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Alex_Connor

Mutsu - Yes or No?

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Looking for a premium crew trainer and credit earner that would fit with Japanese BB line, so how competitive is the Mutsu? 8x 16in guns on tier 6 sound pretty good, and I'm getting on well enough with the Ishizuchi + Kongo so thin armor isn't a major problem if the ship is fast. Also considering the Kii, though that might be jumping too far up the tiers. Alternatively could wait and see if Ashitaka comes back on sale.

 

So what's the 2018 verdict on the Mutsu, and how do the different premium Japanese BBs compare?

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I'd say she's the best value for money of the lot.

 

Ashitaka has always left me feeling very underwhelmed, while Mutsu remains a nice solid tier 6 BB.

 

Of course the tier 6 mm is what it is, but that is not the ship's fault..

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Haven't really played a lot with mine which I got out of a super container but I'm not very thrilled about her.  Somehow she doesn't really cut it for me, guns seem too dependent on RNG and she is a bit slow but I don't really play her that much.

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Out of the three I'd say she's a solid second place. Kii is better by a bit.

Mutsu is very squishy, which means that you always have to watch out for the surprise citadel. You can't really brawl in her. But thanks to the torps you can surprise enemies that ambush you.

If you can stay at range and do damage you will find the ship comfortable. But still not as good as the Kii, although the T6 MM won't force you to fight T10 ships, which is a big plus.

 

Now about the Ashitaka. Do not even look at her, she's not worth the money.That ship has very few redeeming qualities and only a small group of players like her.

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Certainly not having to (potentially) face either the Yamato or the Musashi and their 46cm (18,1in for you imperial types) guns is a bonus.

 

And the Ashitaka can and will face the latter, while the Kii can end up facing either of those monsters..

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Mutsu is one of my favourite BBs in the game. The overmatch on those guns means basically you're like a Yamato in your tier spread (except against T8 but fortunately that doesn't happen often). It's not as fast as Kongo/Ishi but it can hit a respectable 27 knots (I always run mine with speed flag). Turret traverse is good, firing angles are good, it is a comfortable ship to play if you're used to the IJN ship line. It's accurate, hard hitting, and looks gorgeous. :Smile_great:

 

Main downsides are... overpens (the other side of the coin to massive overmatch). Against T5 and T6 cruisers you're actually better off shooting them when they angle than broadside. Against BBs, at long range you need to aim higher because you won't be penetrating any main belts.

 

I would say as a T6 premium it's excellent value.

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Realy liked the look of this thing for a long time,but now went and grabbed it.

Did one game game,other than its AA(rubish),looks promising:Smile_great:

 

shot-18.05.20_11.26.29-0290.jpg

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A decent ship. I like mine. Nothing to add since a lot of them already said above.

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Is it fun? Yes

 

Is it good? Very debatable

 

Is it worth? yes its a cheap tier 6

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Mutsu is just.......crap sure she has some good points but they really dont make up for all the bad ones. She can be very easy to delete with Queen Elizabeth and Warspite :Smile_playing:

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Well thanks for the advice, I brought the Mutsu. Doesn't sound like the Ashitaka is worth waiting for and tier 8 might be a leap too far right now considering Kongo is my highest tier tech tree BB (do have a tier 7 DD).

 

Feels a lot like the Kongo but with really scary guns. Got 2 citadels in different salvos on a Fuso at over 20km and a 15k damage non-citadel salvo on an Arizona almost on his spawn point. They do seem to overpen cruisers though, I sailed round a corner into a side on stationary Cleveland, perfect ambush and the whole broadside did 7k damage. Not sure if that's an overpen through the citadel or if I just managed to miss really badly.

 

Best game so far was 122k damage but I did get to torpedo a Normandie brawling and kill him so pretty happy with that.

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Mutsu is awesome, don't rely on the torpedoes though. She's squishy, but she's fast and has great guns that can overmatch everything but T8. She's almost like a high-alpha cruiser in her playstyle.

 

If you enjoy her you may also think about Kii at some point, which is another battlecruiser much like Mutsu (less good at overmatching, but 10 good guns instead)  plus ridiculous AA.

