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Imperial Japanese Navy Aviation Cruiser Suzuya 鈴谷 Tier 9 Premium Proposal

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HvpmnG2.png

 

This image shows a proposed design to convert Suzuya and Kumano (Both Mogami-Class Heavy Cruisers) into Aviation Cruisers to fill the gaps left by the Japanese defeat at Midway. 

 

SUZUYA 鈴谷 TIER 9 JAPANESE CRUISER

 

Suzuya is a FreeXP Premium akin to Nelson, Missouri and Musashi. She costs 750,000 Free XP and 1 Credit to buy. Suzuya's armament consists of 6 20.3cm Main battery guns located on the front of the ship in 3 turrets. Suzuya, being an Aviation Cruiser, carries Aircraft. She Carries not only a Spotting Plane and a Catapult fighter that can be launched from her Catapults, she carries Light Bomber and Light Torpedo Bomber Floatplanes. These planes function similarly to Catapault Fighters, automatically attacking the closest target in range with Bombs and Torpedoes. Suzuya has two choices of bombs available to her, either 2 x 250 kg High Explosive Bombs per each of her Bomber planes, or a heavy 500kg Armour Piercing Bomb. Her Light Torpedo Planes carry 4 Torpedoes, however deal less damage and will always be dropped by the plane facing away from Suzuya (to prevent your own torpedoes hitting you). After dropping their ordinance, Bombers will return to the Cruiser. If they were not shot down, you will regain the charge you used. Suzuya does not gain additional Planes with the Superintendent Skill, she does, however, gain an additional Heal.  

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[IDDQD]
Alpha Tester
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surelly not until problems with IJN Tone are fixed

sorry

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Supertester
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I have hope the CV re-work will have an interface that is suitable for direct plane control on aviation cruisers such as Tone and this one. Still, great proposal with the auto-attacking bombers on separate consumables!

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If the planes only carried AP/HE bombs and no torpedoes, wouldn't it be fairly easy to launch lets say 1 group with 3 fighters and 2 groups consisting of 4 bombers and be able to control them like we control "Manual AA" and "Manual Secondaries" by marking the planes or ships we want to damage.

 

So you can launch the planes by keystrokes like today, then they circle around you at a fixed radius and if you mark a target the planes can swoop out and damage it at a set maximum distance then return for reloading which takes longer than CVs due to being float-planes. 

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16 minutes ago, affie said:

If the planes only carried AP/HE bombs and no torpedoes, wouldn't it be fairly easy to launch lets say 1 group with 3 fighters and 2 groups consisting of 4 bombers and be able to control them like we control "Manual AA" and "Manual Secondaries" by marking the planes or ships we want to damage.

 

So you can launch the planes by keystrokes like today, then they circle around you at a fixed radius and if you mark a target the planes can swoop out and damage it at a set maximum distance then return for reloading which takes longer than CVs due to being float-planes. 

Guess it's kinda easy, just only allow auto-drop and you can only start them with setting one target and this target is fix

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20 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Guess it's kinda easy, just only allow auto-drop and you can only start them with setting one target and this target is fix

Yes, and if you use autodrop similar to Graf Zeppelin has, i.e. a rather tight circle, then you wont have to worry about what angle to drop from.

 

You shall be able to set a new target I think, as long as they haven't dropped, make them unable to control like when landing/takeoff today on CV about 5 s before dropping and untill they have landed and started the reload/cooldown.

 

The question is how many planes you shall have, some reserves in some hangar or what you see is what you get?

 

 

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21 minutes ago, affie said:

Yes, and if you use autodrop similar to Graf Zeppelin has, i.e. a rayher tight circle, then you wont have to worry about what angle to drop from.

 

You shall be able to set a new target I think, as long as they haven't dropped, make them unable to control like when landing/takeoff today on CV about 5 s before dropping and untill they have landed and started the reload/cooldown.

 

The question is how many planes you shall have, some reserves in some hangar or what you see is what you get?

 

 

When you're able to set new targets, you could scout with them. That shouldn't be possible

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10 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

When you're able to set new targets, you could scout with them. That shouldn't be possible

That depends on what you set as maximim distance to target. Maybe the planes maximum range are the ships base air detectability range cause the planes doesn't want to lose sight of their seaplane-cruiser. 

 

For Mogami-class this would be 8.49 km and within this radius you can change targets and scout if you have multiple targets within your aircraft range bubble.  

 

This would place the seaplane-cruiser in between catapult fighter carrying cruisers and proper CVs. With the possibility to scout the 8.49 km radius if enemies are within it to target manually since you wont be able to target your allies (the later to avoid being able to patrol areas between you and allies).

