Jump to content
TeaAndTorps

How to perform (more) consistently in DDs?

25 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

[PUPSI]
Players
801 posts
2,665 battles

Hi everyone. I've been thinking quite a bit about how to improve my DD gameplay recently. Over the last 2 or 3 months I've started playing my Nicholas again in randoms. When I first got it back in October or November, I had an absolutely disastrous run which really showed me it was time to seriously l2p (going back to lower tiers and watching all the guides, commentaries etc. I could get my hands on).

 

Things are going better overall now, but I've noticed that my performance is still way more inconsistent in DDs than in CAs or BBs. I'll do really well in maybe about 1/3 of my games, and then the others range between 'meh' and 'full potato'. When I do well DDs are probably my favourite class to play, but it is frustrating being so inconsistent in them. It still gives decent enough recent stats overall but that's not really the point and it would be nice to reduce the inconsistency.

 

I was wondering if there are other DD players out there who have found the same thing in the past, what they reckoned the problem was and what they did to overcome it? Any ideas would be very helpful! If it helps, I mostly play USN DDs (And like the PAs so far, though my experience is limited); I don't really enjoy IJN torp boats at all! I think part of it might come down to not being overly aggressive, so it'd be good to hear strategies for striking the balance between not being suicidally aggressive and not being so cautious that you're not contributing with spotting, capping and damage. Paying more attention to it is having positive results, but it's particularly hard to strike that balance when your team decides to camp in their spawn, I find...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,204 posts
4,794 battles

T5 is a bit of a jump for all ship types, as the first time you will experience +2 MM, so you will find yourself up against opponents not just with ships two tiers higher, but also with experience of grinding those same two tiers. Ultimately, destroyers have an easier time of it, due to their stealth-focused gameplay.

 

Now, I had trouble with Nicholas, too. The thing is she is a good ship, but you need to upgrade the guns in order to make her so. The upgrade literally doubles your firepower and makes you a destroyer hunter. By comparison, Farragut will feel like a little bit of a downgrade. The line starts picking up again around Mahan, when you unlock torpedoes that exceed your detection range, allowing you to ninja torp like the Japanese.

 

On the subject of consistency...Yeah, torp boats have a problem with that. The thing is, as much as people say that launching torp walls takes no skill, you actually need to know what you're doing in order to make the damage stick. We've all had that frustrating moment of a battleship showing perfect broadside to your torpedo spread, only to turn away half a second after you used your last torpedo launcher, wasting all of your effort and forcing you to wait another minute to three just to have another try. If you want consistency you have to go for the russian DDs, they don't even care that they have torpedoes - just speed along singing 'Rasputin' and firing your guns ad nauseum until the enemy is dead.

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PUPSI]
Players
801 posts
2,665 battles
1 hour ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

Now, I had trouble with Nicholas, too. The thing is she is a good ship, but you need to upgrade the guns in order to make her so. The upgrade literally doubles your firepower and makes you a destroyer hunter. By comparison, Farragut will feel like a little bit of a downgrade. The line starts picking up again around Mahan, when you unlock torpedoes that exceed your detection range, allowing you to ninja torp like the Japanese.

Thanks for your reply! Yes, I've heard... We'll, mixed reviews of the Farragut. I played it on the PTS the other day actually, and funnily enough quite liked it, but I guess we'll see... Looking forward to Mahan and upwards, in time, though. But I'll not be getting the Farragut until I feel like I've got gud in the Nicholas. The Russians are looking like the best candidates for my next 'DD' line, depending on what new lines appear.

 

Nice to have confirmation that playing the Nicholas in an anti-DD role is correct. Having thought about my Nicholas gameplay more yday, I wonder if you have any tips on fulfilling that role if you're getting... erm... sub-optimal support from your team? I'm not saying 'I'm perfect, my teams suck' – clearly that's not true –, but working on not playing too aggressively and getting killed is much easier with team support. OTOH, I can't take on a Minekaze, 3 CLs and a BB if the rest of my team on that flank is camping hard. I really don't know how to deal with that... Do you abandon that flank, (the battle I'm thinking of was on Strait, which makes that harder), or smoke up and blaze away at the targets who are blazing away at your spawn-campers (and thus leave said Minekaze unspotted and free to cap), or something else I haven't thought of?

 

Sorry, if I'd thought harder about what my question was before posting I'd have called the topic 'How to cope with lack of support in hybrid DDs?' or similar :Smile_hiding:

 

And again, I know team support's not the major thing holding me back – that's my own gameplay, and I want to git gud at gunboat/hybrid DDs. But I figure having some ideas for how to deal with that kind of situation is also an important part of gitting gud! :fish_book:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[UNICS]
Players
1,410 posts
21,648 battles

By Consistency , do you mean damage , kills?

 

If damage , because that is not what dd's are about they are about  the objective and the stats and wtr on sites do little to reflect that gameplay.

 

You might do 10k dmg in one game and the next a 100k in a dd' but that 10k is better than the 100k if you killed an important dd target and capped the objective , as to torping a bb but you lose a cap..

 

W/R is what you should be looking at

 

  • Cool 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,204 posts
4,794 battles

Tips for DD hunting...let's see...

I guess firstly, in terms of captain skills you'll probably want Priority Target and Radio Location/Radio Position Finding (the latter being 4 points, so do not take it before Concealment Expert).

