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Sedarof

Very harsh in match TK penalty

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Heyo,

 

TL;DR: One Rogue torp Team damage caused my ship destruction, which in consequence lost the game for everyone.


I just had a match where one rogue long range torp hit a friendly Cruiser and damaged him for a bit over 9k... I tried to warn him from my long range torps... well it didn't work and my most left torps hit him.
I said I'm sorry, he said "No problem". I thought, okey, well I'm pink, get a credits/EXP penalty and have to be additionally careful for the next few matches.

Well, it wasn't over i just realized a few seconds later...
My HP was ticking down in crazy speed and I got sank by the TK penalty system. In consequence, we lost the fight, for sure partially because I was the only remaining DD who could have scouted, and I was in a great position.
EVERY player in my team got additionally punished by the TK system, which is in place to PROTECT teammates in the first place.

What do you guys think, is this harsh penalty okey or actually counterproductive? I personally would support a system where it requires 2 actions before in-match penalty are taken. 
Something like this:

First time your action makes damage (1 torp, 1 salvo, large ram etc) you get pink, and get a (much larger if it happened in other matches too) EXP and Credits penalty.
Second time you cause TK damage (2+ torp/salvo), you get removed from the match. IMMEDIATELY! cause the few seconds would have allowed me to kill even more if I would have been on a Team Killing spree.


Additional info: I got NO Credits/EXP penalty at all! And only 2 redemption matches (pink status, so every mode allowed)

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I know it really sucked, but I do support the harsh TK penalty. Just take more time to consider where your allies are and where they might be going next time. 

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You got mirror damage because the torp flooded your ally and he was taking damage from that which reflected back on you.

 

Not a particularily harsh penalty if you ask me. But rest assured, WG seemingly has the same opinion about friendly fire as you and won't be punishing you with mirror damage on the same game you went pink, they think that would be just unfair for the team.

 

Instead the only guy getting punished is the ally you torped suffering the flooding from which he might sink. Totally much fairer to only lose this guy who was getting hit by his allies ...

 

 

If you find any sarcasm in my comment, you can keep it.

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5 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

You got mirror damage because the torp flooded your ally and he was taking damage from that which reflected back on you.

 

Not a particularily harsh penalty if you ask me. But rest assured, WG seemingly has the same opinion about friendly fire as you and won't be punishing you with mirror damage on the same game you went pink, they think that would be just unfair for the team.

 

Instead the only guy getting punished is the ally you torped suffering the flooding from which he might sink. Totally much fairer to only lose this guy who was getting hit by his allies ...

 

Nope, it was more. I caused total of 8 thousand something, and received about 12k dmg. Also mirroring damage is stupid.... because as BB you then can kill a friendly DD and get only little damage penalty, while as DD you die with every single torp that goes rogue...

I totally agree, that TK should be punished harshly. BUT the [edited]why you punish someone in-match after one single hick-up instead of out of the match, with credits/EXP.... Like I said, I got ZERO penalty in Credits, EXP and only 2 matches on probation, all not really much...


Also, I'm always a bit annoyed about ppl driving into longrange torps... It's really hard to know always where ppl go.. I mean a DD can drive through 50% of the map in the time of my torps doing the same distance, and in this time (for about 1 min) you know exactly where the [edited]my torps are... Maybe there could also be a diminishing factor in penalties depending on the torps time in the water... So short range torps get very harsh penalty, while long range torps get lower penalty... since how the [edited]can you predict the movements of stupid wows players 1 min ahead of time?

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Look where you throw your torps! Your Torpedo your responsibilty!

I also often consider not repairing the flood (even if I could) until that idiot secoundline torped is sunk.

Especially infuriating are those special guys that hit me with their secound torpwave that they launched AFTER I dodged the first one.

No this penalty is not too harsh and should also be punished ingame right after the teamdamage. Because basically the playerbase became so stupid, they wouldn't realize how bad their actions are if not followed by immediate and severe consequences. (see basly played BBs that only get punished for playing bad when the match is already almost over)

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You guys are absolutely missing my point honestly.... 

My problem is that my TEAM gets punished. Not I got punished! I said sorry to the cruiser, he said, it was okey.£

And then my TEAM gets basically disqualified because of MY action. You can remove every single credits or  EXP when I fuckup a match because of my torps (even though I still stand to my thesis that ppl driving into longrange torps are stupid)
But NEVER PUNISH THE TEAM for TK! You could introduce a vote, tho remove TK if you want... So the Team has the decision if you are okey with the TK or not... but not automatically cause a defeat of a team

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3 minutes ago, Sedarof said:

You guys are absolutely missing my point honestly.... 

