ST - T10 Ship Specific Upgrades

[loppantorkel]

Just now, 159Hunter said:

What he says...

Because he so thoroughly explained why it is such a brilliant idea?

[wilkatis_LV]

11 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Surprised by the lack of outcry against the straight up buffs to some BBs btw.

Are we just getting used to it?

Same, well, sort if.

Yamato gets pretty impressive accuracy buff, 10/10 was definitely needed. 

GK and Rep look interesting and usable, but a little bit on the meh side (haven’t directly compared to what they would normally run in that slot so can’t quite comment)

Conq and Monty are a definite skip on this one, not worth losing the concealment

[loppantorkel]

2 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Same, well, sort if.

Yamato gets pretty impressive accuracy buff, 10/10 was definitely needed. 

GK and Rep look interesting and usable, but a little bit on the meh side (haven’t directly compared to what they would normally run in that slot so can’t quite comment)

Conq and Monty are a definite skip on this one, not worth losing the concealment

Nice to see someone actually comment on specific ships and mods..

So the Yama mod, as I also thought, looks like it might need some reconsideration, while the other bb mods at least aren't obviously OP..?

 

Anyone else dare to specify their criticism of the mods?

[WeGreedy]

Finally there's a one-minute-radar!

 

Spoiler

To be clear, I think it's bad.

 

[Seeigel]

Quote

Hakuryu (Slot 6)
+5% to maximum aircraft speed
+15% to to fighter HP

That renders the flight control modification 2 (+5% speed) absolutly useless. Sounds more like a typo?

 

Quote

Midway (Slot 6)
+30% to attack aircraft survivability
-5% to maximum aircraft speed

The Midway counterpart is at least some sort of a trade. Either take the normal +15%HP or take the +30% HP but loose 5% speed.

[loppantorkel]

36 minutes ago, SeeteufeI said:

Finally there's a one-minute-radar!

there is?

[NoirLotus]

Just now, loppantorkel said:

there is?

Worcester + radar upgrade in slot 2 + special upgrade.

[Aotearas]

So, now that I actually have some time to go through these in detail:

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Republique (Slot 6)
-19% to main battery traverse speed
-18% to main battery loading time
-16% to main battery maximum firing range

Absolute no-brainer. No one needs 26km range and 22km is plenty enough. Turret traverse? Who cares, especially if you have the Honoré captain with the improved EM skill. Getting a reload of less than 20 seconds is absolutely worth the trade-offs and what other module would you ever pick over it?

 

Main battery reload mod? Why when the speshul upgrade gives better reload.

Range? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

Secondaries? For a troll build perhaps, but otherwise just nope.

AA dps? Naw.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Grosser Kurfurst (Slot 6)
-7% to main battery traverse speed
-15% to main battery loading time
-8% to main battery maximum firing range
-10% to secondary battery loading time)

Again, no brainer. Trading a little range and negligible turret traverse for a significant reload buff and a small buff to secondaries.

 

Only competitive module would be the vanilla main battery reload mod if you think you need that little bit extra range and the secondary module for full troll builds (put IFHE on captain for the whole three yards). Everything else, naw.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Yamato (Slot 6)
-19% to main battery traverse speed
-12% to main battery loading time
-11% to maximum dispersion of main battery shells

Anyone who played Yamato already knows how to handle the plate tectonics, otherwise known as Yamato turret traverse. That's no drawback and you get a massive dispersion buff for it, making the Yamato even more accurate than she already is. Another no brainer.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Montana (Slot 5)
-10% to flooding recovery time
-10% to time of fire extinguishing
-70% to steering gears repair time
-30% to rudder shift time

Trading a bit stealth for improved DoT endurance and better ruddershift ... honestly the only BB module I wouldn't consider taking over the concealment system upgrade. And who the hell cares about Target Acquisition mod anyways?

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Conqueror (Slot 5)
+13% to main battery traverse speed
-80% to steering gears repair time
-40% to rudder shift time

This one I'd actually take. Don't care much for turret traverse, plus I have the Jack Dunkirk captain with the improved EM skill. And trading a bit stealth for 40% faster ruddershift actually sounds like a bit fun, make it just that much better at kiting (at which the Conqueror is already obscenely strong) and this ship already has plenty strong base concealment anyway.