You'd be surprised how useful PT is over Preventative Maintenance in a DD. There are times you can be spotted, but no-one is targeting you, which saves you from wasting time trying to get undetected again. Furthermore, if you're actively knife-fighting with another DD, it helps to know if it's only that DD targeting you. If you see the number start to hit 3-4 or more, it's time to bug out and smoke up!

As much as it might be tempting, don't bother with gunrange upgrades. As of a patch last year your maximum gun range is also your detection range when firing with your guns, thus if you do open up with your guns in a destroyer, you want to be able to reduce the range at which you are detected after you've finished firing quickly.

As for working with your team...It can be difficult, but try to keep an eye on the minimap and 'go with the flow'. If you're heading towards a cap and/or contesting it, think more about how you're going to get out if you get spotted - try to maneouvre to get your bow pointing outwards. If you're located via RPF (it can happen at low-mid tiers, given premium destroyers or cruisers), don't stay still in the cap - you're inviting a torpedo spread aimed at your position. This advice also goes for smoking up, if you're planning to smoke up to start using your guns consider moving forwards at 1/4 speed until your smoke generator stops, then start reversing until you reach the end (or beginning) of your smoke then start moving forwards at 1/4 speed again. Being a moving target in your smoke makes you much harder to hit both with gunfire and with torpedoes.

OH! Speaking of smoke, don't bother smoking up as soon as you enter a cap, you are not only blinding yourself (so you aren't spotting any enemies) but you are also broadcasting your general position to the enemy team, so they know where to launch their torpedoes.

Try to think about using your smoke to provide cover for ally cruisers. If you make a smoke trail leading into the cap, ally cruisers will be more willing to get in close and support your cap - this also creates a decoy smoke that will attract the torpedo fire of enemy destroyers, but don't worry about the cruiser sitting in your smoke, most have Hydroacoustic Search and thus have at least some form of self-defence against said torpedoes.

Another tip I can give is to learn how to kite. This is when you turn your ship bow-away from the enemy and continue shooting while making periodical left and right course adjustments. This makes you a narrow and agile target and thus difficult to score decent hits on. By using this trick I was able to reduce an enemy Pensacola(!) from 1/3 health to zero just using my Sims' guns while I was on roughly 1/4 health. Although a loss, I got complemented by both teams for humiliating the Pepsicola. Note: Kiting works best when shooting larger targets at distance, when fighting DDs you want to keep yourself close so your shell arcs don't cause problems at range.

 

I suppose most of my advice is just general DD advice and not very well tailored.

The main thing I would suggest is try not to get too worried about scoring kills or damage, as @Ysterpyp said above: your role in a DD is more about spotting and capping than scoring raw damage or kills.

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PUPSI]
Players
801 posts
2,665 battles
1 hour ago, Ysterpyp said:

By Consistency , do you mean damage , kills?

 

If damage , because that is not what dd's are about they are about  the objective and the stats and wtr on sites do little to reflect that gameplay.

 

You might do 10k dmg in one game and the next a 100k in a dd' but that 10k is better than the 100k if you killed an important dd target and capped the objective , as to torping a bb but you lose a cap..

 

W/R is what you should be looking at

 

I absolutely mean WR, as the nearest stat we have for being consistently useful to the team and playing the objective well. The frustrating inconsistency comes with the times I die early without getting any cap or even managing to trade with an enemy DD. It kinda sucks feeling like I haven't carried my weight, even in a victory.

 

Wow, thanks for all the tips @Captain_LOZFFVII! Those are some really useful ideas about smoke usage in cap contesting, which I'll try to apply. Hitting T as soon as I got into a cap was a bad habit I picked up on Wickes and Clemson, which I'm trying to avoid now. Going with the flow too... Probably I am too hasty about making a play *now*, when maybe it's better to be less hasty...

 

I'll also try to more actively provide smoke for allied cruisers... I guess telling people you plan to at the start can be a good way of encouraging them to support you too, right?

 

I hadn't even thought about kiting enemy cruisers... Maybe something to practise in co-op/training room, given the bots' obliging tendency to chase you :cap_yes: What you did to that Pepsi sounds thoroughly entertaining :Smile_izmena:

 

On captain skills, I'm currently running PM, LS, SE, CE. I'm about 10k XP away from an 11th point, so I'll spend that on PT. Probably go SI, DE, AR after that... (I won a 10-point captain in Raptor Rescue with my Emerald back when T5s were allowed, so guess I'm lucky there!).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,204 posts
4,794 battles
1 hour ago, 10ThousandThings said:

Wow, thanks for all the tips @Captain_LOZFFVII! Those are some really useful ideas about smoke usage in cap contesting, which I'll try to apply. Hitting T as soon as I got into a cap was a bad habit I picked up on Wickes and Clemson, which I'm trying to avoid now.

No problem.

If it helps, try going down the KM DD line. I'm doing so and it's been a real learning experience having to deal with the German smokescreen (in short, KM DDs are 'smoke starved' in that they have short smoke generator duration, short smoke duration and long generator cooldown, meaning you really have to learn the correct time and place to activate your smoke).

1 hour ago, 10ThousandThings said:

Going with the flow too... Probably I am too hasty about making a play *now*, when maybe it's better to be less hasty...

 

I'll also try to more actively provide smoke for allied cruisers... I guess telling people you plan to at the start can be a good way of encouraging them to support you too, right?