My problem is that my TEAM gets punished. Not I got punished! I said sorry to the cruiser, he said, it was okey.£

And then my TEAM gets basically disqualified because of MY action. You can remove every single credits or  EXP when I fuckup a match because of my torps (even though I still stand to my thesis that ppl driving into longrange torps are stupid)
But NEVER PUNISH THE TEAM for TK! You could introduce a vote, tho remove TK if you want... So the Team has the decision if you are okey with the TK or not... but not automatically cause a defeat of a team

Happens to all of us. I would be lying if I said I never landed a torp on an ally accidentally. Then again you deserve pretty much everything the game throws at you for it. Torps are the single most powerful weapon in the game if they hit. A full shima salvo has a potential damage of over 345k. If you decide to wield this power, you also decide to take the responsibility coming along with it. 

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It's good that in this case it was an accident which you apologized for and the torpedo-ee accepted, but the system is in place to punish deliberate teamkillers just as much as it is to deter carelessness. Given that the automated system has no way to distinguish between the two, it's better to excessively punish the latter than to be too lenient to the former.

 

At the end of the day accidental torpedoes are 100% avoidable and can have a huge negative impact on the teammate on the receiving end of them, they're something which should be heavily dissuaded with harsh punishments. If this is your first offence then it won't take long to undo and you'll hopefully be much more careful in future, if this isn't your first offence then you clearly haven't learned and is evidence for the need for harsh and upscaling punishments.

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4 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Happens to all of us. I would be lying if I said I never landed a torp on an ally accidentally. Then again you deserve pretty much everything the game throws at you for it. Torps are the single most powerful weapon in the game if they hit. A full shima salvo has a potential damage of over 345k. If you decide to wield this power, you also decide to take the responsibility coming along with it. 

Again... Throw it at ME not my team! My team, especially the guy I hit,  already got punished... so why punish them further... Delete all my contribution to the game, remove all credits/EXP income. But DO NOT take away the the ability for the team to still make the best out of the situation. In the mentioned game, we lost, because i got sunk. If I was there, we might have been able to win, which would have been a lot better for anyone on the team, including the guy I hit...

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11 minutes ago, Sedarof said:

You guys are absolutely missing my point honestly.... 

My problem is that my TEAM gets punished. Not I got punished! I said sorry to the cruiser, he said, it was okey.£

And then my TEAM gets basically disqualified because of MY action. You can remove every single credits or  EXP when I fuckup a match because of my torps (even though I still stand to my thesis that ppl driving into longrange torps are stupid)
But NEVER PUNISH THE TEAM for TK! You could introduce a vote, tho remove TK if you want... So the Team has the decision if you are okey with the TK or not... but not automatically cause a defeat of a team

 

The problem is, in your case it might have been unfair, but if you were a grade A a**hole, there would be nothing stopping you deliberately wiping out half your team. The reflected and amplified reflected damage exist because without it a small number of players would ruin games far worse than the loss of their last DD.

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17 minutes ago, Sedarof said:

Also, I'm always a bit annoyed about ppl driving into longrange torps... It's really hard to know always where ppl go.. I mean a DD can drive through 50% of the map in the time of my torps doing the same distance, and in this time (for about 1 min) you know exactly where the [edited]my torps are... Maybe there could also be a diminishing factor in penalties depending on the torps time in the water... So short range torps get very harsh penalty, while long range torps get lower penalty... since how the [edited]can you predict the movements of stupid wows players 1 min ahead of time?

 

There isn't a single longrange torpedo in the game that's slower than ships.

No ally will every ever just sail into your torps unless you threw those torps from second line on a trajectory that will intersect with their course. Ergo, if you don't launch your torps where allies could run into them, no one will EVER get hit by them.

 

It's really not that bloody hard to understand.

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1 minute ago, VC381 said:

 

The problem is, in your case it might have been unfair, but if you were a grade A a**hole, there would be nothing stopping you deliberately wiping out half your team. The reflected and amplified reflected damage exist because without it a small number of players would ruin games far worse than the loss of their last DD.

That is why I would say it would make sense to make it a 2-Action thing. If I damage ppl once, I get no in-match penalty (you can give out of match penalty as much as you want). And as soon as there is a second action towards TK, you get immediately killed, without ticking down HP. So you punish deliberate TK guys, but not accidents. If I would have been an A***, I would take more than 1 Action to TK, not just 1. That's the reason why I came up with the formula: One is nothing, 2 is far too much.

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Just now, Sedarof said:

That is why I would say it would make sense to make it a 2-Action thing. If I damage ppl once, I get no in-match penalty (you can give out of match penalty as much as you want). And as soon as there is a second action towards TK, you get immediately killed, without ticking down HP. So you punish deliberate TK guys, but not accidents. If I would have been an A***, I would take more than 1 Action to TK, not just 1. That's the reason why I came up with the formula: One is nothing, 2 is far too much.

 

But you did do 2 actions (sort of). The torp hit made you pink. The flooding is what reflected and sank you.

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2 minutes ago, VC381 said:

 

But you did do 2 actions (sort of). The torp hit made you pink. The flooding is what reflected and sank you.

Precisely.

