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Pagster123

Italian Battleship Proposal

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Hello all!

 

I've put together a Fr05ty-style analysis for the suggestions of an Italian BB line. After my UK post and the fair criticisms I recieved, I have decided to do a lot more research into each ship to see if it is worth putting where I want it. However, if I still messed up, let me know! :)

 

Quick summary:  

 

Flavour
-          High velocity AP and HE shells with poor fire chance but improved penetration.
-          Turtleback armour in lower through to upper tiers.
-          Outstanding concealment, only trumped by UK.
-          Good cruiser hunters but poor brawlers against other battleships.
-          Mediocre AA.
-          Poor secondaries.
-          Heavy AP shells for improved ballistics over other lines.
-        No gimmicks! 
-          Slow dreadnoughts transitioning into fast battlecruisers.

 

Tree:

Tier 3: Pisa
Tier 4: Dante Alighieri
Tier 5: Conte di Cavour
Tier 6: Andrea Doria 
Tier 7:  Sicily (Project 770)
Tier 8: Littorio
Tier 9: Livorno
Tier 10: Sardegna (UP-41)

 

Tier 3:
Pisa

file.thumb.png.a7f276d63338d3e233d2f7e6c2f686a0.png

Fast facts:

9,832 tonnes
130m long
23 knot top speed
2x2 10 inch guns
4x2 7.5 inch guns
16x1 3 inch guns
3 450mm torpedoes
200mm belt protection
51mm deck protection

 

Traits:

- Odd but surprisingly useful main guns.

- Citadel magnet.

- No AA.

- Passable secondaries.

- Fast for Tier III.

- Quite small for a battleship.

 

The Pisa is a strange ship. At first, I wanted to choose the Regina Elena, before realising how crippling 2x1 12 inch guns would be. Instead, this ship, despite being a battleship with only 4 guns and 10 inch guns, would also incorporate a new feature: multi-calibre main guns. This would mean the ship's rifles would be the 2x2 10 inch guns as well as 4x2 7.5 inch guns. This presents a problem - they have different reloads. Well, I have come up with two different solutions:
A) Have the smaller guns have the same reload as the larger ones but to compensate for this, increase their damage and some soft stats.
B) Sort of like when you fire off different guns in different times, you can fire your smaller guns while the large ones are still reloading, for example.
The Pisa should play like an overly sized cruiser. The 200mm belt means you could be citadelled by other ships of your tier with relative ease, so play to the strengths and use her to hunt cruisers and avoid battleships at all costs. She won't be anything special at her tier, a pretty "meh" ship like the Kawachi, but let's be honest - will many people really care?

 

Tier 4:
Dante Alighieri 

dante_alighiery_battleship_by_acelanceloet.thumb.png.2949d9225781dcacdff4f3be5e709290.png

Fast facts:
19,886t
168m long
22 knot top speed
4x3 12 inch guns
12x1, 4x2 4.7 inch guns
3 450mm torpedoes
254mm belt protection
38mm deck protection

 

Traits:
- Nikolai PTSD-inducing gun layout.

- Poor self-protection.

- Laughable secondaries.

- No AA.

- Great guns at both long and short range.

- Sleep-provoking manoeuvrability.

- Battleship to the core.


Unlike the Pisa, this ship would be one of the best at its tier. 4x3 12 inch guns at tier 4? Wow! While not that special calibre-wise, this ship could be a very strong asset to the collection of tier 4 battleships. While definitely no Wyoming with gun count, the guns would easily be this ships highlight. Although she is slower than Pisa by one knot, this is made up for (especially considering the jump in tier) by the increased belt of 254mm.  One major advantage which flew out at me when I first saw this ship was the gun arrangement - a A-P-Q-X configuration, which might not sound special until you realise P and Q turret are both forward facing. This is the same as the Imperator Nikolai I. This gun arrangement means you can easily switch 9 rifles from port to starboard without having to undergo a near 360 degree rotation on one or two of your turrets. Dante Alighieri would be a smooth transition into the line's flavour of faster and more well-armed cruiser hunters - although, she is probably the most stereotypical battleship of all the ones on this list. She should play like any other tier 4 battleship - sailing around, blasting cruisers at the opportunity and tanking other battleships.