It is normally expected that DDs will go to the cap closest to them. It's just up to you to watch whether your team is following you or buggering off somewhere else. Remember the F5 key defaults to 'Requesting Support', so you can use this to try and attract attention to your movements. Although F8 is normally a command to set a smoke screen, being in a DD you could probably use it to indicate you are activating yours.

It's a good idea to go for a cap to start with, but be prepared to leave if things go south. If you're still alive later in the match you can take the cap then, when the enemies have been thinned out a bit.

1 hour ago, 10ThousandThings said:

I hadn't even thought about kiting enemy cruisers... Maybe something to practise in co-op/training room, given the bots' obliging tendency to chase you :cap_yes: What you did to that Pepsi sounds thoroughly entertaining :Smile_izmena:

You might struggle to kite Japanese and Russian cruisers, due to their flatter shell arcs meaning they're more accurate at range, but you can certainly kite US cruisers or RN CLs as they have more rainbow-like shell arcs - or Battleships due to their slower rate of fire. In another battle (this time in Mahan) I remember kiting the secondary battery shells from a Bismarck. That was amusing.

Kiting the Pepsi was made easier by the only other living players on his team (a Furutaka and Gulio Cesare) being over towards our base while I was near his. After I sank him I got smacked for all but about 90hp by the Furrytaco who had turned back to 'no cap kill all' me. The Caesar Salad only just missed sending me to Davy Jones' Locker and the match ended while I was being pursued by the two of them (it was a loss for me, but making a fool of Pepsi was fun). I remember being called a 'slippery little bastard'.

My hands were shaking after that battle (as you might expect).

2 hours ago, 10ThousandThings said:

On captain skills, I'm currently running PM, LS, SE, CE. I'm about 10k XP away from an 11th point, so I'll spend that on PT. Probably go SI, DE, AR after that... (I won a 10-point captain in Raptor Rescue with my Emerald back when T5s were allowed, so guess I'm lucky there!).

Your first four are all generally good choices for DDs.

With the latter three (or, more precisely, the latter two) it looks like you're trying to go for a pure gunboat build, but if you really want to maximise your gunboat set up with the US DDs, I'd recommend swapping out Superintendent for Basic Firing Training. BFT reduces not only the reload time on AA or secondary batteries, but also on your main battery as your guns are less than 130mm in calibre. Furthermore, it can't hurt to improve your AA as US DDs have the best available AA on destroyers (apart from the Russian sub-branch).

I find that the extra consumable charges from premium consumables tends to be enough overall so I don't need Superintendent, although I am sitting on 60M credits so I can afford to make a few premium consumable-incurred losses.

In pretty much all of my DDs I'm running RL/RPF: in torpedoboats it's good for allowing me to keep away from other destroyers - or for allowing me to accurately torpedo another DD hiding in smoke; in gunboats it makes it easier to track down my prey. The only exceptions to this are the Russian DDs and the German DDs: the Russkis because they're more about shooting enemy capital ships at long range and generally being seen; Ze Germans because they have Hydro for griefing smokes.

 

Wow, I've really gone overboard here...

I hope this is all useful to you and I haven't overwhelmed you or anything.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
3,552 posts
8,863 battles
5 hours ago, 10ThousandThings said:

but working on not playing too aggressively and getting killed is much easier with team support.

Always plan minute or two ahead to have escape path either away from heavier/stronger enemies or then hard cover nearby aahead of you to put between yourself and those big guns.

Also always assume that those "friendlies" behind you won't help you against that enemy destroyer you're spotting/fighting with.

Hence be always ready to disengage and even more careful in planning ahead when facing higher tier/stronger destroyers.

It's better to live and keep doing damage/harm enemy's victory chances than throw away ship...

 

Especially when destroyer's value for victory chances tends to increase when number of ships in match decreases.

Also trading hitpoints/ships 1:1 is never good trade unless that's basically last enemy.

And in case of last enemy stealth torpedo boat and you being only good spotter/anti-DD ship in your team stay alive to protect team mates from it instead of rushing it if you don't have lots of hitpoints.

(also floating ship has point value if situation is tight on points)

 

 

5 hours ago, 10ThousandThings said:

Sorry, if I'd thought harder about what my question was before posting I'd have called the topic 'How to cope with lack of support in hybrid DDs?' or similar :Smile_hiding:

Plan from this assumption: If you want something done you better be ready to do it yourself.

So don't suicide rush, because dead ship helps only enemy...

Unless you managed to happen to sink that only enemy with enough brain cells for doing more than starting the game.

 

 

Just don't listen to me in not using Last Stand while not waiting for support.:Smile_glasses:

That's "Don't try this at home" stuff for Gremlin.

 

And when squishy cruisers shows its citadel remember to show it some AP love...

https://youtu.be/ehAj_dMrhmM?t=1m23s

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PUPSI]
Players
801 posts
2,665 battles

Thanks for the tips, both!

12 hours ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

Although F8 is normally a command to set a smoke screen, being in a DD you could probably use it to indicate you are activating yours.

It's a good idea to go for a cap to start with, but be prepared to leave if things go south. If you're still alive later in the match you can take the cap then, when the enemies have been thinned out a bit.

Yep, I'll be trying this. I think what's getting to me is not always really knowing what to do in the time between getting the hell out of Dodge and going back once enemies have thinned out.