Again, no one cares for the Target Acquisition mod.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Zao (Slot 6)
-20% to rudder shift time
-7% to maximum dispersion of main battery shells
+8% to main battery maximum firing range)

Wouldn't pick. Zao ruddershift never was the problem, the turning radius is. And I've never seen someone genuinely complain about Zao dispersion, in fact a bit dispersion helps in setting more fires as you'll probably hit multiple flammable shipsections with one salvo. The vanilla main battery range upgrade offers more value imho, or the main battery reload upgrade for extra dpm at the expense of range.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Hindenburg (Slot 5)
-30% to rudder shift time
-70% to flooding recovery time
-50% to time of fire extinguishing
-50% to main battery repair time

Meh, wouldn't pick. Hindenburg is manouverable enough and the DoT endurance bonuses are of questionable use as cruisers already suffer less fire duration and the Hindenburg at tier X has the heal. Flooding duration, who cares, if I got hit by a torpdo that procced a flooding I probably have other problems anyway than the flooding itself. And main battery repair time? Pfft. Wouldn't trade the extra concealment and dispersion buff for that.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Henry IV (Slot 5)
+10% to rudder shift time
+5% to detectability radius
-12% to main battery loading time
+8% to main battery maximum firing range)

Again, wouldn't pick. Worse ruddershift, worse detectability for faster reload and a bit more range. HIV doesn't need extra range (though with those debuffs that would look mighty different I suppose) and whilst stacking the reload buff with the 6th slot upgrade sounds tempting, I'm not going to trade in passive survivability only to be forced to play even further away from the enemy than I already have to in the HIV.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Minotaur (Slot 6)
-30% to smoke duration
+300% to smoke emission time
-10% to the maximum dispersion of enemy shells that fire on your ship

Why would anyone take this? Current smoke emission time is long enough to go into full reverse, pop smoke and just stop within your smoke screen boundary. If I want to use my ship to put up a smoke screen big enough for allies to share with, I play the Gearing, not the Minotaur. Enemy dispersion debuff is also negligible as afaik that only applies for ships that are locked on to you. Anyone blindfiring in your smoke will have the same dispersion due to not being locked-on.

If this module improved Surveillance Radar range instead of changing smoke characteristics it might be worth a shot trying out how the Memotaur with Radar would work with the stacking enemy dispersion debuffs from this and the CS upgrade, but otherwise, no. Would still keep my main battery reload upgrade for the extra dpm, or the AA dps upgrade for AA troll builds.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Des Moines (Slot 6)
-40% to time for reaching full engine power (improves acceleration)
-20% to rudder shift time
-10% to duration of Surveillance Radar

Lolno.

Just no. Worse ruddershift buff than the competing Steering Gears Mod.3 in ADDITION to Radar duration nerf, for better acceleration? Whoever proposed this should get his workplace checked for mindaltering substances (that includes Vodka). And this is also competing with the main battery range upgrade. Why on earth would I pick slightly better ruddershift (Des Moines already has good enough ruddershift for me to use the Engine upgrade in the 5th slot, so I already have improved acceleration anyway) and less radar duration for more acceleration when I can have ~2,5km more firing range (something which is sorely needed in the current tier X longrange meta)?

 

This is easily the one token speshul upgrade that makes no sense at all.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Worcester (Slot 5)
+10% to duration of Surveillance Radar
+20% to duration of Hydroacoustic Search
+20% to duration of Defensive AA Fire
-5% to detectability radius)

Talking about a ship that isn't even released yet is a bit sketchy, but trading 5% concealment and the enemy dispersion debuff for what's essential three special consumable modification upgrade, light-/no-caff-version sounds like a no brainer.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Moskva (Slot 5)
-13% to main battery traverse speed
-11% to maximum dispersion of main battery shells
+8% to main battery maximum firing range)

Wouldn't take. Slightly worse turret traverse, better dispersion and a bit more range ... all that at the expense of concealment and the enemy dispersion debuff. Dispersion has never been a problem and neither was the range. Quite the contrary, the abysmal concealment is the one thing I find most detrimental on the Moskva, why would I want to give that up for what essentially amounts to a slight range buff?

