Double CV matches... Why?

[LastButterfly]

I remember back in the old days a 4 CV match. I had a Lex and the guy with me a Shoukaku (yeah back in the days it was a thing even at higher tiers).

I was in AS - yeah, I was that one bastard who played Air Superiority, once again, back when it was a thing. We actually communicated. Our fighters and bombers moved together and each of us covered for the other when necessary. I sent my squadrons to defend his attacks. When my aircrafts were far, or reloading, he would provide necessary cover for the fleet. Our dive-bombers alternated their attacks and he torpedoed incoming threats.

 

That was a blast. Probably one of the best game I ever had around here.

 

That's all.

[EgyptOverseer]

16 minutes ago, LastButterfly said:

I remember back in the old days a 4 CV match. I had a Lex and the guy with me a Shoukaku (yeah back in the days it was a thing even at higher tiers).

I was in AS - yeah, I was that one bastard who played Air Superiority, once again, back when it was a thing. We actually communicated. Our fighters and bombers moved together and each of us covered for the other when necessary. I sent my squadrons to defend his attacks. When my aircrafts were far, or reloading, he would provide necessary cover for the fleet. Our dive-bombers alternated their attacks and he torpedoed incoming threats.

 

That was a blast. Probably one of the best game I ever had around here.

 

That's all.

Fair point.

 

Interesting how the tiers where AA is more reasonable across the board is where double CV matches were removed from MM, but in tiers where the majority of AA is basically non existent it's OK to overpopulate the air. Really helps increase love and appreciation for CVs. lol

 

And to stress a major point, double CV matches with T5 and T6 are just wrong, especially since it's not uncommon for the T5 to be spawned on the side of the T6 and vice versa.

[El2aZeR]

41 minutes ago, EgyptOverseer said:

Get a fire through torp bombers

 

 

[EgyptOverseer]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

 

Glad that was the only mistake you noted. Obviously it was meant to be just bombers. 

[El2aZeR]

49 minutes ago, EgyptOverseer said:

Glad that was the only mistake you noted.

 

There is plenty wrong and some things right with what you've written, but I've already made that clear. No need to repeat myself.

[Skyllon]

9 hours ago, EgyptOverseer said:

(...) All it takes with a double CV match is for both CVs to go for the same target (...)

Players coordinating in randoms? WG! What have you done to your own game?!

[Fat_Maniac]

9 hours ago, EgyptOverseer said:

And to stress a major point, double CV matches with T5 and T6 are just wrong, especially since it's not uncommon for the T5 to be spawned on the side of the T6 and vice versa.

 But with no manual drops at T5, a bit of situational awareness and WASD hax means torp dodging isn't that hard. 

 

And how many double CV matches actually occur at T5 and T6, and in how many of them do the CV's actually work togther?

 

The only times I think I see double CV frequently is if there is a specific mission objective up that can best be achieved in a CV. 

[EgyptOverseer]

2 hours ago, Fat_Maniac said:

 But with no manual drops at T5, a bit of situational awareness and WASD hax means torp dodging isn't that hard. 

 

And how many double CV matches actually occur at T5 and T6, and in how many of them do the CV's actually work togther?

 

The only times I think I see double CV frequently is if there is a specific mission objective up that can best be achieved in a CV. 

The point is actually straffing T6 fighters spawning on the side of auto T5 fighters, but oh well.

 

About how common it is, it was a weekday yesterday and I had more double CV matches than non CV matches. At one point there were 6 consecutive double CV matches, from T7 to T5. No current known CV specific missions, so I guess it's not that uncommon. Surprised to see how almost half of poll participants class themselves as CV players.

[Fat_Maniac]

11 minutes ago, EgyptOverseer said:

The point is actually straffing T6 fighters spawning on the side of auto T5 fighters, but oh well.

 

On this we can definitely agree. A T5 CV matched against a T6 in a double CV game is unfair.