 

12 hours ago, EsaTuunanen said:

plan minute or two ahead to have escape path either away from heavier/stronger enemies or then hard cover nearby aahead of you to put between yourself and those big guns

But yeah, if I can manage this after a fashion in my CLs I should be able to in my DDs – I guess it takes more practice. More reasons to play Nicholas quite a bit more before buying Farragut! I guess it doesn't exactly help that the battle I was mentioning earlier was on Strait, where finding hard cover that still allows you to be useful is... Well, I find it difficult.

 

12 hours ago, EsaTuunanen said:

Also trading hitpoints/ships 1:1 is never good trade unless that's basically last enemy.

Yes, of course. For all the reasons you mentioned it's never my intention – I just meant 'not even having traded' as a demonstration of how useless some battles can feel!!:Smile_amazed: Maybe I do just need to be even more careful about not suicide rushing... Maybe I think I'm being cautious but actually I'm not being cautious enough... And figuring out how I can be useful while not trying to force the cap, and reminding myself that staying alive is useful!

 

12 hours ago, EsaTuunanen said:

Plan from this assumption: If you want something done you better be ready to do it yourself.

So also, if you see three CLs closely covering a cap, forget trying to push into it unless you clearly have enough support (cos a single DD can't solo them AND an enemy DD)? Or is that too simplistic?

 

12 hours ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

You might struggle to kite Japanese and Russian cruisers, due to their flatter shell arcs meaning they're more accurate at range

Ah yes, have to say that smacking enemy DDs about in my own Furious Taco is great fun. I love that ship, as long as I'm the one sailing it :cap_haloween:

 

12 hours ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

our first four are all generally good choices for DDs.

With the latter three (or, more precisely, the latter two) it looks like you're trying to go for a pure gunboat build, but if you really want to maximise your gunboat set up with the US DDs, I'd recommend swapping out Superintendent for Basic Firing Training.

Ah okay. Yes, I am focusing on the guns really. On all my current lines I'm planning on stopping at T7 for the foreseeable future, as I don't have loads of time to play or money for premium time, and as I understand it you kinda need those to 1) be sufficiently competent for the higher tiers and 2) turn a profit in credits. And it seems like up to that point USN DDs are more gun-focused. Does that sound like a sensible thing to fpcus my  build on? I know Mahan can stealth-torp, but it has quite a fast torp reload anyway, IIRC? All of which is to say, I'll definitely look at BFT instead of SI. I always run premium damage control party and smoke, and still make a profit. Hopefully that'll continue on Farragut, but it's another reason to not rush getting it.

 

And thanks again! More info is always good, so no, it's not too overwhelming. Really looking forward to trying to put this into practice. It's really good to see some stuff that I'd kinda vaguely guessed at (e.g. captain builds, differences with Germans and Soviets) but didn't actually know in writing from more experienced players :Smile_honoring:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,204 posts
4,794 battles
4 hours ago, 10ThousandThings said:

Yep, I'll be trying this. I think what's getting to me is not always really knowing what to do in the time between getting the hell out of Dodge and going back once enemies have thinned out.

I would normally advise just trying to torp enemy ships, but of course that's not really viable in Nicholas. I guess it comes down to just keeping enemy ships spotted, you ARE rewarded for spotting, just not very well.

4 hours ago, 10ThousandThings said:

So also, if you see three CLs closely covering a cap, forget trying to push into it unless you clearly have enough support (cos a single DD can't solo them AND an enemy DD)? Or is that too simplistic?

If you had the torps for it, you could force them to think again about covering the cap, but once again this is where the mid-tier US DDs fall flat. Try to ping them with F3, maybe an ally battleship will take a pot shot...?

4 hours ago, 10ThousandThings said:

On all my current lines I'm planning on stopping at T7 for the foreseeable future, as I don't have loads of time to play or money for premium time, and as I understand it you kinda need those to 1) be sufficiently competent for the higher tiers and 2) turn a profit in credits. And it seems like up to that point USN DDs are more gun-focused. Does that sound like a sensible thing to fpcus my  build on? I know Mahan can stealth-torp, but it has quite a fast torp reload anyway, IIRC? All of which is to say, I'll definitely look at BFT instead of SI. I always run premium damage control party and smoke, and still make a profit. Hopefully that'll continue on Farragut, but it's another reason to not rush getting it.

If you don't intend to buy premium ships or premium time, a good technique is to 'step' your tech tree ships. I.e. I currently have a Benson as my highest tier US DD, while I'm grinding that I am also grinding a T5 KM DD and a T4 VMF DD. The lower tier ships help to finance the higher tier ship.

Another good rule-of-thumb, at least when going from T7 to T8 and up, is to try to have saved roughly double the number of credits needed to buy the next tier up before actually purchasing it. I did this when upgrading to Neptune and Minotaur, as well as Yuugumo and Shimakaze. Doing so ensures that you have plenty of experience playing in each destroyer before moving up the tiers, as well as ensuring you have enough credits for modernisations or half-retraining your captain (or even quickly upgrading from stock modules if they're particularly bad, like Fubuki/Shimakaze stock torpedoes).

 

Premium ships are always a good choice for credit earning and captain training. If you don't think you can afford even one, there are a few available for free. If you're not interested in the T9 Battleships I think WG may be rolling out FXP cruisers and destroyers eventually. There's also Shinonome, which is the reward for the Honorable Service campaign, although it's recommended you gain experience playing IJN DDs in order to fully appreciate Shinonome's playstyle.

