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Hi,

 

Started IJN BB line all over again. I once went up to Kongo and switched to CV branch never looking back.

 

But now at Kongo. 8 points crappy captain and gaining xp and soon Fuso. But how to proceed?

 

PM, AR and SI atm. Is CE good to have? AA skills? Secondaries? Looking for a universal captain that I can grind as far as I like.

 

Kongo MM is intresting. As T5 you can have T4-5 team donkeys that go very fast one way or other or in the other end get into T7 match. How IJN BBs play? I am used to USN and KM BB lines up to T8 and both of them have pretty different playstyle.

 

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I'd take priority target over preventative maintenance personally. Knowing when they are actually aiming at you is a very useful thing to have I have found personally.

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Never bothered with anything but tank builds on IJN BBs, except for the AA Kii which is a special case

 

First 10 points:

  • PT / PM - whichever you prefer (most people go PT, I like my PM)
  • AR - not so sure. If you like it, why not. I do prefer that EM so you can get your guns on target quicker while still maneuvering
  • SI - good choice, but it comes with a rather big "ONLY IF" - only if you find yourself running out of your consumables ( in your case - heals) often enough. Otherwise that's just waste of points, and BoS (or Vigilance if you prefer that) would serve you better
  • Concealment all the way - it's just a great skill to have letting you get closer and disengage easier. Easily the best one that you can get for 4p

 

The typical full-build that I go for (in order):

(1) PM

(3) EM

(6) SI

(10) CE

(14) FP

(17) BoS

(19) HA / JoaT / AR

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Initially I was going for a secondaries build in IJN-BBs for a captain to go all the way through the tiers up to T10. I watched/read a lot of tutorials and back then this build seemed to make a lot of sense with all the low caliber guns. I got PM, EM and BFT.

At around Fuso my captain had his 10th point and I changed my plans and did not go for AFT, as originally planned. My BB regularly got burned down. One idea was to get CE, hoping to disengage. This is possible for encounters with slower BBs. But the firestarters are cruisers and when they hit you they are already too close for CE to hide you and too fast to shake them and they will have already started the fire(s) before you disappear anyway. The whole mid-section of the ship is too big to miss. So I went with Fire Prevention. With even BBs shooting lots of HE this imo helps a lot.

 

BFT comes in handy against air attacks but if I ever reset this captain I would probably make it more a survival-secondaries-hybrid. So my current idea would be:

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1100000000100000100000001100100019

in the order:

PT - EM - BoS - FP - AFT - MFSA - PM

 

I think the second row survival skills are not very powerful. 5% - 10% faster reload on consumables is not much. It may safe you sometimes and it gives a nice survival package in combination with the other survival skills and premium consumables. But with the sluggish turret traverse, EM is important cause you are going to turn your ship around now and then. And if you want a semi decent secondaries build you need two 4-point skills that just don't leave extra points for 2nd row survival skills.

For a working secondaries build manual fire control is imo important, cause all the shots are in vain, if they don't hit anything. AI aimbot is imo good at close to medium range so accuracy will get more damage than BFT. The points are not enough to take both, BFT and AFT. I think AFT is more important. As long as you don't shorten the distance to DDs by running into them, the extra range will translate to more extra salvos than BFT gives you. As a bonus, the AA range will maybe keep bombers away, cause the CV player assumes he will loose planes, if he gets hit early and looks for easier targets. Also detected DDs will fire their torpedoes early and get out of your secondaries bubble, giving you more time to dodge.

 

The lacks in AA/secondaries could be somewhat compensated with upgrades in higher tiers.

 

So all in all this should be a build that unites the best of a secondaries build with the best of a survival build. Mind you this whole ides is pure theory. I cannot tell from experience, if it's actually gonna work and if so, if it works at every tier and how effective the build is going to be with some skills missing until T10. So, take it with some scepticism. It is certainly a good idea to think about how a build will work in T10 and once you got an Elite commander but you cannot ignore the way to get there. A build should be fun playing all the way and not get you frustrated.

 

Alternatively, CE could come in handy, once it stacks with the concealment module, but getting closer without proper survival skills and secondaries for protection seems risky to me.

 

 

EDIT:

posted the wrong link on shipcomrade. corrected it now, sry for the confusion.

Edited by HMS_Kilinowski
wrong link

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Ok, thanks for these. Darn, I should always ask first and act then. After all these different nation builds are very different. I have pure secondary build in my 14(?) point Bismarck captain. Also faced MFAA Tirp in my Ranger yesterday and seemed like my next 4 points go to that. It wasnt even funny. :cap_wander:

 

Then my NC captain is very different from Bis captain. CE there made helluva difference. PT was useful since broadside is much weaker. 