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I bought her because I like to collect. I have found RNGesus doesn't like her main battery guns one bit and don't use her much as a result.

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22 hours ago, Teekesselchen said:

Mutsu is awesome, don't rely on the torpedoes though. She's squishy, but she's fast and has great guns that can overmatch everything but T8. She's almost like a high-alpha cruiser in her playstyle.

 

If you enjoy her you may also think about Kii at some point, which is another battlecruiser much like Mutsu (less good at overmatching, but 10 good guns instead)  plus ridiculous AA.

Kii looks like a lot of fun but it's quite similar to the tech tree Amagi? Can't get enough fast battleships and battlecruisers but one of the big draws to pay real money for the Mutsu was having something unique for the tier.

 

Hood for example is looking tempting, maybe a few months down the line...

 

Heard there are discounts on German BBs so will try and get Gneisenau, seen a few of them tearing around the map making even Mutsu look a bit slow, see if there are any other fast BBs worth grinding or buying.

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2 hours ago, Alex_Connor said:

Kii looks like a lot of fun but it's quite similar to the tech tree Amagi? Can't get enough fast battleships and battlecruisers but one of the big draws to pay real money for the Mutsu was having something unique for the tier.

 

Hood for example is looking tempting, maybe a few months down the line...

 

Heard there are discounts on German BBs so will try and get Gneisenau, seen a few of them tearing around the map making even Mutsu look a bit slow, see if there are any other fast BBs worth grinding or buying.

Don't forget the Scharnhorst. Just as fast as her sister, and quite forgiving.

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10 hours ago, Alex_Connor said:

Kii looks like a lot of fun but it's quite similar to the tech tree Amagi? Can't get enough fast battleships and battlecruisers but one of the big draws to pay real money for the Mutsu was having something unique for the tier.

 

Hood for example is looking tempting, maybe a few months down the line...

 

Heard there are discounts on German BBs so will try and get Gneisenau, seen a few of them tearing around the map making even Mutsu look a bit slow, see if there are any other fast BBs worth grinding or buying.

 

Kii and Amagi are not exactly the same. Amagi has better accuracy, reload and protection, Kii has better AA and her own torpedoes. After looking at some reviews I decided Kii isn't worth it, it seemed like Amagi is better at just being a vanilla battlecruiser (oh god those Amagi guns...).

 

So Amagi is absolutely worth grinding.

 

You might want to look at Ashitaka I as well at some point, a weaker Amagi but more unique at T7.

 

I think you're very likely to like Hood if/when you do get her. It does feel like a T7 Kongo in a very good way, but even faster and with more responsive gun handling. Nothing like the look on a DDs face when you thread his torps and run him down. One can colonise much more effectively at 34.5 knots (speed flag again). :Smile_izmena: plus those 15" shells have special fuse and bounce settings so they don't overpen as much, it's a cruiser nightmare.

 

But yeah, from experience Hood definitely shares the Kongo/Mutsu/Amagi playstyle so it's a natural choice for a battlecruiser fan.

 

Gneisenau is ludicrously fast (Scharnhorst is actually 2 knots slower) but those ships play nothing like the traditional big gun battlecruisers of Japan and the UK. They're not accurate and they don't hit very hard, but they reload faster and have lots of secondaries and torps. They're more about aggressive positioning and close range DPM while Japanese ships are more about drive-bys, kiting and big mid range alpha strikes with their guns. It's like two sides of the battlecruiser coin.

 

Also, if you're after more battlecruisers an unexpected place you might want to look is Iowa. It's a long grind to her but... Fastest BB in the game: check! Most accurate and hardest hitting guns at her tier: check! Outspots half the cruisers in her tier spread: check! Armoured with wet paper: yup! Sounds like a battlecruiser to me!

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3 hours ago, VC381 said:

 

Kii and Amagi are not exactly the same. Amagi has better accuracy, reload and protection, Kii has better AA and her own torpedoes. After looking at some reviews I decided Kii isn't worth it, it seemed like Amagi is better at just being a vanilla battlecruiser (oh god those Amagi guns...).