 

In terms of what you should be building your US DDs into...well, really they are generalists. They can do anything you want them to, while other DD lines are more specialised.

Edited by Captain_LOZFFVII
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PUPSI]
Players
801 posts
2,665 battles
1 hour ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

would normally advise just trying to torp enemy ships, but of course that's not really viable in Nicholas. I guess it comes down to just keeping enemy ships spotted, you ARE rewarded for spotting, just not very well.

Okiedoke! I guess I'm also thinking of totally open caps, but if there's island cover I could work I guess ambush torps can become an option? I'll try just keeping them spotted and hitting F3 more, thanks for reassuring me that that is still being useful!!

 

If they're all firing already and so don't need me to spot them, I suppose I could always smoke up and start blazing away myself, while being wary of getting torped in smoke. I imagine gunboating in the open is somewhat less viable with USN arcs (?), but perhaps I just need to try out different combinations and figure out what works when.

 

'Stepping' sounds like a good system. I had thought about maybe buying the Sims at some point but not before I'm good enough to hold my own in it, don't want to be that guy who buys a higher-tier-than-his-tech-tree-ships premium and then just derps in it!! There seems to be a distinct lack of lower-tier USN premiums, apart from the Texas...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
361 posts
17,342 battles

Play a lot more DDs. Stats indicates that it is way too early to make anykind of assumptions regarding your gameplay. There is a lot of good advices in the comments above, but, most importantly, play more random games and see where it takes you. It seems like you have rushed through tiers and my advice would be to play more low tier games before jumping in to tier 5. That will change everything and no one really is ready for that. But more games will prepare you better.

 

DDs have a lot to learn. They are difficult to play (effectively) and have a lot of mechanics to be aware of. Watch some videos regarding DD gameplay in general and then the ships that you are playing atm. Rinse and repeat. It takes time, but will be rewarded.

 

Happy hunting fellow captain and fair seas!

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PUPSI]
Players
801 posts
2,665 battles
1 hour ago, Paimentaja said:

Play a lot more DDs. Stats indicates that it is way too early to make anykind of assumptions regarding your gameplay. There is a lot of good advices in the comments above, but, most importantly, play more random games and see where it takes you. It seems like you have rushed through tiers and my advice would be to play more low tier games before jumping in to tier 5. That will change everything and no one really is ready for that. But more games will prepare you better.

 

DDs have a lot to learn. They are difficult to play (effectively) and have a lot of mechanics to be aware of. Watch some videos regarding DD gameplay in general and then the ships that you are playing atm. Rinse and repeat. It takes time, but will be rewarded.

 

Happy hunting fellow captain and fair seas!

Thanks for this! Yes, I definitely need to play more. I've been quite surprised, since I started paying attention, at how many fewer games I do have in DDs compared to cruisers. And yeah, I don't have many random games... I played a lot of co-op after that initial run with the Nicholas; it (quite rightly) shook my confidence. Tbf I guess I played a fair amount of co-op in Clemson too, now I look back on it, so maybe I should be dropping back to that for a while...

 

My concern with that has been, basically, that I won't get as much out of playing more the Clemson rather than the Nicolas because 1) on lower tiers lots of people haven't realised the need to focus DDs down yet, so (I was thinking to myself) you don't really get to learn how to operate with the certainty of being focused as soon as you get spotted 2) teams seem more likely to sail in all kinds of random directions (especially in T3-4 matches) so you don't really get to learn how to work with your team and 3) Nicholas's guns have the same ballistic properties that you experience all the way to Gearing, so it seemed more productive to practise on that 4) even if I'm new, I felt like having a 10-point captain puts me at such an advantage over most T4 players that it makes it harder to learn how to operate against equally well-tooled-up opposition. But would you say T4 is still the place to get the lessons I need? Wouldn't be surprised if I'd got my reasoning horribly backwards :Smile_teethhappy:

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
361 posts
17,342 battles
1 hour ago, 10ThousandThings said:

Thanks for this! Yes, I definitely need to play more. I've been quite surprised, since I started paying attention, at how many fewer games I do have in DDs compared to cruisers. And yeah, I don't have many random games... I played a lot of co-op after that initial run with the Nicholas; it (quite rightly) shook my confidence. Tbf I guess I played a fair amount of co-op in Clemson too, now I look back on it, so maybe I should be dropping back to that for a while...

 

My concern with that has been, basically, that I won't get as much out of playing more the Clemson rather than the Nicolas because 1) on lower tiers lots of people haven't realised the need to focus DDs down yet, so (I was thinking to myself) you don't really get to learn how to operate with the certainty of being focused as soon as you get spotted 2) teams seem more likely to sail in all kinds of random directions (especially in T3-4 matches) so you don't really get to learn how to work with your team and 3) Nicholas's guns have the same ballistic properties that you experience all the way to Gearing, so it seemed more productive to practise on that 4) even if I'm new, I felt like having a 10-point captain puts me at such an advantage over most T4 players that it makes it harder to learn how to operate against equally well-tooled-up opposition. But would you say T4 is still the place to get the lessons I need? Wouldn't be surprised if I'd got my reasoning horribly backwards :Smile_teethhappy:

T4 is protected by MM, so you will get only +/-1 ships. T5 changes MM the way that it will be -1 to +2, and it may not sound bad but the amount of T5-7 games will whip the fun out of it very quickly. The curve of difficulty can be overwhelming. With T4's you can have a lot softer approach to the mechanics and gameplay in general, regarding DDs and the US DDs are "quite" difficult in T5-6 because stealth torping is virtually impossible. So to grind through T's 5 & 6, you really need to be prepared and "one" with your ship to perform well.