[megaducky]

Dual CV matches are absolutely fine, they give a chance for more plane kills, and reduce the infamous skill gap since it's less likely that both of your CVs will be potato. Although it sucks for anyone they focus, (it always sucks to be focused) it certainly is a lot less bad then being focused by triple TBs from a Taiho or Haku, or being focused by a CL div. Dual CV matches are simply different, and because everyone who plays this game are awful at reacting to new experiences and adapting (to be fair, this is true in every field of life) people hate it. The only issue I have is that when I play in a dual CV match, I have a hard time distinguishing my planes from my friendlies planes. It is nice to be able to coordinate actions with another CV though. It's not like it's particularly hard to deal with being focused either. The last time I was focused by two CVs I was in my kuma, and dodged every single torpedo they aimed at me. So it's not particularly bad. 

(And before someone calls me a noob who has no clue what I'm talking about, this is an alt account which I use to play with friends, I main NA, and own a taiho, which I adore absolutely)

[Johan_Jung]

4 CVs are very bad in a tier IV or V match. No problem in tier VI or VII.

 

It is beyond logic that 4 CVs are allowed in a tier IV match...

 

 

[Visionhunter]

Am 12.5.2018 um 16:51, megaducky sagte:

Dual CV matches are absolutely fine, they give a chance for more plane kills, and reduce the infamous skill gap since it's less likely that both of your CVs will be potato. Although it sucks for anyone they focus, (it always sucks to be focused) it certainly is a lot less bad then being focused by triple TBs from a Taiho or Haku, or being focused by a CL div. Dual CV matches are simply different, and because everyone who plays this game are awful at reacting to new experiences and adapting (to be fair, this is true in every field of life) people hate it. The only issue I have is that when I play in a dual CV match, I have a hard time distinguishing my planes from my friendlies planes. It is nice to be able to coordinate actions with another CV though. It's not like it's particularly hard to deal with being focused either. The last time I was focused by two CVs I was in my kuma, and dodged every single torpedo they aimed at me. So it's not particularly bad. 

(And before someone calls me a noob who has no clue what I'm talking about, this is an alt account which I use to play with friends, I main NA, and own a taiho, which I adore absolutely)

Read your comment today and played a game with you some hours later, was one of the best dual CV matches I had so far, thanks for the good teamwork. :-)

[SFCGunny313]

CVs are broken beyond repair.

 

They tried to limit manual drops/strafing at tiers 4-5 to remove the seal clubbers - that still didn't work.  Run matchmaking monitor and if you decide to play your Arkansas Beta or Nikolai once in awhile, you'll still see tier 4/5 CV players with 500+ battles.

 

The problem is the skill gap, and I honestly don't know if that can be addressed.

 

A good/great CV player matched against a lower skill CV player will dominate the match...easily 90%+ of his matches.

In comparison, a good/great BB player, cruiser player or DD player cannot do the same.

CVs are the one ship class which can completely dominate a match and dictate the battle.  It's broken pure and simple.

 

I understand there are players who love CV, and they've devoted thousands of battles and hundreds of hours into that gameplay - but that is part of the problem.  There is absolutely no way a new player can bridge that skill gap.  There is no way for an average player to bridge that skill gap.  And that gentlemen, is why many players hate CVs in the game as they are now.

[Commander_Cornflakes]

Vor 18 Minuten, SFCGunny313 sagte:

They tried to limit manual drops/strafing at tiers 4-5 to remove the seal clubbers - that still didn't work.  Run matchmaking monitor and if you decide to play your Arkansas Beta or Nikolai once in awhile, you'll still see tier 4/5 CV players with 500+ battles.

Of yourse you only meet them in Arkansas Beta or Nikolai.

Surely not in one of your nearly 200 Zuiho matches, Mr.

Vor 22 Minuten, SFCGunny313 sagte:

part of the problem

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, SFCGunny313 said:

The problem is the skill gap, and I honestly don't know if that can be addressed.

 

Pff, nothing easier than that.

- remove noob trap mechanics, upgrades and skills (auto drop, Evasive Maneuvers, Emergency Takeoff just to name a few)

- implement thorough tutorial explaining the basics of CV play

 

You know, just like CV players have demanded for years. Anything beyond that can simply be labeled as "git gud".