 

So Amagi is absolutely worth grinding.

 

You might want to look at Ashitaka I as well at some point, a weaker Amagi but more unique at T7.

 

I think you're very likely to like Hood if/when you do get her. It does feel like a T7 Kongo in a very good way, but even faster and with more responsive gun handling. Nothing like the look on a DDs face when you thread his torps and run him down. One can colonise much more effectively at 34.5 knots (speed flag again). :Smile_izmena: plus those 15" shells have special fuse and bounce settings so they don't overpen as much, it's a cruiser nightmare.

 

But yeah, from experience Hood definitely shares the Kongo/Mutsu/Amagi playstyle so it's a natural choice for a battlecruiser fan.

 

Gneisenau is ludicrously fast (Scharnhorst is actually 2 knots slower) but those ships play nothing like the traditional big gun battlecruisers of Japan and the UK. They're not accurate and they don't hit very hard, but they reload faster and have lots of secondaries and torps. They're more about aggressive positioning and close range DPM while Japanese ships are more about drive-bys, kiting and big mid range alpha strikes with their guns. It's like two sides of the battlecruiser coin.

 

Also, if you're after more battlecruisers an unexpected place you might want to look is Iowa. It's a long grind to her but... Fastest BB in the game: check! Most accurate and hardest hitting guns at her tier: check! Outspots half the cruisers in her tier spread: check! Armoured with wet paper: yup! Sounds like a battlecruiser to me!

Hood also has an incredible hp pool for her tier and pretty good armour protection while angled, while the guns have good arcs. If you can avoid the bow or stern getting overmatched, this ship can tank a lot of damage, especially given it has 51 mm of deck armour for most of the deck, which just ricochets AP and shatters HE, even from high level HE pen threats like Roon. The guns indeed have an easy time penning cruisers, but cannot citadel BBs most of the times. But you can't have it all. Just settle for normal pens. Very comfortable handling otherwise, even without captain skills, which makes her a pretty good RN trainer, btw.

 

Ashitaka meanwhile... why? It's an old Amagi stock hull. One of the worst hulls to have ever existed and it was removed for a reason. You are going into T7 battles with a ship that has not great accuracy, AP that is defective and reliant on overpen (same old AP shell type as found on Myogi, ishizuchi and Mutsu, just that most of these have an easier time just overpenning and Ishizuchi typically spams HE at anything with actual armour), pretty much no AA and turns like a brick. It's like if you gave Nagato another gun turret and a few knots of speed and in exchange sucked all the power out of her rifles and her survivability. Something like Kii actually just trades accuracy and broadside protection for AA and torpedoes, but if it hits, it hits like you expect 41 cm guns to hit. Ashitaka meanwhile is entirely dependant on MM putting you up vs T5 and not T9, though likely even a Ryuujou can kill you with ease. I mean, if you think you need to have Ashitaka, sure, but the only IJN premium BB that might be worse is Mikasa (but Mikasa was cheaper and at T2, who cares?). 

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Yeah, I wasn't actively recommending Ashitaka. It would be hypocritical of me because I wanted it for a long time (say what you like, she looks gorgeous) but decided against buying her in the last sale because I doubted I wanted her enough to make up for performance issues.

 

But it's still a battlecruiser so the theme fits, and T7 MM is generally quite favourable. I'm sure you can have fun in the ship if you're not that fussed about being the strongest.

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18 minutes ago, VC381 said:

Yeah, I wasn't actively recommending Ashitaka. It would be hypocritical of me because I wanted it for a long time (say what you like, she looks gorgeous) but decided against buying her in the last sale because I doubted I wanted her enough to make up for performance issues.

 

But it's still a battlecruiser so the theme fits, and T7 MM is generally quite favourable. I'm sure you can have fun in the ship if you're not that fussed about being the strongest.

