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Tachibana - Oh my...

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So, wanted to talk about this ship a bit and not necro some thread from the ages past. Got this from the missions, decided to have a go with it.

 

Seems basically tier for tier a better sealclubber than the Vampire. And that ship already seemed kind of silly. Maybe some tech tree counterparts beat it if you get a dedicated captain, but this ship is basically:

  • Do some easy missions
  • Get Tachibana
  • Put duck captain on it
  • Hit Battle
  • ...
  • Profit!

If we assume that pretty much all opposition DDs have only PM and LS (which is generous actually at T2), you basically get a ship that has joint worst hp with V-25/Longjiang (7.7k with SE), can stealth torp every 22 seconds (with that reload the raw damage is a non-issue almost, just get a flooding to abuse the fire chance), has the highest HE dpm of all DDs at its tier with BFT (who uses AP anyway?) and the IFHE skill allows to actually pen 13 mm BB superstructure. 4.7 km concealment also is immense.

 

Thanks for the ship, but did anyone think about the seals? You don't even need to go to the effort of getting a proper captain if you have the appropriate IJN DD already.

 

 

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  • you have a 300m torp window, good luck
  • the guns are tiny
  • Umikaze is a better DD sealclubber at that Tier

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2 hours ago, ColonelPete said:
  • you have a 300m torp window, good luck
  • the guns are tiny
  • Umikaze is a better DD sealclubber at that Tier
  • It's workable, in my experience.
  • The guns are tiny, but who cares? Even without BFT you out-dpm all other DDs at T2. The only restrictions are 8 km range (non-issue vs DDs) and the bad penetration value. But if you put an Akizuki captain on it, you have enough penetration to never be hopeless.
  • Umikaze is easier for torp runs and has more hp, but can't compete as a gunboat/hybrid.

Lastly, Umikaze requires effort to get a captain. Tachibana can just work with whatever high-tier IJN DD captain you have (preferably Akizuki).

 

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  • it is, but it is not good
  • you will not out-fight any cruiser and if you use her as a gunboat, that will be a problem
  • she does not need to

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15 minutes ago, Riselotte said:
  • It's workable, in my experience.
  • The guns are tiny, but who cares? Even without BFT you out-dpm all other DDs at T2. The only restrictions are 8 km range (non-issue vs DDs) and the bad penetration value. But if you put an Akizuki captain on it, you have enough penetration to never be hopeless.
  • Umikaze is easier for torp runs and has more hp, but can't compete as a gunboat/hybrid.

Lastly, Umikaze requires effort to get a captain. Tachibana can just work with whatever high-tier IJN DD captain you have (preferably Akizuki).

 

Out dpm on paper you mean. The small caliber of those guns means the actual damage output is a lot less.

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I find that Tachibana can outshoot some cruisers. Sure, the guns are tiny, but many ships have no armour. You'll get citadel hits even with HE. The ship is also so tiny that shells will miss you quite a lot. It's a hilarious brawler.

 

Umikaze on the other hand actually has armour, to the point where you can bounce battleship shells. That's always hilarious. And the ship works far better at T3-T5 anyway, due to how her stealth comes to much better use there. You also have a health pool comparable to those tiers. If you want to brawl, pick the first hull and use a secondary build. :cap_rambo:

 

Both also have hilariously short torpedo reload.

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20 minutes ago, lafeel said:

Out dpm on paper you mean. The small caliber of those guns means the actual damage output is a lot less.

The HE maximum per shell is 1,300, which is lower than most of the other T2 DDs, which typically sit around 1,500. Unless the shell shatters, they all will do pen damage for 1/3 for all DDs. 76 mm HE will pen the one-digit armour values of all T2 DDs and some cruisers and with IFHE pens any 13 mm armour plating. So, penetration from shell caliber is a non-issue too. RoF of a Tachibana is 12 shots per minute per gun, with 4 guns effective in a broadside, with the only DDs that beat the reload only having 3 guns and the rest having longer reload. If we count effective guns, RoF and HE shell damage, we get the following DPM values:

 

Sampson: 51,420

Umikaze: 30,600

V-25/Longjiang: 54,000

Storozhevoi: 54,000

Tachibana: 62,400

 

The shell ballistics are also very manageable. So, care to explain where you see the loss of effective damage to make this only "on paper"?

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Just now, Riselotte said:

The HE maximum per shell is 1,300, which is lower than most of the other T2 DDs, which typically sit around 1,500. Unless the shell shatters, they all will do pen damage for 1/3 for all DDs. 76 mm HE will pen the one-digit armour values of all T2 DDs and some cruisers and with IFHE pens any 13 mm armour plating. So, penetration from shell caliber is a non-issue too. RoF of a Tachibana is 12 shots per minute per gun, with 4 guns effective in a broadside, with the only DDs that beat the reload only having 3 guns and the rest having longer reload. If we count effective guns, RoF and HE shell damage, we get the following DPM values:

 

Sampson: 51,420

Umikaze: 30,600

V-25/Longjiang: 54,000

Storozhevoi: 54,000

Tachibana: 62,400

 

The shell ballistics are also very manageable. So, care to explain where you see the loss of effective damage to make this only "on paper"?

