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SeaWolf7

WG... can we please stop this.....

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QfQt5Y1.jpg

 

RJHZPYw.gif

 

 

Sigh.....

 

 

 

 

The reason I don't play Many tier IX OR X games is ...well quite frankly I don't see myself as good enough yet and I don't own a tier X ship because of that.....

YOU on the other hand seem to disagree with me.....and completely ignore my wishes as a customer when I click that tier 8 ship.

Couple of tier IX's....sure ok but the above is just simply not acceptable....

 

 

I know we have had the +2/-2 Discussion before but do you think that its acceptable

A. Not at all

B. depending on ship

c. Depending on Skill level

D. Acceptable up to a certain tier....

 

Imo Due to changes Buffs and nurfs + Power creep over the last year +2/-2 needs to be looked at as I think the gap between two tiers is now more exaggerated/extreme than ever.

 

Your thoughts?

Cheers guys.

Wolf

 

(....But nice to see Mirror MM is working as intended):Smile_sceptic:

 

 

 

 

 

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Stop what? Looks like a perfectly normal T8/9/10 game, the number of radars is about the same and the DD's aren't a silly matchup.

Sure there's only 1 T8 cruiser per side, but they're Edinburgh's which cope better than some T8 cruisers when bottom tiered. T8's are often bottom tier, this isn't a mystery.

 

Personally I'd prefer +/- 1, but that's not likely to change.

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3 minutes ago, BeauNidl3 said:

Stop what? Looks like a perfectly normal T8/9/10 game, the number of radars is about the same and the DD's aren't a silly matchup.

Sure there's only 1 T8 cruiser per side, but they're Edinburgh's which cope better than some T8 cruisers when bottom tiered. T8's are often bottom tier, this isn't a mystery.

 

Personally I'd prefer +/- 1, but that's not likely to change.

Agree with Beau's point, but particularly this bolded part. All tier 8 ships see more than their fare share of tier 10s, but Edinburgh is actually fine. I actually preferred it in tier 10 battles to Neptune, for some reason.

 

Also, if you can hold your own in tier 10 with Edi, grind for that Mino now. Mino + experienced RNCL player = EZ mode.

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It can be annoying if u got MM like this but if WG would go so far that u only face the same tier or +-1 it would get boring over time, and the queue times would get longer as well.......i actually prefer a ship in the mid tiers rn because t10 queue times are just to long for my taste......well they are some of the times.....

btw if u know what ur doing in t8 u can get urself a t10, its not that much of a difference.....

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But you can all feel the OP frustration right? Not nice for players constantly getting placed into tier 10 matches.

 

I'm not saying the MM is wrong, although I tend to side on the 1+ group instead of the 2+ but can live with it at the moment. We no longer just have the US and IJN lines chaps and have plenty of ships to choose from, tier 7 and 8 a prime example. It wouldn't get boring. CV players are used to it (same tier MM). Playing against 1 of only 2 possible CVs to choice from tier 9 is a way of life, so not that bad ay  :cap_haloween:

 

Some people just don't wanna get tier 9-10 ships (cost, upkeep, meta). So their stuck playing against tier 10 ships. Because let's face it, tier 8 is the worst MM in the whole game. 

 

At least it's not like WOT MM, can thank God for that. Would you be saying the NO would be fine in tier 10s all the while?

 

Some people wanna walk before they can run (+1) and other like to sink or swim (+2). No one is wrong.

 

 

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As long as potatoes can play their 10s without losing money despite averaging 15k dmg in their Yamato tier 10 will be oversatuarted and 8s will get f**ked.

 

I've said it plenty of times already - Artificial tiers 11 (9s & 10s) and 12 (only 10s) would immediately fix this, as well as stop 7s from constantly wrecking 5s.

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4 hours ago, SeaWolf7 said:

I know we have had the +2/-2 Discussion before but do you think that its acceptable

A. Not at all

B. depending on ship

c. Depending on Skill level

D. Acceptable up to a certain tier....

By principle: A. not at all,

by factual evidence: B. depending on the ship (DD for example even sometimes do like it...).

Also C. depending on skill level - but as well depending on ship being "fully researched", with advanced captain, with premium consumables, playing in unicum division. All those little details which most forumites tend to forget about when saying that "they are ok with current MM".

