youd sacrifice concealment (-10% detectability, +x% dispersion of shells fired at you). 

 

Then for the Z52, which is already quite good IMO: 

Z-52 (Slot 5)
-5% to detectability radius
-10% to torpedo reload time

Okay, you sacrifice some detectability again, not a lot, but you get extra short torp reload. 

 

So the weird thing here is; the idea is that these upgrades are "no no brainer choices", but some of them are, some of them are straight downgrades, i'd rather have an empty slot than those " upgrades" and some are a bit in between. 

 

This will in effect simply cause some ships to get huge buffs, others have to stick to the old upgrades. So i say no to this whole idea, and the Hakuryu VS Midway is a very clear cut case of why. 

 

Dear devs; stop balancing in such retarded ways please. I like the game currently, but you're trying to make me stop liking it?

The Yueyang one is a complete joke. That is if you're doing the smart thing and run radar on her. 

[Capra76]

43 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

This will in effect simply cause some ships to get huge buffs, others have to stick to the old upgrades. So i say no to this whole idea, and the Hakuryu VS Midway is a very clear cut case of why. 

 

Dear devs; stop balancing in such retarded ways please. I like the game currently, but you're trying to make me stop liking it?

 

I guessing that the plan is to hide these upgrades behind some kind of paywall, so by the time they come out they probably will be straight up buffs.

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

2 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

The Yueyang one is a complete joke. That is if you're doing the smart thing and run radar on her. 

I am far from unlocking the yueyang, but i also noticed that that ship is insanely buffed in the proposed tier X upgrades:

 

- Sensibly you'd take radar indeed, since smokes are funny, but radar is more fun for that ship

- The upgrade gives boost to main battery and torpedo reload

- You'd get penalised on smoke screen stats, but if you dont take smoke screens it's a pure buff- which may be needed, but it underlines my point entirely. 

 

- If you'd take smoke screens, the smoke screens go from quite legendary to quite horrible, so wed go towards the extremely poor tradeoffs- comparable to midway. Not as bad as minotaurs, but still. 

 

This entire project should be scrapped, introduce class-specific tier X upgrades instead, with 2 or 3 options for each class. 

[aboomination]

7 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

I am far from unlocking the yueyang, but i also noticed that that ship is insanely buffed in the proposed tier X upgrades:

 

- Sensibly you'd take radar indeed, since smokes are funny, but radar is more fun for that ship

- The upgrade gives boost to main battery and torpedo reload

- You'd get penalised on smoke screen stats, but if you dont take smoke screens it's a pure buff- which may be needed, but it underlines my point entirely. 

 

- If you'd take smoke screens, the smoke screens go from quite legendary to quite horrible, so wed go towards the extremely poor tradeoffs- comparable to midway. Not as bad as minotaurs, but still. 

 

This entire project should be scrapped, introduce class-specific tier X upgrades instead, with 2 or 3 options for each class. 

I think the latest iteration of the YY upgrade both penalizes smoke and radar duration.

 

edit: yeh

 

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

2 minutes ago, aboomination said:

I think the latest iteration of the YY upgrade both penalizes smoke and radar duration.

 

edit: yeh

 

Well okay, then at least that one goes into the 20% of trade-off upgrades. 

 

But i still say scrap this project and go for a specialised tier 10 slot with general trade offs rather than ship-specific, that cant work out well

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

1 minute ago, aboomination said:

I think the latest iteration of the YY upgrade both penalizes smoke and radar duration.

This. Minus 30% duration. So less than 20s even with the radar mod. Otherwise the upgrade would be flat out game breaking. 

[Capra76]

1 hour ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

In fact, most of the proposed tier 10 upgrades are pure garbage in my opinion. Around 10% of them is solid, then 20% can be okay if you like that play style and another 70% is pure crap. 

take the minotaur: 

 -30% to smoke duration
+300% to smoke emission time
-10% to the maximum dispersion of enemy shells that fire on your ship

 

This means you'll be an easier target the whole game (enemy gets pin point accuracy on you) while your smokescreens last shorter (not longer, shorter!). In exchange you can get to a hold a bit easier undetected, which you might as well do by getting smokescreen expert- which is a lot more efficient at that effect. 

 

Look at it a bit more carefully, the stock emission time is 15 seconds, with the upgrade that goes up to 60 seconds, meanwhile the duration goes from 113 to 80 so you get a net gain of 12 seconds.

 

What is perhaps more significant is that at full speed you can lay a 3 or 4 km long screen for your team to hide behind, rather than just one bubble for yourself.

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

3 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Look at it a bit more carefully, the stock emission time is 15 seconds, with the upgrade that goes up to 60 seconds, meanwhile the duration goes from 113 to 80 so you get a net gain of 12 seconds.

 

What is perhaps more significant is that at full speed you can lay a 3 or 4 km long screen for your team to hide behind, rather than just one bubble for yourself.

OOh yeah thats true, anyway the dispersion nerf (effectively 15%) still means you'll die 8x more easily (as if that was necessary) & you lose 10% concealment as well, meaning you can no longer stealth drop, will need smokes more often etc. 

So okay, youd be more of a team player, in exchange you get the right to die more easily yourself. 

[aboomination]

16 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Look at it a bit more carefully, the stock emission time is 15 seconds, with the upgrade that goes up to 60 seconds, meanwhile the duration goes from 113 to 80 so you get a net gain of 12 seconds.

 

What is perhaps more significant is that at full speed you can lay a 3 or 4 km long screen for your team to hide behind, rather than just one bubble for yourself.

Also it's a bit harder to effectively torp a large smoke screen. Well, not with a perma firing Minotaur in it...but this might give her a slight edge over the increasing threat of players blind firing using spotter planes.

Well, not really an edge. But it's certainly not a disadvantage ;)