Issue to me is, for IJN battlecruiserish ships, there exist the Kii for worthwhile credit gain and captain exp and the Ishizuchi for low tier fun. Mutsu is also more competitive, as would be Musashi, though they arguably don't have the speed (but both rely on overpen and have little AA). Silver there exist Myougi, Kongou and Amagi (Fuso and Nagato are again a bit slower, but also not that different).

 

Meanwhile for T7 fast, worthwhile BBs, there exist also the Hood, the Scharnhorst, the Duke of York (if one got her), and in silver there are the KGV and Gneisenau.

 

So, overall, the ship isn't offering much new, it offers a package that might work, but which is likely better served by silver ships and with other competing premiums that likely offer a more fun overall experience. So, you'd have to wonder whether to get this ship or like 4 different premiums that offer either a better IJN experience or better T7 battlecruiser experience, unlike you really just have too much money and don't care. And that is assuming you have no other ships you might want to buy from other playstyles and really just want to focus on the battlecruiser playstyle (personally for example, the reason I did not buy a Scharnhorst was that I bought an Atlanta instead, which is an absolutely different kind of ship, but also a type of ship I enjoy).

 

Additionally, I'd argue that for some, and I would think it would apply to me too, would be kind of disappointed with the Ashitaka, having played the Amagi already, because of how much of a downgrade it is (and a tier lower). Hood or Scharnhorst feel that far less, as Hood is quite different from KGV and the Scharnhorst is not just a Gneisenau stripped down.

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3 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Hood also has an incredible hp pool for her tier and pretty good armour protection while angled, while the guns have good arcs. If you can avoid the bow or stern getting overmatched, this ship can tank a lot of damage, especially given it has 51 mm of deck armour for most of the deck, which just ricochets AP and shatters HE, even from high level HE pen threats like Roon. The guns indeed have an easy time penning cruisers, but cannot citadel BBs most of the times. But you can't have it all. Just settle for normal pens. Very comfortable handling otherwise, even without captain skills, which makes her a pretty good RN trainer, btw.

 

Ashitaka meanwhile... why? It's an old Amagi stock hull. One of the worst hulls to have ever existed and it was removed for a reason. You are going into T7 battles with a ship that has not great accuracy, AP that is defective and reliant on overpen (same old AP shell type as found on Myogi, ishizuchi and Mutsu, just that most of these have an easier time just overpenning and Ishizuchi typically spams HE at anything with actual armour), pretty much no AA and turns like a brick. It's like if you gave Nagato another gun turret and a few knots of speed and in exchange sucked all the power out of her rifles and her survivability. Something like Kii actually just trades accuracy and broadside protection for AA and torpedoes, but if it hits, it hits like you expect 41 cm guns to hit. Ashitaka meanwhile is entirely dependant on MM putting you up vs T5 and not T9, though likely even a Ryuujou can kill you with ease. I mean, if you think you need to have Ashitaka, sure, but the only IJN premium BB that might be worse is Mikasa (but Mikasa was cheaper and at T2, who cares?). 

But Ashitaka ain´t that bad. She can really do some serious damage with ap. :) I like her :cap_rambo:

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On 21.5.2018 at 11:53 PM, Alex_Connor said:

Kii looks like a lot of fun but it's quite similar to the tech tree Amagi? Can't get enough fast battleships and battlecruisers but one of the big draws to pay real money for the Mutsu was having something unique for the tier.

 

Hood for example is looking tempting, maybe a few months down the line...

 

Heard there are discounts on German BBs so will try and get Gneisenau, seen a few of them tearing around the map making even Mutsu look a bit slow, see if there are any other fast BBs worth grinding or buying.

 

Kii has some similarities to Amagi but also some krass differences.

 

While they look very similar and share a gun layout, Amagi has very good armour including a functional turtleback, whereas Kii has an *incredibly* soft citadel. If you aren't good with angling and timing your turns, you will get punished hard. Also Kii has a slightly worse accuracy that seems to perform especially poor at short ranges where you would expect to hit easily. However over time on short and medium ranges, the gun performance is pretty identical, it's just a few breakout misses that make it look much worse than it is.