 

So. 6 points used. PM, AR and SI. Basically right skills but maybe in wrong order. I took turret rotation mod to Kongo and turret traverse seemed ok, dont know how Fuso on beyond operate. At least Yamato has super sluggish turrets. 

 

But this fire prevention - CE dilemma is real. For NC I picked CE and it truely has superb consielment but then again those fires. I have 9 point now so I have some time to consider. At least Fuso isnt that good meter to that since it has so small superstructure and I havent burned them that efficiently.

 

 

 

I compared raw numbers from Amagi - NC - Bismarck. All T8 so consielment module is a must anyway but thats the same for all of them. 17,3km - 15,8km - 16,4km basic detection range. Amagi loses a full km to Bis and whopping 1,5km to NC. NC has something like 11,8km with module and skill and thats superb and very useful with NC playstyle at midrange sniping / bow tanking. 

 

Of course both module and skill effect on % level so basically Amagi also gains most from them. And then again ships like Amagi and Fuso would work out best if you can perhaps keep your broadside a bit open and all guns firing. If you are permaspotted its a very short story. At least in theory. 

 

Its actually intrestinc how IJN BB line develops. You have 4x2 14" set on Kongo, then you go to 6x2 14" set at Fuso, then back to 4x2 set of 16s in Nagato and then again to masses 5x2 16s at Amagi. 

 

So far I havent found a BB line I'd like to push to T10. Bismarck is propably a keeper even while I dont perform that superbly in it. Freddy... I just dont know. NC is also a strong contender as a keeper and not sure what the T9-10 could offer... British line is at T6 and I've quite liked them so far and I expect quite much from KG. 

 

IJN line I have to find out. Precision gunnery always sounds nice and even more if they have flatter arcs than my NC. 

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Vor 4 Stunden, LongJohn_ sagte:

I took turret rotation mod to Kongo and turret traverse seemed ok

I'd never take turret traverse mod in any ship, no matter how slow they turn. You never want less dps by raising your reload time.

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6 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

I'd never take turret traverse mod in any ship, no matter how slow they turn. You never want less dps by raising your reload time.

Though, I took the -traverse on Musashi and erh, 9x460mm shells every 24 seconds or so is great, but, if the enemy gets within 12km it can get difficult to traverse with them :fish_boom:

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I just saw I posted the wrong link in my Shipcomrade-Skill tree. I corrected it. Sorry for the possible confusion.

 

32 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

I'd never take turret traverse mod in any ship, no matter how slow they turn. You never want less dps by raising your reload time.

I was hesitant at first, too. It seems counterintuitive to do so. I reversed my point of view when I started gunboat tactics on DDs and US-cruisers. You have to navigate a lot and very often you find your guns reloaded and waiting to take the shot but you cannot get your guns on target. So one way or another you don't get the dps on paper. Now, you are not exactly kiting in a BB but still you gotta WASD a little to not fall prey to torps, even more now with the deepwaters. With the slow turret traverse I personally tend to get lazy with evasive action. You think you only got to straight for a few more seconds for your next shot and you already got your perfect aim on a cruiser and that's when the torpedo warning comes. This could be my individual flaw, but I think it is easier to maneuver your ship and still keep your guns on target, doing more dpm even with slower reload.

 

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2 hours ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

I'd never take turret traverse mod in any ship, no matter how slow they turn. You never want less dps by raising your reload time.

 

This is really a false economy. Switching to an unsuspecting target is one of the best ways to spike your damage. Aside from that, guess it depends on individual ship and playstyle but not being able to get and keep guns on target e.g. at short range or while turning can hurt you DPM far more than the 5% that module does. In a BB, you lose 25% of your HP (not uncommon) and AR completely mitigates that anyway.

 

Of course even so, most ships don't need it, but there are definitely a few I can think of right off the top of my head I would take that module without thinking twice. However, Kongo is not one of those.

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This turret traverse thingy is actually intresting twist on eqch others playstyle. If you pick turret traverse module you gain faster turret traverse but give up accuracy (aiming systems mod). This would (in theory) support fighting from closer range. You need faster turrets and less accuracy is also ok. And then other way around. Slower turrets react slower so you need to be a dash further away and need the accuracy. 

 

I actually checked out most IJN ships turret traverse times and compared them to reference which is Bismarck (fast turrets, no need for either mod or captain skill). Bis is 36s. Kongo and Fuso have sluggish ~55s but it drops to Nagato around 47s and is at Amagi and Izumo around 40s which are propably ok(ish) without mod or skill. After that, at Yamato, it finally drops to 72s which is abysmal. 

 

This is actually useful. Now when I messed up my first 2 point skill to AR if I can handle Fuso without EM and module, which can be something, I might not need it until T10.

