Conqs heal and Republics armour

[wilkatis_LV]

While trying to find at least something good about Republic that would justify playing her over other BBs I started thinking - my argument for Conqs heal being "completely fine" was that Conq has no armour compared to others AND lacks the HP, and I still think that it's fair that way.

BUT now the Republic - exactly same lack of anything you could call armour, the same 32mm all over (on a much bigger target profile aswell), so you could say she's in the middle between Conq and other BBs. And yet, Republic has perfectly normal heal, as if that lack of armour meant nothing. 

 

I'm just not ok with that.

 

Either armour (or rather lack of it) is a reason to improve the heal, in which case Republics one should be improved (not as far as Conqs, of course) or Conq gets its superheal just because it has less HP, and that one is a big no no - too strong of a compensation just for that little of a loss, and thus it should be reduced.

 

---

 

Feel free to skip the rest of this

 

What the heal should be instead? I'd say one of them needs it changed - but the destination probably can be identical for either one.

Normal heal is 0.5% HP per s for 28s

Superheal is 2% HP per s for 20s

If we assume that SH indeed was a compensation for both - armour and health - you can scale those heals by simply doubling the % and taking off 4s for each of them

(0.5*2*2 = 2% & 28-4-4 = 20s)

This leaves a nice middle-ground of 0.5*2 = 1% & 28-4 = 24s heal.

 

Of course, that's just a guess as to how that would look, game balance reasons would probably tweak that way off of what I got here, but one of them definitely needs to change

[WingedHussar_Adler]

We don't need another OP ship

[FishDogFoodShack]

20 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

Either armour (or rather lack of it) is a reason to improve the heal, in which case Republics one should be improved (not as far as Conqs, of course) or Conq gets its superheal just because it has less HP, and that one is a big no no - too strong of a compensation just for that little of a loss, and thus it should be reduced.

 

The real reason is gimmick.

 

Both the UK lines are cesspools of "gimmick" and "what if it had" nonsense. I for one am glad the bluecoats are not down there with them.

 

Well ... not as deep, at least.

[Chaos_Umbra]

While I only tried the Republique in space battles as the Paris, I found that it's selling points were very accurate fast firing main guns with the ability to quickly get on the flank or dis-engage using speed boost, has good AA and a good secondary load-out (as in better secondary fire starter than Kurfurst with the same range and better angles). Supper heal not necessary, and you shouldn't take the RN BBs as the standard as they are just a broken mess anyway, why on earth did WG decide to make both RN lines gimmicky as *edited* it makes me dread the release of RN DDs...

[Azalgor]

Long ago Yamato had a better heal, was stripped of it because people sayd it was OP... Then RN happened and it became mainstream...

Yamato only has her ''guns'' as a gimmic, how many does the Conq has? Rep has her speed boost and fast reload, top it off way better secondarys, she doesnt need anything.

[Oderisson]

3 hours ago, Azalgor said:

Long ago Yamato had a better heal, was stripped of it because people sayd it was OP... Then RN happened and it became mainstream...

Yamato only has her ''guns'' as a gimmic, how many does the Conq has? Rep has her speed boost and fast reload, top it off way better secondarys, she doesnt need anything.

Not exactly...

- Yamato has superb guns (dispersion and caliber. they are so important that they should be counted as 2),  and good armor (exposed citadel doesnt count just dont go broadside).

- Montana has aa, decent guns, decent armor. Its all around ship.

- Kurfurst has great armor and great secondaries. Its only ship that cant be penned from front by Yamato (60mm armor). Rest is average. Gun angles for rear turrets are very bad.

- Conqueror has great heal, great he shells, good concealment, but pays for that with terrible armor (had 30k salvos on it without citadels) and torp protection (no spotter plane. Every DD is a deadly threat it you are alone). Accuracy of 419s is pretty bad. Yes it has 24km range but with 419s one may not bother to shoot.

- Republique has great guns and speed boost. Also secondaries are decent but too small caliber to treathen cruisers and above. Only DDs. Rest has to fear just fires. It has terrible armor.

 

Only thing i would change about republique is deck armor. I think it should be buffed to 38mm. Buff it to 50mm and you get a good brawler, maybe too good. Yamato and kurfurst have 50mm deck.