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2 minutes ago, affie said:

That depends on what you set as maximim distance to target. Maybe the planes maximum range are the ships base air detectability range cause the planes doesn't want to lose sight of their seaplane-cruiser. 

 

For Mogami-class this would be 8.49 km and within this radius you can change targets and scout if you have multiple targets within your aircraft range bubble.  

 

This would place the seaplane-cruiser in between catapult fighter carrying cruisers and proper CVs. With the possibility to scout the 8.49 km radius if enemies are within it to target manually since you wont be able to target your allies (the later to avoid being able to patrol areas between you and allies).

 

Scouting dds at 11 km is pretty strong, it would be like a permanent radar ;)

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15 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Scouting dds at 11 km is pretty strong, it would be like a permanent radar ;)

I know what you mean, and I hate that magical RADAR when playing DDs.

 

But that DD must be near another ship that is detected to even send planes there, and if the planes are to fly back if targets is undetected then you will need alot of luck and skill to be able to scout with your planes and it is only the bombers you can send towards ships and they return as soon as they have dropped their bombs, fighters can only be sent towards other planes.

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nvm, still tier 7-8 material

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On 5/15/2018 at 6:22 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Scouting dds at 11 km is pretty strong, it would be like a permanent radar ;)

Just that save for killing the radar ship, you cannot kill the radar. And DD with decent AA can kill floatplanes. As can any cruiser or BB with decent AA and god forbid if a carrier just strafes them down for a few free kills on the way to KotS achievement.

On 5/15/2018 at 6:19 PM, affie said:

For Mogami-class this would be 8.49 km and within this radius you can change targets and scout if you have multiple targets within your aircraft range bubble.  

If you want to kill a target in line of sight that close of your cruiser, use your guns or ship torpedoes. You aren't going to delete much with your few floatplane bombers, not even DDs.

 

And disregarding the gimmicky and likely not too effective planes, the ship is a T8 cruiser known for garbage armour with the firepower of a T6 at T9. This ship would look bad even on T8, trading 40% of Mogami's dpm (if people use the 203 mm Mogami. IFHE 155 mm Mogami obviously beats it even harder) for a few autodropping planes. Frankly, for giving up that much firepower, these planes ought to actually be worth something beyond autodropping.

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11 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Just that save for killing the radar ship, you cannot kill the radar. And DD with decent AA can kill floatplanes. As can any cruiser or BB with decent AA and god forbid if a carrier just strafes them down for a few free kills on the way to KotS achievement.

If you want to kill a target in line of sight that close of your cruiser, use your guns or ship torpedoes. You aren't going to delete much with your few floatplane bombers, not even DDs.

 

And disregarding the gimmicky and likely not too effective planes, the ship is a T8 cruiser known for garbage armour with the firepower of a T6 at T9. This ship would look bad even on T8, trading 40% of Mogami's dpm (if people use the 203 mm Mogami. IFHE 155 mm Mogami obviously beats it even harder) for a few autodropping planes. Frankly, for giving up that much firepower, these planes ought to actually be worth something beyond autodropping.

If you say so, let's add more planes for the fun for dds!

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3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If you say so, let's add more planes for the fun for dds!

You mean to help those T8-10 DDs get more plane kills? I mean, these are tiers where you get matched against Fletcher, Gearing, Grozovoi, Akizuki and the super-ducks. These are tiers where autodropping a DD is pretty much a waste of your time and I'd rather you as a cruiser go waste a couple seconds to designate me as a target and launch those planes before shooting with your abysmal dpm than actually blasting me out of the water with a decent gun setup.

 

To make an Aviation cruiser (or battleship) worth it, you'd need to strike a balance between how much firepower you give up and how much utility the planes have, especially in mirrored MM of CVs, where this ship could very well be the autodropper with anaemic dpm and no real use if given too few tools or be a quasi CV in a CV-free match if given too much control over the planes. It's why it'd be better to not implement such designs until WG actually reworked CV design and knows how to make seaplane aircraft other than spotter/fighter worth a damn.

 

Also, worth noting, there's absolutely no reason to put Suzuya at T9 like this. Suzuya herself was never made an aviation cruiser (Mogami was) and putting a T8 cruiser at T9 with a crappy setup and some silly floatplanes to justify the uptiering is just not going to work out. At that point, Tone should be the go-to pic, for a ship that actually was finished as aviation cruiser and which has 4 twin turrets, retaining a more competitive dpm on the guns. It still would need WG to figure out a proper way to implement these hybrids.