Simple, really. These puny 76mm pop guns will consistently fail to deal their full damage because they don't have enough penetrative power to penetrate even the thin armor of a tier 2 before exploding, and doing less than their full amount, or even (it happens, trust me) no damage what so ever.

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7 minutes ago, lafeel said:

Simple, really. These puny 76mm pop guns will consistently fail to deal their full damage because they don't have enough penetrative power to penetrate even the thin armor of a tier 2 before exploding, and doing less than their full amount, or even (it happens, trust me) no damage what so ever.

Only that they actually have the armour penetration, because at T2, hardly anyone has armour. This isn't T8 where every DD is coated in 19 mm hull armour. And if you really have issues, as said, IFHE. Also allows to hit BB superstructure for damage.

 

Not to mention, HE only can pen for 1/3, citadel for full or shatter for no damage. There is no "HE shell fails to pen and does small damage". This isn't WoT.

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1 minute ago, Riselotte said:

Only that they actually have the armour penetration, because at T2, hardly anyone has armour. This isn't T8 where every DD is coated in 19 mm hull armour. And if you really have issues, as said, IFHE. Also allows to hit BB superstructure for damage.

 

Not to mention, HE only can pen for 1/3, citadel for full or shatter for no damage. There is no "HE shell fails to pen and does small damage". This isn't WoT.

IFHE on a tier 2? 

 

Know what, I am not even going to grace that with a reply, but for the first time ever you just made me wish I had that gif of "oh you were serious? I'm going to laugh harder!"

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14 minutes ago, lafeel said:

IFHE on a tier 2? 

 

Know what, I am not even going to grace that with a reply, but for the first time ever you just made me wish I had that gif of "oh you were serious? I'm going to laugh harder!"

I mean, it's a premium IJN boat. I own a Harekaze that needs IFHE, others own Akizukis. Transferring the captain comes at no cost whatsoever but the three or so clicks. No grind required (except for getting the Akizuki captain to high enough level, but that's absolutely worth it for a good T8 DD). Yes, I'm serious.

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I have (the non Lima version) Tachibana for quite a while now. And indeed an Akizuki build helps and makes her quite fun. In the past there was some weird issue with her pen value (for AP if I recall correctly) that made her interesting at that time. For me the tiers 2+3 are sort of a vacation to just hop in and join the (compared to high tier ranges) close quarter mayhem and for that she actually well suited. I don't expect to completely dominate a battle but played as a very low tier Akizuki she does deliver.

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2 hours ago, Z_OnkelE said:

For me the tiers 2+3 are sort of a vacation to just hop in and join the (compared to high tier ranges) close quarter mayhem and for that she actually well suited. I don't expect to completely dominate a battle but played as a very low tier Akizuki she does deliver.

Well, I typically drop down there only at the end of an evening session, when I had enough of higher tiers and just want to play some silly boat. Then it's this or the Varyag. Mostly noticed Tachibana's characteristics and IFHE benefits, because the Harekaze/Akizuki captain is the highest level captain I have for IJN DDs and so I looked into what 76 mm guns could gain from IFHE.

 

It certainly seems to be more than my Varyag gains from IFHE on Shchors captain.

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22 minutes ago, Ysterpyp said:

Out DPM all t2 dd's?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 Smith :Smile_hiding:

 

Good catch:

Smith: 75,416

 

It's the only rival to the Tachibana, though it has the same crappy gun caliber.

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3 hours ago, Riselotte said:

It's the only rival to the Tachibana, though it has the same crappy gun caliber.

Also noteworthy: Smith's shells have significantly worse ballistic properties that are a bit impractical even at 6 km already. This may lead to a smaller effective DPM because of a potentially worse accuracy.

 

I looked up how that affected my accuracy due to possibly more manoeuvres by my target while the shells are in the air in comparison between Smith and Tachibana. It turned out I score almost the same amount of hits per shots fired for both ships. Therefore Smith's higher DPM (in this case for me personally at least) results in a real DPM advantage.

 

But I have to admit: to concern myself with damage optimisation on either Smith or Tachibana is a bit too much tryhard even for my case :Smile-_tongue::Smile_teethhappy:  I approve both of them as fun ships for everyone who does not despise low tier battles.

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16 minutes ago, Z_OnkelE said:

Also noteworthy: Smith's shells have significantly worse ballistic properties that are a bit impractical even at 6 km already. This may lead to a smaller effective DPM because of a potentially worse accuracy.