[wilkatis_LV]

I played Republic only on Space Battles and PTS, but still

 

3 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

very accurate (..) main guns

We can't have played the same ship. Republic is anything but accurate.

 

In fact, the accuracy (I mean dispersion) is directly comparable with Conq and Montana - they are almost identical. On Montana you pretty much always run Accuracy Mod in the 6th slot to make her accurate (other 2 don't get it), and Conq is pretty much known to be spray and pray at anything past 17...18km which is why at those ranges you get the HE > AP as you simply can not guarantee a good, accurate hit on anything.

 

3 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

fast firing main guns

Fast firing - yes. But that doesn't mean much

In fact, you get similar DPM to Montana (slightly less if I remember correctly) when running the MBM3 for the better reload, and don't forget that Monty, while being far more accurate, does that in 2 salvos while you have to find a way to fire 3.

 

Same goes for shells on target / shells per min - Republic just looks bad when you take a look at those 2 (I think I should jsut make a post comparing Republic with others to show how distinctly below average she is )

 

3 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

ability to quickly get on the flank

I think that's the funniest part about Republic - she's not fast. Same speed as Monty and GK, 0.5 kts more than Conq. Speed flag mounted = the same. Only with Spood Beest active she is a bit faster than others, and even then those 3 are closer to Republic than to the Yamato

 

3 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

a good secondary load-out

Which you can not use bcuz you never want to be that close to enemies - you don't have the armour to take the beating that will come from the enemies that you are pushing

 

Not to mention that if you go AA / secondary build you make your guns even worse:

• You sacrifice last shreds of accuracy you could have (slot 3)
• You sacrifice your DPM and Shells on target / per min (slot 6)
  • Both of those actually go so far down, that you beat only Yamato (which has lolpen to make up for it) and 457 Conq (which is so bad noone should ever play it)
• You sacrifice last shreds of your survivability that could come from your captains build

 

As a comparison look at the other secondary BB - GK. Look at its armour everywhere. 60mm bow, up-armoured zones all over decks and sides. What does Republic have? 32mm everywhere - only DDs won't be able to pen that with HE

 

3 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

Supper heal not necessary, and you shouldn't take the RN BBs as the standard

That's not the point, well, kind of. As I said - my point for Conq having SH was always that lack of armour + hp. Now it doesn't hold true anymore, so I do stand against that.

 

3 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

RN BBs (..) are just a broken mess anyway

Heavily overrated and nothing more to be perfectly honest

 

3 hours ago, Azalgor said:

Rep has her speed boost and fast reload, top it off way better secondarys

Just read what I wrote above so I don't need to repeat myself

 

 

[ghostbuster_]

5 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

While trying to find at least something good about Republic that would justify playing her over other BBs I started thinking - my argument for Conqs heal being "completely fine" was that Conq has no armour compared to others AND lacks the HP, and I still think that it's fair that way.

BUT now the Republic - exactly same lack of anything you could call armour, the same 32mm all over (on a much bigger target profile aswell), so you could say she's in the middle between Conq and other BBs. And yet, Republic has perfectly normal heal, as if that lack of armour meant nothing. 

 

I'm just not ok with that.

 

Either armour (or rather lack of it) is a reason to improve the heal, in which case Republics one should be improved (not as far as Conqs, of course) or Conq gets its superheal just because it has less HP, and that one is a big no no - too strong of a compensation just for that little of a loss, and thus it should be reduced.

 

---

 

Feel free to skip the rest of this

 

What the heal should be instead? I'd say one of them needs it changed - but the destination probably can be identical for either one.

Normal heal is 0.5% HP per s for 28s

Superheal is 2% HP per s for 20s

If we assume that SH indeed was a compensation for both - armour and health - you can scale those heals by simply doubling the % and taking off 4s for each of them

(0.5*2*2 = 2% & 28-4-4 = 20s)

This leaves a nice middle-ground of 0.5*2 = 1% & 28-4 = 24s heal.

 

Of course, that's just a guess as to how that would look, game balance reasons would probably tweak that way off of what I got here, but one of them definitely needs to change

Rep is fine and doesnt need anything. Pls stop asking for unnecessary buffs. WG might take those serious...