 

In return Kii gets INSANE anti-air if you specc it. I would only ever play Kii with full AA build! You get 220 DPS at 7.2 km, which doubles to 440 with manual AA! At 5.1 another 231 kick in. In games with CVs in it, Kii has an exceptional freedom of movement that no other BB  has, not even North Carolina. The result is that surprisingly, despite worse raw power (worse armour and worse guns) I actually got more damage out of my Kii.

 

Unbenannt.thumb.jpg.42e373927215d1f840c64f53859d1bfb.jpg

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Will have to think about the Kii, does sound a bit more different from the Amagi than I was thinking. On paper at least armor and firepower sound more attractive, although I haven't really faced off against high tier carriers much so priorities might change going up the tiers.

 

In the meanwhile just brought the Gneisenau, any thoughts on setup? Have an 11 point captain to put in her, currently specced for preventative maintenance, expert marksman, superintendent and concealment expert, was considering to respec for manual secondaries or fire prevention. Main armament mod and damage control seem pretty clear choices for equipment, after that debating secondaries vs aiming mod, and whether to go for damage control or one of the manoeuvrability mods in the last slot (might be fun brawling).

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30 minutes ago, Alex_Connor said:

Will have to think about the Kii, does sound a bit more different from the Amagi than I was thinking. On paper at least armor and firepower sound more attractive, although I haven't really faced off against high tier carriers much so priorities might change going up the tiers.

 

In the meanwhile just brought the Gneisenau, any thoughts on setup? Have an 11 point captain to put in her, currently specced for preventative maintenance, expert marksman, superintendent and concealment expert, was considering to respec for manual secondaries or fire prevention. Main armament mod and damage control seem pretty clear choices for equipment, after that debating secondaries vs aiming mod, and whether to go for damage control or one of the manoeuvrability mods in the last slot (might be fun brawling).

I'd definetly say manual for secondaries as the tier 4 skill. CE isn't really much use on German bb's I've found.

 

As for equipment, I went for the one that reduces her rudder shift, and I certainly do not regret it.

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11 hours ago, Alex_Connor said:

Will have to think about the Kii, does sound a bit more different from the Amagi than I was thinking. On paper at least armor and firepower sound more attractive, although I haven't really faced off against high tier carriers much so priorities might change going up the tiers.

 

In the meanwhile just brought the Gneisenau, any thoughts on setup? Have an 11 point captain to put in her, currently specced for preventative maintenance, expert marksman, superintendent and concealment expert, was considering to respec for manual secondaries or fire prevention. Main armament mod and damage control seem pretty clear choices for equipment, after that debating secondaries vs aiming mod, and whether to go for damage control or one of the manoeuvrability mods in the last slot (might be fun brawling).

If you want less frustration, Aiming Systems Mod. The main issue most people have with the Gneisenau is that its guns have the infamous "German accuracy", while the ship only has 6 guns. So, it can be quite frustrating. Aiming Systems Mod makes it a bit less frustrating. Still, the ship can be infuriating. On the other hand, Gneisenau is the first German where secondary spec makes any sense. It's T7 (thus gets full use out of Manual Secondary skill) and especially in the top hull, those secondaries shred same tier ships and lower with ease. If you spec IFHE, they even hurt higher tier ships, but that's some serious investment ontop of AFT and Manual Secondaries and I'd not go for it. The secondary range with all modules, skills and flag is 8 km. This is better than non-German secondary builds, but it certainly feels close compared to the 11.3 to 11.6 km you get on Bismarck, FdG and GK later with full secondary spec. I played Gneisenau first time with aiming Systems Mod and around 7 km secondary range, but rebought the ship last weekend and went full secondary. While the guns are not great, after a good few Bismarck games, the handling of the guns feels more familiar and I feel like I know what to expect from them and how to not get frustrated.