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Khabarovsk (Slot 5)
-13% to main battery traverse speed
-6% to main battery loading time
+8% to main battery maximum firing range

Sounds tempting. Currently still playing with the concealment systems upgrade, but trading that for an extra kilometer range and an ever so small reload buff is a seductive offer. This is the one speshul module that I'd have to spend some time testing to find out whether I'd like it or not compared to my current build.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Z-52 (Slot 5)
-5% to detectability radius
-10% to torpedo reload time

Wouldn't take. With my current build I can already throw out torp salvoes every 69 seconds and for DDs (that actually play like DDs, I consider Lhaba the exception for what should be obvious reasons) concealment is king. I'd rather keep the 5% better concealment and the enemy dispersion debuff and could happily live without an additional 10% shorter torpedo reload.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Shimakaze (Slot 6)
-25% to torpedo tube reload time
+50% to the risk of torpedo tubes becoming incapacitated
-80% to torpedo tube traverse speed)

Not sure if I'd take it, probably not. Faster torpedo reload, but Yamato-style torpedo tubes turret traverse. I think I could very well settle for the vanilla torpedo reload upgrade with the 15% reload buff and keep my torpedo tube traverse well lubricated, in particular because one might need that in a pinch because ...

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Gearing (Slot 5)
-15% to detectability radius
+5% to the maximum dispersion of enemy shells that fire on your ship
+15% to main battery loading time
+5% to torpedo tube reload time

No brainer. If the math checks out this would tie Gearing's concealment with the newly buffed Shimakaze, which even with the main battery reload nerf would still be hopelessly outmatched in firepower. Would also allow the Gearing to comfortably outspot every other DD at tier X. 5% torpedo reload nerf is also not that much of a trade-off considering how more versatile this ship would be in DD vs DD brawls. Yue Yang would out-dpm the Gearing (particularily with the proposed new speshul upgrade), but that would be a trade I'd be willing to make for the improved brawling capabilities. Would have to test if I drop the 6th slot torpedo reload upgrade for the main battery reload to offset the main battery dpm nerf and live with the effective 20% torpedo reload buff.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Yueyang (Slot 6)
-15% to smoke duration
-30% to smoke emission time
-10% to main battery loading time
-10% to torpedo tube reload time)

Another no brainer. Pan-Asian DD smoke is already so amazing that after nerfing it it's still pretty damn good and for that rather small trade I'd get better main battery dpm AND only slightly worse torpedo reload than my current build with the vanilla torpedo reload upgrade. Would consider this module the most blatantly unbalanced one, bordering on making the Yue Yang overpowered over its competitors. 

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Grozovoi (Slot 6)
-7% to main battery traverse speed
-18% to main battery loading time
+10% to torpedo tube reload time)

Wouldn't take. First of all, because my Grozovoi is my AA troll boat and that wouldn't quite work without the AA dps upgrade. Secondly because Grozovoy already has a pretty solid reload (particularily with the BFT skill on my captain). And with my current build I already don't care for the torpedo reload. A suppose with the main battery reload buff the Grozovoi would become a rather scary dpm hose in short engagements, but that's about it as I wouldn't want to expose myself in that massive hitbox for longer than I absolutely need to. Plus the Yue Yang with its speshul upgrade and better concealment would still beat it in a brawl, so imo no point building the Grozovoi for it, it already is an excellent support DD.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Midway (Slot 6)
+30% to attack aircraft survivability
-5% to maximum aircraft speed

This would effectively give the Midway's TBs and DBs their old tier X HP and a slight speed nerf. Afaik competes with the +15% aircraft HP upgrade (don't know if that works on all aircraft or just TBs/DBs or fighters). Can't really judge without hightier CV experience.

 

14 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Hakuryu (Slot 6)
+5% to maximum aircraft speed
+15% to to fighter HP

 

Slight speed buff to all aircraft (would probably allow Hakuryuu to evade Midway fighters pretty effectively, particularily if Midway uses its proposed speshul upgrade) at the expense of aircraft HP. Again, can't really judge without hightier CV experience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Overall judgement:

 

I find the trend of cruisers almost unilaterally trading concealment (very important) for the new upgrades whereas (most) battleships trade far less important performance characteristics (notably NOT their concealment for most battleships, and those who do already have pretty damn good base concealment) for their respective buffs. This would only decrease the already alarmingly little concealment difference between cruisers and the cruiser killers which gets a big, fat

 

NO-NO

 

from me. Unless those changes get implemented at the same time with a flat battleship concealment nerf, I'd have to say lolno, this looks just like another balance change that benefits battleships the most by a solid margin (and renders some balance changes like the recent Shimakaze concealment buff pretty much moot *cough*5,6km Gearing*cough*).