[Ferry_25]

Still grinding OP (I always wait for the "hype" to wear off in a new line) and at T6 now. So far I like what I see. Impressions for me thus far are the French BB's aren't brawlers neither snipers. Something in between I make them shine in much of the cases.

[wilkatis_LV]

13 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Rep is fine and doesnt need anything. Pls stop asking for unnecessary buffs. WG might take those serious...

Then maybe read that post again and try to see past "he will only ask for buffs" idiotic idea which you always seem to hold on to (even if I have never actually asked for a BB buff, well, not one that doesn't deserve it. Monarch is so garbage it needs something, and I'm pretty sure that's the only one I've ever mentioned)

 

As I said multiple times by now - I keep my point that Conqs heal is perfectly fine only as long as it accounts for both - armour AND hp. It's too much for one of those. So either Republics or Conquerors heal has to be adjusted, depending on the armour being counted into it or not

[Chaos_Umbra]

3 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

(even if I have never actually asked for a BB buff, well, not one that doesn't deserve it. Monarch is so garbage it needs something, and I'm pretty sure that's the only one I've ever mentioned)

No what the Monarch needs is removal from the game it is an abomination!

[Ze_Reckless]

Maybe you just need to learn how to play République? She has great guns on a crêpe crappy platform. I like her and I also like the French cruisers. You have to be very careful with your timing when you push in and when you pull out with the French ships. They are excellent flankers and they can react quickly to the flow of the battle (if you can read it).

[GulvkluderGuld]

17 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

As I said multiple times by now - I keep my point that Conqs heal is perfectly fine only as long as it accounts for both - armour AND hp. It's too much for one of those. So either Republics or Conquerors heal has to be adjusted, depending on the armour being counted into it or not

Republique does not have bad armor. It has the ungodly super spaced armor of the french.

I have shot repeated volleys into the flat broadside of Rep using my 419 conq and all i got was 0 dmg penetrations.

Meanwhile shooting the conq yields not uncommonly 30-40k salvos.

Sure both ships are vulnerable to HE spam but that is not the whole story.

 

 

[Exocet6951]

If anything, the Alsace and République shows perfectly that "but muh 32mm plating!" is a piss poor excuse to have a superheal.

 

 

[ghostbuster_]

11 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Then maybe read that post again and try to see past "he will only ask for buffs" idiotic idea which you always seem to hold on to (even if I have never actually asked for a BB buff, well, not one that doesn't deserve it. Monarch is so garbage it needs something, and I'm pretty sure that's the only one I've ever mentioned)

 

As I said multiple times by now - I keep my point that Conqs heal is perfectly fine only as long as it accounts for both - armour AND hp. It's too much for one of those. So either Republics or Conquerors heal has to be adjusted, depending on the armour being counted into it or not

Well none of them deserves any buff. Actually they all need raised citadels to be get punished harder if the player makes a stupid mistake. Btw, stock monarch is bad. But still not as bad as the old stock amagi. Once you upgrade the monarch, its a decent ship and it also doesnt need anything.

 

Rep is just fine right now. Like i said it doesnt need any adjustment or any buff. About conqueror, i still do think its a r.tardproof ship which needs adjustment. 

 

 

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

Played a space battle with her and shot eleven citadels. Eleven. Citadels. 

 

She has her drawbacks and the guns will troll you at times, but she is well balanced. 

[Gojuadorai]

- France is the best or 2nd best BB for Ranked atm

- France is fun to play

- France armor layout is  a drawback but is it to big of a drawback for the upsides? cant say at the moment.

[veso_vn]

I think that WoWs have the same problem like WoT paper ships/tanks are better than ships/tank that really exist

[Exocet6951]

1 hour ago, veso_vn said:

I think that WoWs have the same problem like WoT paper ships/tanks are better than ships/tank that really exist

 

Why would being a blueprint intrinsically make a vehicle not as good as a vehicle actually built? 

 

Ships are strong or weak because of their characteristics, not their existence or lack thereof. 

[dasCKD]

11 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

Why would being a blueprint intrinsically make a vehicle not as good as a vehicle actually built? 