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1 minute ago, LongJohn_ said:

This is actually useful. Now when I messed up my first 2 point skill to AR if I can handle Fuso without EM and module, which can be something, I might not need it until T10.

 

That's what I'd recommend to be honest. I personally take AR over EM on all BBs, the only exceptions being the pre-buff Warspite and the Yamato. To offer up a counter opinion to a lot of those in the thread already, I'd say it's entirely manageable to get away without EM until you hit the Yam when you will very much need it. For your fourth skill I'd recommend CE, you definitely want FP as well but it's less essential outside of high tiers. As truly awful as the stealth of the Fuso coming up is, CE is still better to have than not!

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Well this got me thinking. 

 

My experience from KM and USN BBs have given two different builds. With KM turret traverse, turtleback and secondaries (with wonky main battery dispersion...) guides this line to brawling. Just as well USN attributes guide them go midrange bowtanking and AA builds. 

 

In theory both of these are out from IJN line. Armor scheme doesnt support brawling and AA is not good enough to fool around with AA build. Basically you can speck higher tier ships to secondary builds quite effectively but their armor scheme doest support close range fighting. Its too easy to just drive to Yamato flank and demolish it from broadside. 

 

So bow tanking AA and brawling setups are out the window. What else can you specialize? Is there other options than already mentioned tanking? BoS, FP...

 

Also the right order between skills. Of course you have to pick something while reaching those most useful 4 point skills but if I think about it SI at T5 is propably overkill. Will the battles or the ship itself survive as long that you really need that extra heal?

 

So basically the same thing as that EM. You need it but it can be those last skills before hitting T10. 

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T9 and T10 IJN can mid range bowtank, or at least that's what most people think they're supposed to do. Think is, Amagi is a kiting ship. All are best at medium range, not too close.

 

I would second above advice for full tank builds. Fire Prevention, Basics of Survivability, High Alert, Jack of all Trades, take your pick and mix and match those. Concealment is nice to have but half the time you're spotted anyway. Make the enemy want to shoot you, but make it so you can live through their fire. I run HA+JoaT on Amagi and my cooldowns are super short, heal up, repair fires, rinse repeat, kite and live forever while distracting lots of enemies.

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AA is actually one minor concern. I do play CVs a lot and in most cases IJN BBs are seen as nice snack for aircraft. This is one thing I like about my USN line. Normally CVs leave my NC alone and when you check out AA ratings its understandable. I avoid them in my CVs as well. 

 

Guess there is not that much you can do? Except use tankbuild to handle whats coming and maybe division up with CV or AA cruiser. 

 

Shame I didnt try out those high tier ships when they were offered for a while. There were Kurfurst and Yamatos. I would have known what to expect and is the top tier ship worth the effort.  

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OT

 

Its actually funny how you start grinding some line and have wild expectations to different ships. For example I had very high hopes to NC after I liked Colorado so much but its still kind of mediocre in my hands. Same with Gadjah Mada. Very high hopes after all praises in youtube and then its a complete pancake after Fushun. Bismarck has been pretty much what I expected. 

 

/OT

 

IJN BBs? I do have high(ish) hopes for Fuso and I'm pretty intrested on Yamato. Maybe the only T10 since Midway that I hope to go all the way. Dont know why though...

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2 hours ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

AA is actually one minor concern. I do play CVs a lot and in most cases IJN BBs are seen as nice snack for aircraft.

 

At high tier the CV population is rock bottom. Either you won't see one at all, or you'll meet one so good no skill you take or anything you do will save you. So don't bother with AA.

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usualy all IJN BB got good torp protection, and well their AA is crap anyways so you can ignore that, only ship i had Aft and Bft was nagato and Amagi for trolling with longrange secoundary build for a while before changing it back to surival build

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I find the CE perk on ships that have the worst concealment for their type ( in this case JPN BB’s) somehow difficult to defend spending points at. Even if in absolute terms you gain the most advantage you always remain the worst of the pack. While UK, ITA and USA (and SOV/RUS) BB’s can gain concealment that rival cruiser level concealment the rest can only advance towards either “ meh” or “less bad” levels of concealment. 

 

The JPN BB’s have the worst kind of visibility (Izumo buff is welcomed though) and CE is only going to get them on par with other BB’s that did not invest into the CE perk. Fuso fulltime CE build is not going to get below the 15(16?) KM visibility. Nagato, Mutso, Ashitake idem. Only from Amagi on (due to module) you can get into the 13’s. So you will get the benefit that between salvo’s you have some unspotted time (if no enemy dd’s are present).

 

So in my opinion an expensive 4 points. Maybe better of with Fire prevention or AFT to boost you mediocre AA. Although boosting AA is kind of the same as CE, boosting a bad stat into a mediocre one.