 

 

Long post so if anyone finds typos, you can keep them. I'm not going to comb through this one again.

[principat121]

2 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

It's a stupid ship that makes the InvisiZao look profound and full of complexity

Beause the Hindenburg is placed:

• number 6 out of six CA in winrate
• 5/6 in av. frags
• 3/6 in damage
• 2/6 in experience
• 3/6 in planes shot down

Clearly the easiest to play and best CA on tier10.

Damn statistics...

[Exocet6951]

4 minutes ago, principat121 said:

Beause the Hindenburg is placed:

• number 6 out of six CA in winrate
• 5/6 in av. frags
• 3/6 in damage
• 2/6 in experience
• 3/6 in planes shot down

Clearly the easiest to play and best CA on tier10.

Damn statistics...

 

Hrm...
Yes, yes it is.
That's why it's picked so damn often.

It has the best armor, has ridiculously good DPM, has HE that pens 50mm decks, a massive amount of torpedoes per side, a ridiculous hydro, very good AA, turtleback that lolbounces so damn much, and as if that were not enough, it could now only take half the fire damage, meaning it could be even tankier.

It's clearly the easiest CA to play.
It might have a lower skill ceiling, but it's still incredibly easy to play, and adding even more survivability to it is just helping to further pervert the ship's original concept into the idiotic, skill-less max range HE spam and forgiving armor pile of bad decisions it is today.

 

 

It says a lot when a ship that was specifically made to be a very brawly, AP-centered ship is most commonly used to long range HE spam, and it now more successful at it than the Zao, which was specifically made for a more long range harassing purpose.

You cite all the (biased in your case, since you're not even drawing conclusions from it) statistics you want, you're still not able to grasp why a brawly AP cruiser is now a better HE slinger than an actual HE slinger is a bad thing.

[principat121]

2 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

You cite all the (biased in your case, since you're not even drawing conclusions from it) statistics you want, you're still not able to grasp why a brawly AP cruiser is now a better HE slinger than an actual HE slinger is a bad thing.

Nice story. You fail to see, that the average player seemingly does not follow your RoE. If you what to talk about balance ships, you have to look at the actual statistic and not to a "how it should be played".

 

And could you be so kind to provide a source for the claim, that the Hindenburg is better a "HE slinger" then the Zao? That would be nice!

[Aotearas]

3 minutes ago, principat121 said:

And could you be so kind to provide a source for the claim, that the Hindenburg is better a "HE slinger" then the Zao? That would be nice!

For reference:

 

 

 

Second figure is the interesting one since that incorporates the upgrades (main battery reload for the Hindenburg and range for the Zao as the typically picked upgrade choices).

 

If Zao would pick main battery reload too, its HE dpm would maintain rough parity with the Hindenburg's and its fires per minute climg to 11.2, edging out the Hindenburg's.

But let's also not forget that with 51m HE pen, the effective HE dpm on the Hindenburg is greater than on the Zao by virtue of less shells shattering on armour, most commonly the 38-50mm threshold on large parts of several battleships' decks and hulls.

 

[loppantorkel]

 

Very nice analysis in whole, Aotearas.

1 hour ago, Aotearas said:

Another no brainer. Pan-Asian DD smoke is already so amazing that after nerfing it it's still pretty damn good and for that rather small trade I'd get better main battery dpm AND only slightly worse torpedo reload than my current build with the vanilla torpedo reload upgrade. Would consider this module the most blatantly unbalanced one, bordering on making the Yue Yang overpowered over its competitors.

I agree that this module is a buff over the standard ones and I also think that the YY is a powerful ship, borderline OP, which I've stated long time ago, but this module isn't a gamebreaker. I've got gun reload buff now. Means this buffs torp reload 10%, barely nerfs the guns and barely nerfs smoke. Overall a buff, but 10% torp reload isn't huge. Without having looked through it all, I'd say the Yama mod seems like a better upgrade than the YY one, maybe some other mods too.

[ghostbuster_]

2 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Because he so thoroughly explained why it is such a brilliant idea?

Are you asking for advice for your T10 ships or what? Why do you insist people to share their opinions about each of those upgrades? I said enough about why its such a "brilliant" idea. There are more important things to do right now. So, no need to discuss those "brilliant" upgrades. After fixing the current problems, they can open these upgrades to ST and discussion. Then we can discuss every single one of them. But now, even WG devs being busy with those upgrades instead of the problems is just dumb. 