 

Ships are strong or weak because of their characteristics, not their existence or lack thereof. 

Well, I mean sometimes paper ships would just be superior, intrinsically, to ships in real life thanks to the constraints of reality. Take the Akizuki for example. One of her largest weaknesses is her speed, a weakness she would not have if the theoretical Akizuki instead of the actual Akizuki were represented in game. When a ship is actually built the problems and limitations of reality make themselves known. It's like how the 138 mm Mle French destroyer guns had a theoretical designed RoF of nearly double their IRL RoF thanks to mechanical flaws in the loading mechanisms.

 

As for the Republique, she's fine as she is. Quite enjoyable as well, if her guns actually behaves. The Conqueror is stupid however. If the Conqueror's traits does indeed make the Republique compare unfavorably to her, then it is the Conqueror that should be nerfed. Asking for the Republique to be buffed and citing the Conqueror is like if WG released the Stalingrad with the RoF of a Hindenburg and instead of nerfing the Stalingrad they instead chose to give the Hindenburg the RoF of a Minotaur.

[Exocet6951]

15 minutes ago, dasCKD said:

Well, I mean sometimes paper ships would just be superior, intrinsically, to ships in real life thanks to the constraints of reality. Take the Akizuki for example. One of her largest weaknesses is her speed, a weakness she would not have if the theoretical Akizuki instead of the actual Akizuki were represented in game. When a ship is actually built the problems and limitations of reality make themselves known. It's like how the 138 mm Mle French destroyer guns had a theoretical designed RoF of nearly double their IRL RoF thanks to mechanical flaws in the loading mechanisms.

 

 

I don't think mechanical problems are represented ingame, and the Akizuki was never meant to be a speed demon, being an AA platform and all of that (I might be wrong, but I'm assuming the naval architects didn't mess up so badly that they screwed up the calculations by at least 2 knots)

The game takes so many liberties with accuracy, speed and reliability that any IRL problem a ship might have had is simply washed away,.

The 138mm doesn't have twice the RoF because that would be OP, not that it was flawed. It might actually make the Aigle a good ship, but that's besides the point.

 

And for every paper ship that's better, there's a paper ship that's just worse, like the Izumo or Yorck.
So really, in my mind, a paper ship or real ship is as good as the dev teams makes it, regardless of if it was built or not.

 

 

[wilkatis_LV]

12 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Republique does not have bad armor.

True. Simply bcuz she doesn't have anything that could even be called armour at that tier.

 

5 hours ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Btw, stock monarch is bad. But still not as bad as the old stock amagi.

I know. And there is a good reason why the Amagi got removed, and why I would never recommend anyone to get the Ashitaka.

 

Stock Monarch is so bad I'd take KGV over it in any match it gets. Fully upgraded? Half decent when top tier, still pathetically useless against 9s and 10s. But again - that's not the topic here

[creamgravy]

Conqs heal is crap, the normal RN BB heal is better after the huge reload nerf (you have to play sooooooo passively)

 

Republic has speed boost to mitigate damage.

[Spunyarn]

Armour seems fine, against Missouri AP into the broadside at least. Training room with four stationary targets, parked Missouri so was 8-15km off their side, and started shooting. Conqueror took penetrations or over-penetrations but Republique took those and 0 damage shatters and consistently lower damage. Tried Montana as well and damage being taken was similar to Republique, so by that token not surprising that healing also similar.

 

Also confirmed the aim-assist on locked-on targets exists. With the two closest targets one was not-quite behind the other and when I aimed at the furthest one while still locked onto the closest one the shells splashed into the sea between them.

 

Enjoying Alsace, looking forward to getting my Super-Spee (Grosse-Graf? Mega-Mikasa?) and having a neat progression of 2x2, 2x3, and then 2x4.

[AnotherDuck]

20 hours ago, Oderisson said:

- Yamato has superb guns (dispersion and caliber. they are so important that they should be counted as 2),  and good armor (exposed citadel doesnt count just dont go broadside).

Not counting exposed citadel is bullcrap when most of the others have protected citadels, whether by turtleback or sunken down. Yes, armour is good frontally, but that assumes you don't get flanked or overrun. Which is not an assumption you can make in average gameplay.