Tier 5:

Conte di Cavour

5b00b1d40e29f_file(1).thumb.png.b8bac73e579ef9ee9daf552525ac88b4.png

 

Fast facts:

23,458t

176m long

21.5 knot top speed

2x2, 2x3 12 inch guns

18x1 4.7 inch guns

14x1 3 inch guns

3 450mm torpedoes

250mm belt protection

40mm deck protection

 

Traits:

- Poor secondaries stock, passable at fully-researched.

- Mediocre but sometimes trolly armour.

- Great, long-range accurate guns.

- Perfect battleship/battlecruiser hybrid.

- Uptiers well.

- No AA stock, decent AA fully-researched.

 

Conte di Cavour. The Giulio Cesare's forgotten sister. And to be perfectly honest, I can see why. Historically, Cesare was the much more famous ship, being victim to the longest hit ever made by another surface ship, HMS Warspite. But in game, I can imagine this ship would fare extremely similarly to her sister. The lack of armour protection but meaty guns call for a perfect battlecruiser. A turtleback too means sometimes an enemy may get some trolly bounces and overpens when in a close-quarters fight. Conte di Cavour would come first in her WWI hull, with the extra triple-barrelled turret in the middle. Although for the extra gun, she'd be slower, have worse secondaries and the firing angles on P turret would be awful. So, the fully researched Cavour could fare very well against higher-tiered opponents when played correctly. But just like the Cesare, get cocky and get punished.

 

Tier 6:

Andrea Doria

5b00b1d516734_file(2).thumb.png.26bb43e4cf06e162850b5c67e3f0ed66.png

 

Fast facts:

29,345t

176m long

26 knot top speed

2x2, 2x3 12 inch guns

4x3 5.3 inch guns

3 450mm torpedoes

250mm belt protection

98mm deck protection

 

Traits:
- Holy DECK ARMOUR!
- Finally, a fast battleship.

- Same old reliable guns from Cavour but just straight up better.

- Good AA!

- Passable secondaries.

- Poor protection at T6.

 

The Andrea Doria is a breath of fresh air. While initally very similiar to the Conte di Cavour down at T5 (and rightfully so, they are built upon the same hull), she has a few differences. For first, she has nice AA firepower. Although they are all 37mm and 20mm, the secondary 135mm also contribute to the flak. The Doria's AA is mostly defensive but when the planes get close, she'll nail them like swatting flies. However, not all is sun and rainbows. The Cesare and Cavour are good where they are because they cannot fight tier 8s. However, with the current state of tier 6 MM, you will be facing nasty tier 8 battleships. And with 250mm of belt armour, Doria makes the Mutsu blush. She will eat citadels for days. But, and a BIG but, she has amazing deck armour for her tier. If Doria can stay far away, then she will bait shots into her deck and not into her juicy citadel. Fortunately, the guns are ever so slightly improved with better shells and ballistics, but either way - 12 inch guns against tier 7/8 battleships frequently won't serve her well. She will be thoroughly "meh".

 

Tier 7:

Sicily

5b00b2be483b9_file(6).thumb.png.973bce944fd39bd585120b065dfbd71b.png

Fast facts:

18,900t

170m~

28 knot top speed

2x3 15 inch guns

6x2 4 inch guns

2x4 450mm torpedoes

330mm~ belt protection

100mm~ deck protection

 

Traits:
- Huge armour upgrade, some of the best even against tier 9s.

- Quick!

- Quite the agile machine.

- Big gun upgrade.

- Low gun count.

- Decent AA.

- Worst secondaries at it's tier.

 

Our first paper ship! And this one was a difficult choice. I was originally going to go with Livorno, but I think a 2 turret system at tier 9 wouldn't work with 15 inch guns. No way. So, Sicily has a lot of estimated values due to its existence being quite.. discrete. A breath of fresh air, however! This ship would have absolutely superb concealment, on par with cruisers of the same tier. Her super good armour can allow for some interesting situations and also being able to tank properly, and her 15 inch guns pack a punch - they are the tier VIII guns just slapped at T7 with no nerfs. This is required due to her cripplingly low gun count - 6 rifles total. To combat this, they need to have good sigma, defeating the "throw enough poop at the wall" meta. Also, TORPEDOES! A 6km range seems fitting for these, with good firing angles to the front and poor at the rear (they will be placed just aft of the secondary battery). This ship should behave as a silent, cruiser hunter. She cannot tank battleships as she will lose out on DPM but can if an emergency calls for it.