 

I'd also suggest that you grind some other DD line in the same time. That way you will :

 

- Get the benefit(s) of daily bonuses better

- Get faster grind (yes, overall, because of the daily bonuses, first win ect)

- Learn at least two different DD types in the same time and that is crucial to perform well in DD. You need to know your enemies and their capabilities. Therefore I suggest IJN line ; Those are torp boats mainly.

- Get the impression of what you would like to have in a DD in general

 

I know that the tier 4 can be utterly bad in the aspect of teamplay, but, you would more likely to have at least somewhat same kind of ships against you. Making mistakes in there will not be as bad as in the higher tiers and no radars at all. Radars change a lot of things and no one will be ready for them if rushing lower tiers. Radars will change the way to contest caps and how to position to kite them. That will be the story when entering tier 5 and higher.

 

So, when you have at least two DD lines grinded to tier 5 and reasonable amount of games in them, that would be the earliest time to move to T5 in my opinion. Ofc there are very good players and fast learners, but, in general that has been the most beneficial approach for majority of the players. This is somewhat complicated game and each tier will bring a lot of new stuff in it, so, take your time to learn all the nuances and most importantly, know your enemies and their capabilities. Every now and then in the lower tiers you will bump in to a sealclubber and you can learn from them. They will most likely have a 19 point captain and you will feel like there is nothing you can do. In higher tiers you don't even need to bump one of them to have that same feeling. Next step will be the T5-7 frenzy and all the new stuff to be learned.

 

Till then, I wish the best of luck to you and lots of nerves. Try to analyze your gameplay and mistakes. Make mistakes. Try different stuff to see what actually works and what will never work. There is an excellent guide section in this forum. Check that one out also.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
3,552 posts
8,863 battles
13 hours ago, 10ThousandThings said:

But yeah, if I can manage this after a fashion in my CLs I should be able to in my DDs – I guess it takes more practice. More reasons to play Nicholas quite a bit more before buying Farragut! I guess it doesn't exactly help that the battle I was mentioning earlier was on Strait, where finding hard cover that still allows you to be useful is... Well, I find it difficult.

Destroyer takes you faster closer to danger than any other ship if you're doing your job.

With T5 match making being bottom tier pretty much 75+ % of time T4 Clemson with protected +1 tier MM might be better for practising if you really struggle in consistency.

 

And USN DDs have that long lasting Marlboro smoke for cover.

So while of course needing smokes for getting out of Dodge alive try to use somore for smoke firing cover for yourself and say fast spamming cruiser.

Of course with 127mm/38 anti-air catapult/mortar of upgraded Nicholas and later you can also abuse islands.

 

13 hours ago, 10ThousandThings said:

So also, if you see three CLs closely covering a cap, forget trying to push into it unless you clearly have enough support (cos a single DD can't solo them AND an enemy DD)? Or is that too simplistic?

Priority one is always surviving, but always try to do some damage or at least cause trouble for enemy...

During time those torps of Nicholas travel that 5,5km cruisers travel 2½+ km closer to launching position of them so technically you can stealth torp even in open.

And with four triple launchers Nicholas can launch quite a lots of metal fishes.

Instead of straight bow on try to launch them little left or right of enemy's bow.

 

Also if enemies are well occupied there's always that smoke firing especially if enemies are showing broadside.

https://youtu.be/ehAj_dMrhmM?t=1m23s

https://youtu.be/QuWO60RGol4?t=2m43s

Because of very high Krupp value (penetration coefficient) of AP of USN 127mm/38 (vs super bad for Soviet 130mm AP) use AP against cruisers showing side at 7-8 km or closer...

Unless it's that darn baquette Emile Bertin, which is made of tinfoil and gives only overpens.
 

And in case of softest CLs there's always that "fun and engaging" mechanics chance.

https://youtu.be/ehAj_dMrhmM?t=5m43s

https://youtu.be/ad9KSyPKr8A?t=2m42s

 

If you have paid attention to my positioning in smokes it's usually bow away from enemy for easier/faster and safer running away in case of someone pushing close/smoke disappearing.

 

 

13 hours ago, 10ThousandThings said:

Ah yes, have to say that smacking enemy DDs about in my own Furious Taco is great fun. I love that ship, as long as I'm the one sailing it :cap_haloween:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PUPSI]
Players
801 posts
2,665 battles
13 hours ago, Paimentaja said:

- Learn at least two different DD types in the same time and that is crucial to perform well in DD. You need to know your enemies and their capabilities. Therefore I suggest IJN line ; Those are torp boats mainly.

Pretty please can Shenyang count as a torpedo boat? I get so bored in Isokaze. :Smile_teethhappy:

 

But, serious again – yes, I should do this. How can I counter torp boats if I don't know how their captains think, after all?


I took the Clemson out last night – just one battle before I had to go out – and was pretty happy with the result. Nothing incredible, but effective in a DD's role, I think. I'd far rather be able to do this in the majority of games than be a potato in 75% of DD games and an overcompensating rockstar in, say, 15%. I think getting to that point in Clemson first is the right call.