 

D. is actually the opposite of what happens - because WG implemented "protected MM" for lowest tiers.

 

Anyway, the biggest problem here was not +2/-2. The problem was distribution. If assembling +/-2 at all it should be a pyramid, with highest tiers represented the least, and lowest tiers being more abundant. 

You can put one strong ship against a few weaker ships - and it is bearable for both sides. If you face one weaker ship vs a few stronger boats - it is simply not fair.

 

But we still face sick games like:

Tier 7 CV + T5-T6 fleet (mostly T5...)  - or the variant 1 tier higher. 

Tier 8 cruiser vs T9-T10 teams (mostly T10)

etc.

 

Or fkups when MM can't equalize divisions and do mirror, so T6 Gaede + Farragut division coupled with some Akatsuki has to fight in domination mode vs 2 T8 Bensons plus Ganja. And this is supposedly "equalized" by some cruisers or BB being 2 tiers lower in the opposite team...

Quote

 

Imo Due to changes Buffs and nurfs + Power creep over the last year +2/-2 needs to be looked at as I think the gap between two tiers is now more exaggerated/extreme than ever.

it is amplified by growing skill disparity - so many total potatoes and some already-trained better-skilled players mixed in. 

 

Quote

 

(....But nice to see Mirror MM is working as intended)

No, it is not. Still mixes nationalities and subclasses (Khaba is NOT mirror to a Jap DD nor to Gearing, Moines is NOT mirror to a Henry etc.). Still fails to count radars, hydros, concealment ranges. Still no "rough" skill separation between CV potatoes, average Steves and the good ones. 

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4 hours ago, SeaWolf7 said:

The reason I don't play Many tier IX OR X games is ...well quite frankly I don't see myself as good enough yet and I don't own a tier X ship because of that.....

YOU on the other hand seem to disagree with me.....and completely ignore my wishes as a customer when I click that tier 8 ship.

Couple of tier IX's....sure ok but the above is just simply not acceptable....

You consider yourself not good enough and you decide to go tier 8 cruiser...? :cap_like:

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4 hours ago, SeaWolf7 said:

I know we have had the +2/-2 Discussion before but do you think that its acceptable

A. Not at all

B. depending on ship

c. Depending on Skill level

D. Acceptable up to a certain tier....

E: Regardless of ship and tier.

 

Seriously, man the hell up. Especially since in this particular case you were in a British cruiser - and these things actually punch up really well thx to them carrying their own smoke. Sure, you'd need to be a star player to actually carry in a match-up like this, but it's hardly a match where you're a canon fodder. You have the DPM to stay relevant, you have the smoke and heal to stay alive, just play cautiously and enjoy your bonuses for fighting higher tier ships.

 

1 hour ago, EdiJo said:

Anyway, the biggest problem here was not +2/-2. The problem was distribution. If assembling +/-2 at all it should be a pyramid, with highest tiers represented the least, and lowest tiers being more abundant. 

I disagree. Making sure that being top tier is even more important (because there's fewer top tier ships in matches) while also making sure people are top tier less often (because there's a restrictive cap on how many top tier ships can be in a match) is a terrible idea - it inflates the advantage of being top tier, inflates the impact of top tier potatoes and creates a situation where "I'm bottom tier 80% of the time" ceases to be a case of selective perception and becomes an MM-enforced fact.

No. Just no.

That being said...

 

1 hour ago, EdiJo said:

depending on ship being "fully researched", with advanced captain, with premium consumables, playing in unicum division. All those little details which most forumites tend to forget about when saying that "they are ok with current MM".

here you actually have a bit of a point and it wouldn't be a bad idea to introduce some countermeasure for that - perhaps a protected MM for the first (insert number based on some estimate how long people need to get a new ship mostly researched) matches in each new non-premium toy.

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34 minutes ago, eliastion said:

I disagree. Making sure that being top tier is even more important (because there's fewer top tier ships in matches) while also making sure people are top tier less often (because there's a restrictive cap on how many top tier ships can be in a match) is a terrible idea - it inflates the advantage of being top tier, inflates the impact of top tier potatoes and creates a situation where "I'm bottom tier 80% of the time" ceases to be a case of selective perception and becomes an MM-enforced fact.

No. Just no.

If you have only 1-2 "over-tiered" ships it is possible to counter them with the more numerous mid-tiered ones. This is not symmetrical to the situation when you put 1-2 lowest tier ships in a team, because they are just food for most of enemies and have much smaller chances vs almost everything.