Tier 8:

Littorio

5b00b1d65b77f_file(3).thumb.png.ef70eaa564392089e51d84baf2105ddc.png

 

Fast facts:

40,724t

238m long

30 knot top speed

3x3 15 inch guns

4x3 6 inch guns

12 3.5 inch guns

280mm belt protection

150mm deck protection

Traits:

- Fantastic concealment.

- Agile.

- Good guns.

- Trolly but often citadelled armour.

- Meh AA.

- Good secondaries.

 

The Littorio. You know I had to do it to 'em. She just makes perfect sense at T8, and especially with Roma at VIII, it would be weird to put her anywhere else. Littorio would present very similiar play to Roma, but possibly give her some of her post-fit mods, such as increased AA defence, sort of like a Tirpitz x Bismarck relationship. She is not a brawler, but is a good cruiser hunter as well as doing some fair damage to other battleships when given the opportunity. One word: Littorio. She will be impressive.

 

Tier 9:
Livorno

5b00b1d767f14_file(4).thumb.png.aa719c49927cee8ab3229b88619e52c2.png

 

Fast facts:

26,500t

190m~ long

32 knot top speed

3x3 17 inch guns 

4x3 6 inch guns

6x2 4 inch guns

300mm~ belt protection

180mm~ deck protection

 

Traits:

- A heavily armored battlecruiser/battleship hybrid.

- Meh secondaries.

- Meh AA.

- HOLY ARMOUR!

- HOLY SPEED!

 

Livorno, the Missouri killer. Okay, that might be a little hyperbolic, but this ship is the perfect T9 battleship. Good armour, great deck, really quick, great concealment and great guns. What stops this thing from being OP? No turtleback, poor AA and poor secondaries. This should be played as a bit of both - a cruiser killer but also a battleship contender. She can do it, and she will be able to do it well. What makes her so concealed? Her size. Of course, this small size comes at the expense of her self-defence. But her armour can do that job good enough anyway, so who cares? (unless you're a carrier, but who sees those anyways?)

 

Tier 10:

Sardegna

5b00b1d870636_file(5).thumb.png.141bbe51bf86ef514b2afdbe195f1712.png

 

Fast facts:

45,700t

230m~ long

33 knot top speed

3x3 18 inch guns

4x3 6 inch guns

12x2 4 inch guns

350mm~ belt protection

190mm~ belt protection

 

Traits:
- Yamato PTSD.

- Good secondaries.

- Decent AA.

- Balancer-of-BB guns.

- Manoeuvrable.

- Most sneaky of the tier 10 battleships.

 

Sardegna.. A ship with an identity crisis. Is she a battlecruiser which hunts down cruisers and strays away from the main fight? Is she a battleship who camps at the back? Neither or both, depending on how you see it. Sardegna can perform a multitude of tasks and she can do them all well. How does she play? Well, we'd have to see in testing.

 

In conclusion:

Italian battleships are odd. They are not your usual battleships but not really battlecruisers either. They are their own class and playstyle in their own respective right. They don't try to do anything spectacularly but just get the job done and do it very well. Did you enjoy this? Want to give some advice/suggestions? Then let me know! And as always..

 

Happy sailing!

 

 

Big thanks to the Shipbucket.com archive for making these ships. They are a huge help for research and showcasing stuff about them and I really appreciate their work.

 

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I don't see Pisa working as a T3, too Mikasa-like (and Mikasa was put at T2). Even the French T3 BB, Turenne, has been adapted from a pre-dreadnought design to fit the unified main battery, hence the amount of funnels and oddly big turrets for such hull. For a somewhat proper T3 starting the BB line I'd suggest Cuniberti's 1903 proposal for an all-big-gun battleship. It could be named after him too.

 

Andrea Doria... maybe with the refurbished 320mm guns instead of the original 305mm (12 in.).