Spoiler


shot-18_05.22_19_20.59-0140.thumb.jpg.2cf6ee85b1d1057c97cce9441f62275c.jpg

shot-18_05.22_19_21.08-0597.thumb.jpg.0c3b98b0d84318fcdc22fb2c862bcb58.jpg

shot-18_05.22_19_21.19-0760.thumb.jpg.b487be64145456adec6f03ce41ae0b27.jpg

 

 

 

I let that V-170 get far too much AP damage into my broadside, though; I should have angled sooner. Never really thought about in DDs before but I will do in future. Overall it's amazing how much easier it is to make decisions when you feel relaxed and reasonably confident in a ship – just hoping I don't get so confident in Clemson that it becomes a mental obstacle to moving onto Nicholas again! So the plan now is at least 30 more games in Clemson, and a similar number in Isokaze (though can't promise I'll pick up Minekaze or Mutsuki again...) and Shenyang, before going for another 50 or so in Nicholas – but maybe more in each ship if I need it to feel I'm performing consistently and surviving for long enough to be useful in each. I'll see how it goes. And I'll stick Furutaka and my BB lines if I fancy something different, or getting into T5 on other classes. Thanks @EsaTuunanen for the tips on how to stay useful while surviving, I will try to apply them! (And I really enjoy Yuro's 'How to' videos :D)

 

Thanks again for your help, everyone. I'll look forward to maybe seeing you on the high seas at some point :Smile_honoring:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
361 posts
17,342 battles
1 hour ago, 10ThousandThings said:

Pretty please can Shenyang count as a torpedo boat? I get so bored in Isokaze. :Smile_teethhappy:

 

But, serious again – yes, I should do this. How can I counter torp boats if I don't know how their captains think, after all?

PA DDs are more or less the same as US DDs. (Can't remember the lower tier boats which was what and why) They ofc have deep water torps but their role as a gunboat is main. How can you counter torp boats, as a gunboat, how to counter gunboats as a torp boat. Exactly. Once you fail to sink a spotted torp boat and lose in a knifefight, you should learn what went wrong and what to not do and what to do, how to position against them ect. Same goes the other way.

 

1 hour ago, 10ThousandThings said:

I took the Clemson out last night – just one battle before I had to go out – and was pretty happy with the result. Nothing incredible, but effective in a DD's role, I think. I'd far rather be able to do this in the majority of games than be a potato in 75% of DD games and an overcompensating rockstar in, say, 15%. I think getting to that point in Clemson first is the right call.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

shot-18_05.22_19_20.59-0140.thumb.jpg.2cf6ee85b1d1057c97cce9441f62275c.jpg

shot-18_05.22_19_21.08-0597.thumb.jpg.0c3b98b0d84318fcdc22fb2c862bcb58.jpg

shot-18_05.22_19_21.19-0760.thumb.jpg.b487be64145456adec6f03ce41ae0b27.jpg

 

 

 

I let that V-170 get far too much AP damage into my broadside, though; I should have angled sooner. Never really thought about in DDs before but I will do in future. Overall it's amazing how much easier it is to make decisions when you feel relaxed and reasonably confident in a ship – just hoping I don't get so confident in Clemson that it becomes a mental obstacle to moving onto Nicholas again! So the plan now is at least 30 more games in Clemson, and a similar number in Isokaze (though can't promise I'll pick up Minekaze or Mutsuki again...) and Shenyang, before going for another 50 or so in Nicholas – but maybe more in each ship if I need it to feel I'm performing consistently and surviving for long enough to be useful in each. I'll see how it goes. And I'll stick Furutaka and my BB lines if I fancy something different, or getting into T5 on other classes. Thanks @EsaTuunanen for the tips on how to stay useful while surviving, I will try to apply them! (And I really enjoy Yuro's 'How to' videos :D)

 

Thanks again for your help, everyone. I'll look forward to maybe seeing you on the high seas at some point :Smile_honoring:

 

That is exactly what a good DD should do ; Cap and harras / deny / sink the enemy DD. That's it. Everything from there on is a bonus but teamplaywise that is the thing that will bring in the wins. There is no limit in the number of games in them, the key is, like you said, to feel confident in them and perform ; Surviving, capping, spotting, harrassing enemy DDs and doing all this without the feeling that you cannot do anything useful.

 

You are on the right track to do all this. You have atm the right attitude to do all this. With this mentality you will become a good player, if you maintain your enthusiasm. Nice to see that someone is this interested in this game and performing in it and most importantly, enjoying it and feeling confident. I bet that within one year, I will read from the notifications that I was sunk By 10ThousandThings during knifefight in cap contesting. Then I will feel great satisfaction out of this community's willingness and ability to provide help / pointers to someone who wants to improve his/hers gameplay.

 

In this topic there was some good points regarding somekind of mechanics and surviving in contesting caps. This was to the KM DD Gaede, but it will give you some impressions what to expect in higher tiers.

 

 

Fair seas and be gentle to us when we meet!

 

EDIT : This also had some very strong points and good conversation regarding the captain skills :

 

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
3,552 posts
8,863 battles
1 hour ago, 10ThousandThings said:

But, serious again – yes, I should do this. How can I counter torp boats if I don't know how their captains think, after all?

When attacking them in gunboat don't sail in straight lines, especially fully broadside.

After few gun salvos change direction either toward them, if lonely unsupported target and you'll win engagement easily, or away in case of enemy having support/you being at low hp. (or bad turret traverse)

Same really applies also in cruisers if there's any BB who might take pot shot at you...