 

Pyramid actually promotes team play - I liked those rare games when you have such MM. You have to protect your strongest ships with the rest of the team, and this is obvious even to the average Steve ;) 

Currently you most of the time focus on surviving, not playing around your team strong points. 

Still, of course, remains the possibility of skill disparity in those "strong ships" - but this is not at all as a big problem as for single CV or DD currently.

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My comment may be a bit off topic(there is the disclamer :Smile-_tongue:)

, but all this top tier bottom tier talk makes me long for the times when a T2 Umikaze caused horror terror for montys and yammys :cap_haloween:

(then again it may be just me but players were waay better back then) 

 

Thing is, ok i get it your bottom tier, but that shouldnt mean "you dont stand a chance" more of "ok how can i make this match go in my favour", you know a good'ol challenge. :Smile_Default:

But thats just me probably... always random and always stubborn, just because on paper its imposible, well the pleasure/drug of proving it wrong is just too good of a temptation. :cap_rambo:

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3 hours ago, EdiJo said:

If you have only 1-2 "over-tiered" ships it is possible to counter them with the more numerous mid-tiered ones. This is not symmetrical to the situation when you put 1-2 lowest tier ships in a team, because they are just food for most of enemies and have much smaller chances vs almost everything.

 

Pyramid actually promotes team play - I liked those rare games when you have such MM. You have to protect your strongest ships with the rest of the team, and this is obvious even to the average Steve ;) 

Currently you most of the time focus on surviving, not playing around your team strong points. 

Still, of course, remains the possibility of skill disparity in those "strong ships" - but this is not at all as a big problem as for single CV or DD currently.

My perspective might be warped by the fact that I'm mostly a DD player (although I don't feel like my experience in, say, cruisers is that much different) but I know

1. How hard I can wreck everything around me when I end up top tier and there are very few other top tiers

2. How hard it is to make up for bad top-tier players when there's few of them

3. That adjusting your playstyle a bit lets one still have significant impact even as one of the very few low tier ships

 

Long story short:

 - when I'm top tier, I like there to be few top tier ships, this gives me more impact

 - when I'm bottom tier, I like there to be many top tier ships, dispersing responsibility among them instead of getting a coin-toss on whether the 2-3 top-tiers are complete potatoes or not

 

In light of this impression, I'm pretty confident saying that - at least as far as my experience is considered - I don't see how "pyramid" would be advantageous for the low tier ships. Ok, maybe for CVs. Then again, the matches with top tier CV tend to be a pain for everything else - now if they were to also be a "pyramide" where the CV faces very few ships of her own tier? So while being bottom tier CV would be less frustrating, ending up in a match with top tier CV as anything other than CV would be - on average - even more painful than currently.

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8 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

I've said it plenty of times already - Artificial tiers 11 (9s & 10s) and 12 (only 10s) would immediately fix this, as well as stop 7s from constantly wrecking 5s.

 

Very good idea! :cap_like:

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Guys this is not about the Edinburgh......... This isn't even about not being capable or manning up...the result of this game was Good if I can remember. But this post IS NOT ABOUT ME....

The problem is IMO that +2-2 is something that contributes to the disease at the core of this game. I believe that this makes the game worse for us ....not better.

The Trouble is we have all become accustomed (brainwashed) to think that fighting against ships and players who are 2 TIERS HIGHER is the norm...that's absolute....

 

bV0HzHU.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have we all become WG sheep that all bleat out "baaa baaa acceptable MM, acceptable MM" oiSznqR.gif

13 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

normal mm

ahem.....case in point no offence Pete.....

 

perhaps we should remind ourselves why we have Different Tiers in the first place?!!

Or perhaps if you think the above is acceptable have a look at the statistical deference between a MOSKAVA and the Edinburgh or any other tier VIII ship for that matter or perhaps you think they stand a fair chance toe to toe with a Yamato and then remind your self that they are playing against each other in the same [edited]GAME??!

Also we see many complaints about people tiering up to fast and the countless problems and frustrations this causes but your ok about them being thrown into a tier X game by MM when they shouldn't be even @ tier VIII in the first place!!!!:Smile_amazed:

 

10 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

You consider yourself not good enough and you decide to go tier 8 cruiser...? :cap_like:

Im a cruiser player, always have been, I consider tier VIII my ceiling as it were, I don't wan to run around being a hypocrite ruining other peoples games if I don't consider myself capable or not familiar enough with the different mechanics etc. at tier X or trying to understand First how to improve my WR and be consistent in this before I start running around at the top level of this game.