 

For T7 you could have used Francesco Caracciolo, which was an actual design although never completed. It's argued that the Regia Marina would have been much better off at the beginning of WW2 if the Caracciolos had been completed instead of rebuilding the Cavours and Dorias, but WW1 and the post-war economic constraints prevented that.

 

Livorno and Sardegna seem too small for the guns fitted: enlarging both, but limiting Livorno to 16 in. (similar to those at the same tier) and Sardegna to 17 in. could work though.

 

Salute.

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YES. Im are very Glad at You begin on Italy Warships, I look on Your British Ships to the Game, very good. My begining look in Italy Warships to the Game. Italy have alot on Destroyer speciellt, but Crusier and Battleship too. 

We can help on it. Pagster 123.

 

 

Link_

 

 

Here is a Greate Size to read on Warships.

Italian Navy

Link:

http://www.worldnavalships.com/italian.htm

 

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2 hours ago, Larse8x said:

YES. Im are very Glad at You begin on Italy Warships, I look on Your British Ships to the Game, very good. My begining look in Italy Warships to the Game. Italy have alot on Destroyer speciellt, but Crusier and Battleship too. 

We can help on it. Pagster 123.

 

 

Link_

 

 

Here is a Greate Size to read on Warships.

Italian Navy

Link:

http://www.worldnavalships.com/italian.htm

 

Thank you for the kind words.

 

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

You can be sure they are already working on the line.

Likely, but I felt like doing this anyway. :P

 

5 hours ago, Estaca_de_Bares said:

I don't see Pisa working as a T3, too Mikasa-like (and Mikasa was put at T2). Even the French T3 BB, Turenne, has been adapted from a pre-dreadnought design to fit the unified main battery, hence the amount of funnels and oddly big turrets for such hull. For a somewhat proper T3 starting the BB line I'd suggest Cuniberti's 1903 proposal for an all-big-gun battleship. It could be named after him too.

 

Andrea Doria... maybe with the refurbished 320mm guns instead of the original 305mm (12 in.).

 

For T7 you could have used Francesco Caracciolo, which was an actual design although never completed. It's argued that the Regia Marina would have been much better off at the beginning of WW2 if the Caracciolos had been completed instead of rebuilding the Cavours and Dorias, but WW1 and the post-war economic constraints prevented that.

 

Livorno and Sardegna seem too small for the guns fitted: enlarging both, but limiting Livorno to 16 in. (similar to those at the same tier) and Sardegna to 17 in. could work though.

 

Salute.

Thank you for the criticism, this makes a lot of sense. I didn't put the Caracciolo at T7 as it was too Kongo-like and felt better for T4. However, I agree with the Pisa change and the criticisms you presented. Thank you!

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Tier 3: Cuniberti (Cuniberti's big-gun-battleship)

Tier 4: Dante Alighieri

Tier 5: Conte di Cavour (WWI config.)

Tier 6: Andrea Doria (320mm Mark 34) (WWII config.)

Tier 7: Ferrati (G series)

Tier 8: Littorio

Tier 9: Sardegna (UP-41)
Tier 10: Cassone

 

How does this sound guys? The Fransesco Caracciolo didn't make the cut but instead I put the Ferrati G series design in. 4x4 15 inch guns sounds a bit much for T7 but I'm not sure. Cassone's project is now the T10, and Sardegna got moved down to T9. Livorno was cut as it isn't enough for a T9, let alone a T7. The Andrea Doria also recieved a change, getting the 320mm Mark 34 gun turrets, bumping them up to 12.5 inches. Pisa was also cut as she wouldn't make it even at T2, so Cuniberti's big-gun-battleship was placed there instead. Conte di Cavour also remains in her WWI config, making her different from the Cesare. Finally, the only tier to not recieve a change was the Littorio! :Smile_teethhappy:

 

Let me know if this is good. I've taken the advice on board but if Caracciolo needs to be in there somewhere I will take that into account.

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Weekend Tester
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19 hours ago, Pagster123 said:

6x2 4 inch guns

 

19 hours ago, Pagster123 said:

6x2 4 inch guns

 

19 hours ago, Pagster123 said:

12x2 4 inch guns

It's a 1910 gun, probably it will be swapped for the 90mm or the 135 for high tiers and VII

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