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1 minute ago, Riselotte said:

You mean to help those T8-10 DDs get more plane kills? I mean, these are tiers where you get matched against Fletcher, Gearing, Grozovoi, Akizuki and the super-ducks. These are tiers where autodropping a DD is pretty much a waste of your time and I'd rather you as a cruiser go waste a couple seconds to designate me as a target and launch those planes before shooting with your abysmal dpm than actually blasting me out of the water with a decent gun setup.

 

To make an Aviation cruiser (or battleship) worth it, you'd need to strike a balance between how much firepower you give up and how much utility the planes have, especially in mirrored MM of CVs, where this ship could very well be the autodropper with anaemic dpm and no real use if given too few tools or be a quasi CV in a CV-free match if given too much control over the planes. It's why it'd be better to not implement such designs until WG actually reworked CV design and knows how to make seaplane aircraft other than spotter/fighter worth a damn.

 

Also, worth noting, there's absolutely no reason to put Suzuya at T9 like this. Suzuya herself was never made an aviation cruiser (Mogami was) and putting a T8 cruiser at T9 with a crappy setup and some silly floatplanes to justify the uptiering is just not going to work out. At that point, Tone should be the go-to pic, for a ship that actually was finished as aviation cruiser and which has 4 twin turrets, retaining a more competitive dpm on the guns. It still would need WG to figure out a proper way to implement these hybrids.

And you get matched with all the german dds, IJN torp dds, and Pan-Asia. Also the other dds have to specc aa, what is not always the case. There will be more than 50% of the dds, who will get rekt, and also the aa dds will get rekt, when they get one good bb salvo. Totally worth for a squad of planes, if you lose them.

 

I never said, that I want it like that. My suggestion was, that those planes are not able to scout actively, set only one target and sent them out. That would be possible even now without making it imbalanced. One squad dive bombers are not that op. Scouting would be op.

 

I don't care, which cruiser you would add, Mogami, Tone, Oyodo, or this one. I'm just talking about the mechanic.

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31 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And you get matched with all the german dds, IJN torp dds, and Pan-Asia. Also the other dds have to specc aa, what is not always the case. There will be more than 50% of the dds, who will get rekt, and also the aa dds will get rekt, when they get one good bb salvo. Totally worth for a squad of planes, if you lose them.

 

I never said, that I want it like that. My suggestion was, that those planes are not able to scout actively, set only one target and sent them out. That would be possible even now without making it imbalanced. One squad dive bombers are not that op. Scouting would be op.

 

I don't care, which cruiser you would add, Mogami, Tone, Oyodo, or this one. I'm just talking about the mechanic.

If you only want to spot, Ibuki has a spotter plane, you know. And those DDs with less AA are typically not going to shoot that one down easily, while those with good AA would farm a bomber squad too.

 

The issue is, for spotting, a bomber squadron is not any better than double spotter plane (it even may be worse due to air visibility limitations) and you give up a lot of firepower for it, losing 2 out of 5 turrets on a Mogami. Tone still loses 1. Ooyodo was not an aviation cruiser. It had seaplanes, but mostly for scouting and its utter stats make it ill-suited for upper tier. That ship is practically worse than Huang He.

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5 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

If you only want to spot, Ibuki has a spotter plane, you know. And those DDs with less AA are typically not going to shoot that one down easily, while those with good AA would farm a bomber squad too.

 

The issue is, for spotting, a bomber squadron is not any better than double spotter plane (it even may be worse due to air visibility limitations) and you give up a lot of firepower for it, losing 2 out of 5 turrets on a Mogami. Tone still loses 1. Ooyodo was not an aviation cruiser. It had seaplanes, but mostly for scouting and its utter stats make it ill-suited for upper tier. That ship is practically worse than Huang He.

Ibuki Spotter planes fly 7-8 km circles (or can be send to the dd)?

AA dds shot a bomber squad in 1 second on max range?

DDs without good aa can turn instantly and move faster than planes, when planes approach them?

 

I really didn't know, that dds are always happy about CV matches, when they love planes so much

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10 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Ibuki Spotter planes fly 7-8 km circles (or can be send to the dd)?

AA dds shot a bomber squad in 1 second on max range?

DDs without good aa can turn instantly and move faster than planes, when planes approach them?

 

I really didn't know, that dds are always happy about CV matches, when they love planes so much

DDs already don't like spotter planes if they are vulnerable to them.

DD AA can actually shred carrier planes quite fast, especially defAA with its special x4 modifier.

DDs without good AA (especially Japanese) typically avoid getting that close. Given you cannot send your bomber squad after an unspotted target, it isn't any better than a spotting plane which those DDs vulnerable do try to avoid anyway and if not caught offguard they manage to do that usually.