 

And always try to check minimap at least once in 10 seconds for position of other enemies, or if new enemy was spotted close enough to hit you easily.

You should consider paranoia as mental equilibrium for enemy positions...

Meaning always plan like if those unspotted enemies might be behind corner of that island in front of you.

(and always expect torps to be launched into your smoke)

 

Hugging those islands without spotting information behind corner is easy way to get surprised and sinked.

And hydro and radar can detect you through even that Mt. Everest pretending to be island...

So it's good to roughly know their range:

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Consumables

 

 

1 hour ago, 10ThousandThings said:

I let that V-170 get far too much AP damage into my broadside, though; I should have angled sooner

Just like RN CLs German DDs have basically HE's fuze in their AP and those never overpen.

And in general showing broadside makes you easier to hit target, so better to be always angling some amount either towards or away from enemy.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
361 posts
17,342 battles
2 hours ago, EsaTuunanen said:

(and always expect torps to be launched into your smoke)

This is the most important thing regarding smoke screen and utilizing it. Always expect torps to be launched to your smokes. Always. Never sit in smokes broadside towards enemy. Ever.

 

EDIT : This also prepares you towards the radar ship tiers and how to contest caps with them.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PUPSI]
Players
801 posts
2,665 battles
21 hours ago, Paimentaja said:

You are on the right track to do all this. You have atm the right attitude to do all this. With this mentality you will become a good player, if you maintain your enthusiasm. Nice to see that someone is this interested in this game and performing in it and most importantly, enjoying it and feeling confident. I bet that within one year, I will read from the notifications that I was sunk By 10ThousandThings during knifefight in cap contesting. Then I will feel great satisfaction out of this community's willingness and ability to provide help / pointers to someone who wants to improve his/hers gameplay.

Haha we'll see! Either way, I'm looking forward to the learning curve and hopefully being able to hold my own at mid-tier in time. I've been finding recently that this community really is great when it comes to helping players who ask for it; it's a pleasure to be a part of. It's just great that experienced players will take the time to help a newbie improve, I really appreciate it.

 

Useful points in those other two other threads too.

 

20 hours ago, EsaTuunanen said:

When attacking them in gunboat don't sail in straight lines, especially fully broadside.

After few gun salvos change direction either toward them, if lonely unsupported target and you'll win engagement easily, or away in case of enemy having support/you being at low hp. (or bad turret traverse)

Same really applies also in cruisers if there's any BB who might take pot shot at you...

Okay, those sound like helpful rules of thumb – ta. I'm definitely trying to work on my situational awareness too, so I have a better sense of what might be around any island. Minimap every 10 seconds... That'll be my target!

 

20 hours ago, EsaTuunanen said:

And hydro and radar can detect you through even that Mt. Everest pretending to be island...

So it's good to roughly know their range:

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Consumables

I'd not found this bit of the wiki before – that's really helpful! Good to know about KM DDs' AP too.

 

I'm going to be paying much more attention to my positioning in smokes from now on too!

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
3,552 posts
8,863 battles
9 hours ago, 10ThousandThings said:

Okay, those sound like helpful rules of thumb – ta. I'm definitely trying to work on my situational awareness too, so I have a better sense of what might be around any island. Minimap every 10 seconds... That'll be my target!

 

I'm going to be paying much more attention to my positioning in smokes from now on too!

Also enable last known position of ships in minimap if it isn't enabled by default.

You might miss seeing only momentarily spotted enemy in minimap.

So last known position moving can tell which way enemy is moving, or where previously unspotted enemy is.

Like I pretty much guessed that Maass was coming after me... unfortunately for him.:Smile-_tongue:

So in destroyers remember that Gneisenau/Scharnhorst might have sent gift for you if you smoke at short distance.

 

That paying attention to minimap and last known position of DDs is also how battleships can avoid crazy number of torps:

https://youtu.be/sIF5fUVLzQQ?t=1m5s

So when wanting to improve torpedo hit chances it's good thing to have been unspotted for some time.

Though of course there are those players who just sail in straight line past that island even if they saw ship in front of them getting torped.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PUPSI]
Players
801 posts
2,665 battles
14 minutes ago, EsaTuunanen said:

So when wanting to improve torpedo hit chances it's good thing to have been unspotted for some time

14 minutes ago, EsaTuunanen said:

Also enable last known position of ships in minimap if it isn't enabled by default

Yeah, will remember that when trying to git gud in Isokaze.

 

And already done! No idea why it isn't enabled by default, but it's very helpful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SM0KE]
Players
6,117 posts
14,594 battles
On 5/21/2018 at 8:45 AM, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

If you want consistency you have to go for the russian DDs, they don't even care that they have torpedoes - just speed along singing 'Rasputin' and firing your guns ad nauseum until the enemy is dead.

Love this image! :Smile_teethhappy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,204 posts
4,794 battles
2 hours ago, Verblonde said:

Love this image! :Smile_teethhappy:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,718 posts
17,975 battles
Am 22.5.2018 um 01:05, Captain_LOZFFVII sagte:

 Speaking of smoke, don't bother smoking up as soon as you enter a cap, you are not only blinding yourself (so you aren't spotting any enemies) but you are also broadcasting your general position to the enemy team, so they know where to launch their torpedoes.

1:00 minute onwards. Mr Nesbit chose a rather obvious cover...

  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×