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3 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

 

There isn't a single longrange torpedo in the game that's slower than ships.

No ally will every ever just sail into your torps unless you threw those torps from second line on a trajectory that will intersect with their course. Ergo, if you don't launch your torps where allies could run into them, no one will EVER get hit by them.

 

It's really not that bloody hard to understand.

Yes, but 10km with 59knots and a DD driving 40km/hr, still covers 50% of most maps...

If you don't launch torps where a friendly could ever potentially maybe drive to, then you basically just don't fire torps for the most part of time... Especially that most fights usually happen in a limited area. You are right you gotta be carefull, but really making sure that no DD could suddenly take a surprise turn and then get hit by a long range torp is just stupid. 
 

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5 minutes ago, VC381 said:

 

But you did do 2 actions (sort of). The torp hit made you pink. The flooding is what reflected and sank you.

Still, 1 action, 1 mistake. Just 2 outcomes... And that is what all is about.

Anyways, all I was complaining about is that my team got a huge punishment while I didn't really... Still received okey Credits/EXP

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4 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

So then how would you like to get punished without it hurting your team?

REMOVE ALL credits/EXP for the game would be a start. It's basically this easy...

Maybe even add some EXP penalty that you have to redeem until you can earn EXP again.

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2 minutes ago, Sedarof said:

REMOVE ALL credits/EXP for the game would be a start. It's basically this easy...

But then, after you got pink there would be no point in you playing in that match....what would be the point in staying in the round if you're not going to be rewarded for it. You would lose a teammate much faster this way

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4 minutes ago, Sedarof said:

Still, 1 action, 1 mistake. Just 2 outcomes... And that is what all is about.

Anyways, all I was complaining about is that my team got a huge punishment while I didn't really... Still received okey Credits/EXP

 

Then how do you define 1 action? Do you get no immediate penalty for wiping out a full health friendly BB on purpose, because it's only one action? Then you can go ahead and do it again and only then get kicked?

 

I get that in your case you might have been a competent guy and your team got punished more by losing you. But most of the time if someone friendly fires they are either careless or deliberate, and their team is better off with the liability removed ASAP before they can cause any more harm.

 

EDIT: and there is an XP penalty but those kind of punishments don't work on people who are trolling on purpose.

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Just now, domen3 said:

But then, after you got pink there would be no point in you playing in that match....what would be the point in staying in the math if you're not going to be rewarded for it. You would lose a teammate much faster this way

Well then you can add an additional penalty to prevent additional TKs while giving players like my the chance to make it up for the mistakes and win the match.

And If someone takes another TK action, just pull the second layer of the penalty and ban him from random matches...

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9 minutes ago, Sedarof said:

REMOVE ALL credits/EXP for the game would be a start. It's basically this easy...

Maybe even add some EXP penalty that you have to redeem until you can earn EXP again.

The reason for reflecting team damage is to avoid people killing multiple blues (one notorious example that springs to mind was a shima that was always sailing behind his team and constantly dropping 20km torps on them).

 

By not doing this anymore you will also hurt your team. And you'll hurt them even more imo. 

 

So no, it's not that easy. 

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1 hour ago, JSJooste said:

I know it really sucked, but I do support the harsh TK penalty. Just take more time to consider where your allies are and where they might be going next time. 

 

Says someone who has apparently never been in a DD knife-fight with Torps being fired everywhere as you to stay alive and seen a 10km torp hit a friendly 6km+ later :Smile_teethhappy:

 

Mistakes will always be made but the system is very poor at detecting "deliberate" from "stupid" from "accidental" and only something like an in-game pop-up with "Do you want to inflict reflected damage against the player who hurt you?" or  a game mechanic change like "if a torp passes within 0.2km of an enemy it can't damage a friendly" would help, but they're not a great solution and very clunky to add too.

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5 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

The reason for reflecting team damage is to avoid people killing multiple blues (one notorious example that springs to mind was a shima that was always sailing behind his team and constantly dropping 20km torps on them).

 

By not doing this anymore you will also hurt your team. And you'll hurt them even more imo. 

 

So no, it's not that easy. 

Well, this again is only possible with the 2 action principle... If you make two "mouse clicks" that cause friendly damage, you get removed immediately. If you only make one "mouse click" you get nothing.

Reflecting damage is kinda stupid, since torps are powerful and hard to manage but carried on very low hp ships. While BB can easily lose 15k hp, therefore kill a whole DD and go further easily... If reflecting, it should be in %...

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19 minutes ago, Sedarof said:

If you don't launch torps where a friendly could ever potentially maybe drive to, then you basically just don't fire torps for the most part of time...
 

 

Well, if you fire torps from the 'front line' away from team mates you won't hit a team mate.

 

If you've flanked the enemy and fire torps back in the direction that your team mates are in then you need to be very careful when doing so.

 

A replay of this battle would be helpful to understand what actually happened in the game.

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