 

DDs don't like CV matches, but typically that also is because DDs who don't have the necessary AA can just have a fighter squad flying overhead, spotting them the entire match, even if the CV is on the other side of the map, not just 8 km away. And the DDs best equipped to deal with spotter planes also can shoot down carrier planes, making it potentially too costly to try keep them spotted for extented periods.

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1 minute ago, Riselotte said:

DDs already don't like spotter planes if they are vulnerable to them.

DD AA can actually shred carrier planes quite fast, especially defAA with its special x4 modifier.

DDs without good AA (especially Japanese) typically avoid getting that close. Given you cannot send your bomber squad after an unspotted target, it isn't any better than a spotting plane which those DDs vulnerable to try to avoid anyway and if not caught offguard they manage to do that usually.

 

DDs don't like CV matches, but typically that also is because DDs who don't have the necessary AA can just have a fighter squad flying overhead, spotting them the entire match, even if the CV is on the other side of the map, not just 8 km away. And the DDs best equipped to deal with spotter planes also can shoot down carrier planes, making it potentially too costly to try keep them spotted for extented periods.

I would sent the bomber squad to a BB, when my planes fly above a dd I would send them around between targets.

Comments like "DDs without good AA (especially Japanese) typically avoid getting that close." are unrealistic. Because everyone always tries to his best. CVs try to avoid losing planes, but they do. CA/CLs try not to get citadells. But they take them. DDs try to not get spooted. but they get spotted.

Almost every game, the dd is moving towards a cap. Avoiding or not, with planes you will spot them. And the aa dds are only a few, there are way more non aa dds

 

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1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I would sent the bomber squad to a BB, when my planes fly above a dd I would send them around between targets.

Comments like "DDs without good AA (especially Japanese) typically avoid getting that close." are unrealistic. Because everyone always tries to his best. CVs try to avoid losing planes, but they do. CA/CLs try not to get citadells. But they take them. DDs try to not get spooted. but they get spotted.

Almost every game, the dd is moving towards a cap. Avoiding or not, with planes you will spot them. And the aa dds are only a few, there are way more non aa dds

 

Alright, park your T9 Mogami 8 km away from a BB and tell me how there is a DD inbetween that gets caught lighted up by your planes. Way to get yourself sunk. If the planes are up, most of the time that people get caught out is when they were caught off guard, in which case, could as well have been a spotter plane.

 

And even if it worked, the cost in your ship performance is so garbage and the benefits su situational that most people wish this was an Ibuki on their team.

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1 minute ago, Riselotte said:

Alright, park your T9 Mogami 8 km away from a BB and tell me how there is a DD inbetween that gets caught lighted up by your planes. Way to get yourself sunk. If the planes are up, most of the time that people get caught out is when they were caught off guard, in which case, could as well have been a spotter plane.

 

And even if it worked, the cost in your ship performance is so garbage and the benefits su situational that most people wish this was an Ibuki on their team.

Why should I stay at 8 km away from a BB?

 

bomber.png.d3b1eca85fb2cb6987355856c987daf6.png

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3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Why should I stay at 8 km away from a BB?

 

bomber.png.d3b1eca85fb2cb6987355856c987daf6.png

You can see the plane rotate and something like the IJN DDs have a bit over 3km air detectability usually and enough speed to get out of the way. Those like Kiev with higher air detectability are even faster. In your example though, only that DD actually has a good shot at the enemy DD and unless it's a Russian DD, at that range it won't kill anything before the planes pass by. And if it really becomes an issue, there exists smoke.

 

And for this very situational play you just gave up 40% of your guns. Also, if this was a Fletcher, then you just lost however many planes were in that squad.

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10 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

You can see the plane rotate and something like the IJN DDs have a bit over 3km air detectability usually and enough speed to get out of the way. Those like Kiev with higher air detectability are even faster. In your example though, only that DD actually has a good shot at the enemy DD and unless it's a Russian DD, at that range it won't kill anything before the planes pass by. And if it really becomes an issue, there exists smoke.

 

And for this very situational play you just gave up 40% of your guns. Also, if this was a Fletcher, then you just lost however many planes were in that squad.

It's not situational, that's every game the case. In every game a dd tries to get the cap. Maybe you're super pro and trick everyone. But I see that every game. The bb's can shoot at the dd. The planes are at ~3km and you could set the planes on the dd, so he have to use the smoke, or he is dead. If he is at full speed, his smoke won't hide him instantly. He will get shots definetly and has to use smoke, just for a utilitly thing of an cruiser.

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