 

11 hours ago, EdiJo said:

. The problem was distribution. If assembling +/-2 at all it should be a pyramid, with highest tiers represented the least, and lowest tiers being more abundant. 

You can put one strong ship against a few weaker ships - and it is bearable for both sides. If you face one weaker ship vs a few stronger boats - it is simply not fair.

 

But we still face sick games like:

Tier 7 CV + T5-T6 fleet (mostly T5...)  - or the variant 1 tier higher. 

Tier 8 cruiser vs T9-T10 teams (mostly T10)

etc.

 

 

Have to agree, what happened to the pyramid system? Its non existent. how can you keep it fair and balance without it especially with the player numbers increasing and in the light of what you pointed out here:

11 hours ago, EdiJo said:

 

it is amplified by growing skill disparity - so many total potatoes and some already-trained better-skilled players mixed in. 

 

+2/-2 will make matter worse.....

 

14 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

But  We no longer just have the US and IJN lines chaps and have plenty of ships to choose from, tier 7 and 8 a prime example. It wouldn't get boring. CV players are used to it (same tier MM). Playing against 1 of only 2 possible CVs to choice from tier 9 is a way of life, so not that bad ay  :cap_haloween:

 

 

 

 

Imo spot on ...we do have enough ships to choose from now...but my fear is that it wg wont allow it because they loose their "I need a premium ship to bridge the gap" metality

I just feel that that with all the above in mind .....

 

CbiPOiJ.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Guys, really sorry for the repeat thread.

I see there is already a +1/-1 or 2 thread out wich started on Tuesday. it didn't appear here yesterday (or somehow I missed it) when I did this one so my apologies. If you feel that matters are already addressed in the previous thread someone from WG is free to close this down.

Regards

Wolf.

 

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55 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

perhaps we should remind ourselves why we have Different Tiers in the first place?!!

Or perhaps if you think the above is acceptable have a look at the statistical deference between a MOSKAVA and the Edinburgh or any other tier VIII ship for that matter or perhaps you think they stand a fair chance toe to toe with a Yamato and then remind your self that they are playing against each other in the same [edited]GAME??!

Also we see many complaints about people tiering up to fast and the countless problems and frustrations this causes but your ok about them being thrown into a tier X game by MM when they shouldn't be even @ tier VIII in the first place!!!!:Smile_amazed:

 

That is no problem. Know your strengths, know the enemies weaknesses.

The biggest problem of this game is not the MM, but people who do NOT know what they can do with their ship and play to its strengths!

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58 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

Guys this is not about the Edinburgh......... This isn't even about not being capable or manning up...the result of this game was Good if I can remember. But this post IS NOT ABOUT ME....

The problem is IMO that +2-2 is something that contributes to the disease at the core of this game. I believe that this makes the game worse for us ....not better.

The Trouble is we have all become accustomed (brainwashed) to think that fighting against ships and players who are 2 TIERS HIGHER is the norm...that's absolute....

 

Im a cruiser player, always have been, I consider tier VIII my ceiling as it were, I don't wan to run around being a hypocrite ruining other peoples games if I don't consider myself capable or not familiar enough with the different mechanics etc. at tier X or trying to understand First how to improve my WR and be consistent in this before I start running around at the top level of this game.

Disregarding the screenshot in the OP, sure there's a case for +-1 mm, but it's not needed imo. Fighting against ships 2 tiers lower isn't that much of an issue. Artificial tier 11 and 12 could be a solution if WG wanted to change it. The biggest issue imo is for the tier 8 cruisers which in some cases just don't do well in tier 10 games. Which is why I made that earlier point. If I want a nice cruiser game, I choose tier 7 or 10, not 8.

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3 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Disregarding the screenshot in the OP, sure there's a case for +-1 mm, but it's not needed imo. Fighting against ships 2 tiers lower isn't that much of an issue.

W h y ?  It is, by definition!  And sure, the "issue" is much smaller for very good player in fully specced boat, with fully trained captain and tons of golden consumables loaded. Often in a division with equally good friends. As it was mentioned: tiers are here for a reason. 

So far WG greed (stick banging poor players to grind faster towards "safe" T9/T10) prevails over making game fair & nice for most of the player base. 

3 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Artificial tier 11 and 12 could be a solution if WG wanted to change it.