[Aotearas]

Disregard, read something wrong.

[loppantorkel]

28 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Are you asking for advice for your T10 ships or what? Why do you insist people to share their opinions about each of those upgrades? I said enough about why its such a "brilliant" idea. There are more important things to do right now. So, no need to discuss those "brilliant" upgrades. After fixing the current problems, they can open these upgrades to ST and discussion. Then we can discuss every single one of them. But now, even WG devs being busy with those upgrades instead of the problems is just dumb. 

Sure, valid point, but there are plenty of times people have screamed 'terrible idea WG' and it turns out it was a pretty good idea in the end. Same here. Too many are opposing changes but can't be arsed to explain why they don't like them. Some mods are too strong? Then which ones would be nice to know. I don't believe these mods are putting cv revision on hold...

27 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

Disregard, read something wrong.

Did I miss anything spicey?

[ghostbuster_]

16 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Sure, valid point, but there are plenty of times people have screamed 'terrible idea WG' and it turns out it was a pretty good idea in the end. Same here. Too many are opposing changes but can't be arsed to explain why they don't like them. Some mods are too strong? Then which ones would be nice to know. I don't believe these mods are putting cv revision on hold...

Did I miss anything spicey?

CV revision should start first to be put in hold by those upgrades. Not only CV rework. Like i said there are still some bugs. 

 

What are those ideas? Because every idea that i and people that i know found bad, didnt turn out it was a good idea. 

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, Seeigel said:

That renders the flight control modification 2 (+5% speed) absolutly useless. Sounds more like a typo?

 

To be fair speed upgrade alone has always been useless.

The new one at least kinda competes with the strike aircraft HP upgrade, although personally I still wouldn't take it. Haku has air control capabilities for days anyway since she got buffed, no need to overdo it.

[wilkatis_LV]

3 hours ago, Aotearas said:

18 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Yueyang (Slot 6)
-15% to smoke duration
-30% to smoke emission time
-10% to main battery loading time
-10% to torpedo tube reload time)

Another no brainer. Pan-Asian DD smoke is already so amazing that after nerfing it it's still pretty damn good and for that rather small trade I'd get better main battery dpm AND only slightly worse torpedo reload than my current build with the vanilla torpedo reload upgrade. Would consider this module the most blatantly unbalanced one, bordering on making the Yue Yang overpowered over its competitors. 

Run Yue with a radar - you get faster gun & torp reload with no drawbacks

[megaducky]

This seems a bit ridiculous, most of the BB upgrades are very good, the CA upgrades seem very weak, the DD upgrades are weak for ships that are already weak, and strengthen strong ships. And worchester gets even more AA? If this get out I'll have to ditch my Taiho (new ship spam, + buffed AA => unplayable matches for CVs) I do like the CV upgrades though.

[FishDogFoodShack]

On a somewhat related note, because an upgrade for Wooster is included here, am  I to assume that WG considers that ship completely finished now and has no intention to adjust it further?

 

Considering giving it an upgrade that so heavily boosts it's abilities/numbers when it isn't even released yet sounds to me that they have a LOT of confidence that she is already good and balanced, da.

[Cyclops_]

So the Minotaur gets nerfed, pretty crap really.

[Darth_Glorious]

Hindenburg with new upgrade module and only signal flags can put down a fire after 4.5 s and has a rudder shift time of 6.8s

[Erga_Buzerga]

31 minutes ago, Darth_Glorious said:

Hindenburg with new upgrade module and only signal flags can put down a fire after 4.5 s and has a rudder shift time of 6.8s

4.5 secs? How did you get there? Or is that with BoS and the "tanky" module?

When I calculated it, I got "only" 9 secs of extinguishing time (30*0.3 =9), which can of course be further enhanced with the module/skill.

[159Hunter]

6 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

Because he so thoroughly explained why it is such a brilliant idea?

I agree with his statement because it makes sense to me. But not to you it seems. So let me explain:

 

WG stated that they are working on CV rework (but that it's not easy and early). Yet they will now add extra AA mods and CV mods without having CV rework finished. So for all we know these mods will conflict with the CV rework. Which will mean double work afterwards.

 

Plus the CV rework is long overdue. Can't they finish it before adding new modules that aren't needed at tier X ( cause it is a pretty balanced tier ).

 

OH and. Adding a mod for an unfinished ship?