 

I looked up how that affected my accuracy due to possibly more manoeuvres by my target while the shells are in the air in comparison between Smith and Tachibana. It turned out I score almost the same amount of hits per shots fired for both ships. Therefore Smith's higher DPM (in this case for me personally at least) results in a real DPM advantage.

 

But I have to admit: to concern myself with damage optimisation on either Smith or Tachibana is a bit too much tryhard even for my case :Smile-_tongue::Smile_teethhappy:  I approve both of them as fun ships for everyone who does not despise low tier battles.

Well, there's only so many things you can do to optimise damage in Tachibana/Smith guns:

  • BFT (if you have a high-level DD captain, they'll likely have that skill anyway, IJN might have it for Akizuki)
  • DE (this is the one most questionable to be on any high tier DD captain, as most spec other skills, like SE, SI for USN, TAE for IJN and skills like AFT/IFHE taking up even more points)
  • IFHE (USN usually not, Akizuki very likely to carry it already)
  • AR (one of the best skills to have on any ship, so, likely to be present)
  • learning how to aim (pretty good thing to learn in general)

Due to point restrictions, you won't cover them all, but by the point someone has a Benson/Fletcher or an Akizuki, they could cover most of these already and you can't optimise past that. Well, ok, you could put Yamamoto/Halsey on the ship (and Yamamoto on Akizuki is not exactly an uncommon use of Yamamoto), but then you really just want to bully the lower tier. But yeah, as long as you cam sufdficiently far up the respective DD lines, having a captain with the necessary skills (especially for IJN with Akizuki) is almost a given and the effort to optimise is near nil.

 

Which kind of is one of the points I wanted to raise in the opening post - for minimal effort, you get a pretty solid sealclubber out of this thing. Compared to other ships like silver ships or Vampire, that need special captains and at least need retraining.

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22 hours ago, Z_OnkelE said:

Also noteworthy: Smith's shells have significantly worse ballistic properties that are a bit impractical even at 6 km already. This may lead to a smaller effective DPM because of a potentially worse accuracy.

 

this is true , the tachi has a much easier time to hit v-25 than the smith does, but get close its a monster with its dpm. 

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Try the AP boys, you get alpha ricochet angles! (Aka none) Wipe out those Frenchie crusiers very quickly.

HE is beta IJN napalm too, 1300 alpha and 6% fire chance on rapid fire pop guns? Holy.... I remember when you could burn down BBs from stealth.

 

Tachi or Vamp as best sealclubber? Hmm tough one.

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On 30/05/2018 at 8:44 AM, Riselotte said:

Good catch:

Smith: 75,416

 

It's the only rival to the Tachibana, though it has the same crappy gun caliber.

Gun caliber? Smith got 450mm torpedo cannons with 11s reload, no need for guns. Skill TAE & AR > ???? > PROFIT

 

 

3 hours ago, creamgravy said:

Try the AP boys, you get alpha ricochet angles! (Aka none) Wipe out those Frenchie crusiers very quickly.

I thought that was fixed as a bug..? It looks hella weird, like the shells are sticky grenades.

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3 hours ago, creamgravy said:

Try the AP boys, you get alpha ricochet angles! (Aka none) Wipe out those Frenchie crusiers very quickly.

HE is beta IJN napalm too, 1300 alpha and 6% fire chance on rapid fire pop guns? Holy.... I remember when you could burn down BBs from stealth.

 

Tachi or Vamp as best sealclubber? Hmm tough one.

Unless you pen citadels, the AP actually is garbage, because it has less damage than HE.

 

I'd say Tachibana, because of the better torpedo power.

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14 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Unless you pen citadels, the AP actually is garbage, because it has less damage than HE.

 

I'd say Tachibana, because of the better torpedo power.

Don't hesitate to use the AP when your HE shells shatter.

It's really good for... BBs already on fire, Umikaze seal clubbers (HE shells shatter on large parts of the ship) and yolo tier 3 cruisers you can citadel regardless of angle.

 

NO3mXvo.jpg

 

 

Vampire has great AP too. 35mm pen at 10km when Shenyang and Izy only have 26-29mm. :cap_like:

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7 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

Don't hesitate to use the AP when your HE shells shatter.

It's really good for... BBs already on fire, Umikaze seal clubbers (HE shells shatter on large parts of the ship) and yolo tier 3 cruisers you can citadel regardless of angle.

 

NO3mXvo.jpg

 

 

Vampire has great AP too. 35mm pen at 10km when Shenyang and Izy only have 26-29mm. :cap_like:

Yeah, I mean, if you get shatters go for AP, if it pens. Given I have IFHE on the captain, I usually get few shatters though.

 

Issue at 10 km, imo, is less pen. It's the shell arcs. At 4 km or so, you can pretty comfortably citadel cruisers though with a rather flat trajectory.

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