This is not a solution for every tier. Being 2 tiers lower is really sick in significant part of ships, especially when not fully grinded yet. 

3 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

The biggest issue imo is for the tier 8 cruisers which in some cases just don't do well in tier 10 games.

Tier 7 BB don't do well in T9 games. T6 CV don't do well in T8 games. T5 cruisers don't do well in T7 games. And so on, so forth. Half of ships suck when put vs +2 tier opponents. You may not play most of them, or you can be good enough to find a way around it - yet the problem is still there for most players.

3 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Which is why I made that earlier point. If I want a nice cruiser game, I choose tier 7 or 10, not 8.

Really? Is T7 so nice for cruisers? Maybe only because you can club T5 more frequently?... because playing vs T9 CV, accurate T9 BB or way stronger T9 cruisers is certainly not "nice". :Smile_sceptic:

And why choose only selected tiers to play "nice"? I want nice games in all my ships!

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19 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

As long as potatoes can play their 10s without losing money despite averaging 15k dmg in their Yamato tier 10 will be oversatuarted and 8s will get f**ked.

 

I've said it plenty of times already - Artificial tiers 11 (9s & 10s) and 12 (only 10s) would immediately fix this, as well as stop 7s from constantly wrecking 5s.

Yea. High tier economics need a reform. Idiots doing nothing should be punished creditwise very hard. Very decent games should just break even.

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19 minutes ago, EdiJo said:

W h y ?  It is, by definition!  And sure, the "issue" is much smaller for very good player in fully specced boat, with fully trained captain and tons of golden consumables loaded. Often in a division with equally good friends. As it was mentioned: tiers are here for a reason.

You need to be a very good player, have a fully specced boat, fully trained captain and a ton of consumable to have success against ships 2 tiers lower?

20 minutes ago, EdiJo said:

Really? Is T7 so nice for cruisers? Maybe only because you can club T5 more frequently?...

..yes?

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2 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

You need to be a very good player, have a fully specced boat, fully trained captain and a ton of consumable to have success against ships 2 tiers lower?

No, I wrote that the "issue" - when playing vs opponents 2 tiers higher - is much smaller for very good player in fully specced boat, with fully trained captain and tons of golden consumables loaded. Hello?

2 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

..yes?

So this is not a good reason to call it "nice despite +/-2", because this just shifts the problem to poor T5 which can't club T3 anymore, right?

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57 minutes ago, EdiJo said:

So far WG greed (stick banging poor players to grind faster towards "safe" T9/T10) prevails over making game fair & nice for most of the player base. 

And yet the most popular tier remains to be 8, despite it not being "safe", just the opposite - it's one of the tiers that tend to suffer from bad MM. Almost as if getting uptiered wasn't nearly as big of a problem as some people like to claim.

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5 minutes ago, eliastion said:

And yet the most popular tier remains to be 8, despite it not being "safe", just the opposite - it's one of the tiers that tend to suffer from bad MM. Almost as if getting uptiered wasn't nearly as big of a problem as some people like to claim.

I lost my interest in digging in fragmented sparse WoWS data, for some reason kept confidential by WG, about a year ago - and I don't intend to specify here tons of reasons which could cause "T8 popularity" if at all it is true for ships relevant to this topic.

 

Yet it is obviously way too far going to assume that "many people playing tier 8" implicates "getting uptiered is not a big of a problem". :cap_old:

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playing people 2 tiers higher in skill and ships 2 tiers higher/superior is not normal and its not balanced, its anything but.....

 

Just because we have been accustomed to it doesn't mean its right. This game has evolved and changed allot since CB and the player base is till growing... The MM now needs to reflect this

Having +1/-1 would only make things fairer. Also I don't understand why people think longer queues? (surely less time in queue if finding only -1+1?)

 

And what about the new player base? How many people in the last 6 months have you seen raging about this and that, to which we all reply... "learn the game... git gud you don't understand yet etc etc....DROP DOWN A COUPLE OF TIERS  (yeah cos that one hardly ever comes up right?:Smile_sceptic:)..perhaps the reason they are mostly raging is because they just been shoved 2 tiers above their learning comfort zone ( after going up the tiers too quickly anyway) and promptly annihilated in the first 5 mins of game. Yeah that is to some degree their fault but -2/+2 only Magnifies these issues IMO

 

 

 

Tier 8 is popular yes small part being because its where most premium ships are found. How many premium ships are there at tier 8? more than any other tier?

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