 

For captain skills, if you want consistency, CE and FP. If you want secondary spec (maybe to later put the captain on Bismarck), the way to go would be PT, AR, SI/BFT/BoS (pick one) and then AFT, before MS at 14 pt. PM helps your few guns survive more hits, but frankly, PT gives more value, especially given this ship can get some serious focus fire. EM is frankly not needed. Your guns already turn fast, AR pays off way better. Third skill is BFT for faster firing secondaries and more AA (the AA on top hull is top tier for T7), SI, if you want that heal or BoS, if you hate fires. Most people will tell you SI or BFT are better, I'm the scrub though that just takes BoS (later SI ontop), because 36 seconds on a fire (with flag and Damage Control Mod 2) saves me more health upfront and typically, I rarely burn through 4 heals without dying first. Usually, if I end up needing a 5th heal, I would be dead if not for reduced fire duration. Also, if you don't spec FP, BoS is kind of the budget replacement to make fire hurt less.

 

Lastly, don't rush with this ship. It looks like some yolo boat, but it is not. The issue with Gneisenau is, it's got so many things that encourage overextending, yet it gets so little to cope with it. Your secondaries have at most 8 km and your torps have 6 km range. This invites brawling. Indeed, this ship is among the best brawlers in its MM spread and could take on T9 BBs and kill them with the double punch of torpedoes and guns. But the torpedoes have an effective range of not even 2km if you want to guarantee the hits (6 km if you just launch them around corners at unsuspecting people or into smokes at enemies who forget BBs can have torps) and if you go in, you kind of are committed, potentially overcommitted. Gneisenau has good belt armour, but the bow and stern can get overmatched and at close range you can even be citadelled through the bow, which sucks. The hp pool is not like later Germans among best in tier, you are no Nagato. Gneisenau can bully ships with less than 38 cm guns easily, but otherwise needs to watch out and play support with its 6 guns at range until the enemy lines are thinned out and you can go in and 1v1 some enemy BBs for some action-filled glory. It doesn't help though that the ship does 32 knots and turns not too well, thus causing you to be quicker in the fray than you might be comfortable with. Don't hang too far back, just don't be on your own. 14 km is the most you should be away, 10 km is fine (though vs Bismarck, 12 km, because you don't want to eat secondaries). Don't forget that there exist more options for speed than full speed, no speed, reverse and if you really are overextended, turn hard, at full speed. yes, you give broadside, yes you might die. But you will die for sure if you keep charging.

 

Last mod I'd go for damage control. Rudder shift is an option, yes, but I feel like most of the handling issues stem from large turning circle, not glacial rudder shift and the rudder shift is overall manageable.

11 hours ago, lafeel said:

I'd definetly say manual for secondaries as the tier 4 skill. CE isn't really much use on German bb's I've found.

 

As for equipment, I went for the one that reduces her rudder shift, and I certainly do not regret it.

If you prefer to not go secondary build, CE actually allows your ship to disengage, instead of being always spotted due to concealment issues. With secondary build, you basically have to learn how to abuse terrain to make a masked approach.

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Went for CE because consistency sounds good and CE is hard to give up after getting used to BBs with 12-13km detection. Tried secondary mod for 2 games and then went back to aim mod, coming from the Bayern the guns feel very similar so I know what to expect, guns sometimes shoot wide but are equally likely to drop the entire broadside into a pin-point (triple-citadelled a Roon at 15km with just the front turrets, teach him to respect BBs even if they are bottom tier).

 

Think I'm getting the hang of the playstyle required, controlled aggression sounds about right, the ship is definitely fun but I'm not doing as much damage as in the Mutsu or even Bayern. Wondering about how much damage a full secondary build is worth, I mean the guns and torpedoes on Gnesenau are pretty good but you just don't have a lot of barrels and that tells over time. Fire is also definitely a problem, need a higher skilled captain because a smoked up cruiser or even DD can pretty quickly force me into cover.

 

On a side note, you'd be amazed how many people are willing to charge down a Gneisenau head-on instead of bailing out and maybe eating a few shells through the side, even higher tiers who really should know better.

 

Edit: I got a Graf Spee out of a super-container a while back and finally took it out in battle (was waiting for equipment), seriously tempted to just buy the Scharnhorst outright because of how much fun the 28cm guns are. They seem to do really consistent damage against pretty much everything and 9 of them on a faster platform would be amazing.

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