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4 minutes ago, Jvd2000 said:

 

The JPN BB’s have the worst kind of visibility (Izumo buff is welcomed though) and CE is only going to get them on par with other BB’s that did not invest into the CE perk. Fuso fulltime CE build is not going to get below the 15(16?) KM visibility. Nagato, Mutso, Ashitake idem. Only from Amagi on (due to module) you can get into the 13’s. So you will get the benefit that between salvo’s you have some unspotted time (if no enemy dd’s are present).

Fuso with CE goes from "spotted from spawn to spawn" to "spotted when you are in a slightly better position". It might not feel that good but the difference is actually pretty big, and while you are not going to disengage much it is still better.

The rest of the IJN BB's are not at the top for stealth but still not bad.

 

FP and CE are the goto skills for any BB (apart from secondary builds), as you get stealth to disengage and getting into position and fire resistance for tanking. So for the Yamato CE and FP are almost mandatory since no other build improves the playstyle of the Yamato like tankiness and stealth.

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1 hour ago, Jvd2000 said:

I find the CE perk on ships that have the worst concealment for their type ( in this case JPN BB’s) somehow difficult to defend spending points at.

And yet CE easily is the best 4 point skill for any BB.

 

You can stealth up easier, you can escape dodgy situations. You can get closer which lets you to be more accurate. And it lets you to dictate the fight against others (mainly BBs) who don't run concealment (you always see them, they don't see you = you shoot when it fits you, they have to follow up with the chance you gave them. 100% in your favor) or you deny this ability to dictate the fight by getting your concealment closer to them making the difference uncomfortably small and too hard to use to bother with.

 

Feel free to skip it if you don't like it, but don't be surprised when someone with CE can always outplay you

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3 hours ago, Jvd2000 said:

I find the CE perk on ships that have the worst concealment for their type ( in this case JPN BB’s) somehow difficult to defend spending points at. Even if in absolute terms you gain the most advantage you always remain the worst of the pack. While UK, ITA and USA (and SOV/RUS) BB’s can gain concealment that rival cruiser level concealment the rest can only advance towards either “ meh” or “less bad” levels of concealment. 

 

The JPN BB’s have the worst kind of visibility (Izumo buff is welcomed though) and CE is only going to get them on par with other BB’s that did not invest into the CE perk. Fuso fulltime CE build is not going to get below the 15(16?) KM visibility. Nagato, Mutso, Ashitake idem. Only from Amagi on (due to module) you can get into the 13’s. So you will get the benefit that between salvo’s you have some unspotted time (if no enemy dd’s are present).

 

So in my opinion an expensive 4 points. Maybe better of with Fire prevention or AFT to boost you mediocre AA. Although boosting AA is kind of the same as CE, boosting a bad stat into a mediocre one.

There's two IJN ships where I don't run CE on and that's Myogi and Kii. Myogi because it is a T4, 6 points already are more than I expect from most folks starting out there and frankly, the range on most ships it sees is still lower than concealment with CE, so a Myogi with CE isn't going to get any more comfort from it than withithout, also because Myogi is fast enough to dictate the range most of the time.

 

Kii meanwhile is not CE specced, because I got a special captain for it with AA skills and frankly, the difference is noticeable. In my Amagi, running off if things get too heated and I need to fall off detection is way easier, while Kii stays spotted and if it doesn't react to developments early enough, it just dies. Also, Yamato shells from across the map because you are one of the first spotted targets are nasty.

 

So, yes, you won't ever rival cruisers, but for IJN BB, CE is a defensive skill, while for stealthy BBs, it is defensive and offensive. Nevertheless, it is valuable to have and most IJN ships have AA so bad, you rather want to look for other AA ships near you if a CV is around. It also does not compete with FP, most often you get both by 14 points (or 16 if you get AR first).

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19 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

And yet CE easily is the best 4 point skill for any BB.

Not sure about Fuso. I chose FP over CE.

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I ran Amagi with a CE build initially (hilarious surprise deletions even without best at tier stealth) but switched to a tank build without CE due to lack of skill points. A ship like that wants to attract attention and kite, plus the guns are better than anything else at mid-long range so I found maxed stealth unnecessary in that style.

 

But I would take CE eventually, and I have on Izumo. It's worth plugging a weakness even if the result is not as good as others, and there are enough points in a build to go CE and tank skills since IJN BBs are not points hungry (no point investing in secondaries or AA).

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CE is nice on every ship bar none.

I played a long time Yamato without CE, thought 15km was a good enough range, til I tried adding it and discovered 13.5 was actually far better. Being able to simply stop being spotted and use your heal when things get harsh is very useful. Being able to switch your targets unnoticed and make people doubting which ship is actually aiming at them is useful too.

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