 

1 hour ago, SFCGunny313 said:

I understand there are players who love CV, and they've devoted thousands of battles and hundreds of hours into that gameplay - but that is part of the problem.  There is absolutely no way a new player can bridge that skill gap.  There is no way for an average player to bridge that skill gap.

 

I hope you realize that this can be said about every class in the game.

And please, I can easily kill 3-4 opposing same tier DDs on my own, then have disproportionate impact on the battle compared to cruisers and BBs. Yet for some reason I never see people crying out about how unfair it is that skilled DD players can influence a battle to such an extend.

 

The actual reason why CVs are "broken" is because average player skill is so low that if you'd jump down into that abyss you'll die of old age before you hit the bottom. Skilled CV players decide games because literally no one knows how to play this game beyond a very few people across all classes.

If given the chance I am able to win games on my own in CVs not only because I'm capable of dominating the opposing CV, but because everyone else is also serving themselves up to me on a silver platter. Heck, I can (and even have to) take caps in my CV on a semi-regular basis because almost everyone in this game is too stupid to do so or deny me from doing it.

 

Are there issues with CVs in their current state? Sure. But the primary problems lie elsewhere. Skilled CV players simply benefit from a lot of the failures WG has piled up over the years.

- BB overpopulation? More DDs as victims and less AA cruisers to worry about.

- Lack of CVs? Less people running AA builds or DFAA

- Removal of alt attacks in low tiers? Fewer CVs that will learn how to play, yay!

- The captain skill rework? Even fewer people running AA as now other builds become viable.

- More AA buffs and AA on ships? Even less CVs, also hello CV divs!

- Abysmal average player skill?  yes, gotta love that target rich environment.

- Smoke nerf? Oh, thank you for even more spotting and striking potential.

- RN BBs? Sure, why not wipe entire ships of their AA suite in just 2-3 hits.

- AP bombs? Gotta love the ability to wipe out AA cruisers, the direct counter to CVs, in a single strike.

The list goes on and on.

 

Thus the need is born to dumb down CVs so that unskilled play can go along unpunished. The CV rework is a monument to WG's failure to educate their playerbase and complete and utter disregard of skilled play or progression, preferring to let braindead potatoes run rampant. To say that this is some problem isolated to how CVs work is stupid beyond belief.

[xRSxrs]

Games with 4 cvs are the worst. Why:

1. It happens on low tier where majority of ships has no AA. Doesnt help at hier tiers either. 

2. People with over 1000+ games in T4, T5 cvs with 19 pts cpt screwing the play for newcomers. Why... because its easy to sealclubb even with autodrop noone can survive. If you are saying thats not true i dont know how good you are cause i can do it with 14 matches played. I stoped playing cvs because at the end i was always matched with 2cvs per team and i was botom tier in Bogue and i had even worse cv player as a teammate than i am, and i am a noob. Its a big difference if you have at least 10 skill pts captain than 3. And i got borred already with gameplay.

3. I cant have big impact on a game with other ships if the CV players are unbalanced regarding skill.

4. Stoped playing Fuso because of that. It was better to play uptiered by 2 than being top tier with 2 cvs per side. That ship has no AA and cant turn. When you are turning you cant turn the other way. 

 

The most hilarious games are when you get 2 T7 cvs per side when all other ships are T6 and T5,

 

A lot of ppl complains there are no CVs players (i see them a lot even at higher tiers). Thats because they are all playing T4, T5. Interesting isnt it. And same ppl complaining about autodrops. Figure that one out.

[RC_8015]

Playing all ships, nations and classes, and I love them, no matter if I am a cv or not. As cruiser its often your time to shine, and such matches require players to show some skill in terms of AA usage. Sure, the Cvs often decide the game then, but also you as DD can turn the whole game by sinking the enemy cvs. And yes, this works even with the "perma-spotting", already sunk enough cvs even with russian dds.

So yea, 4 cvs are fun as they bring some action into the game.

[anonym_FDOLXpxOfXXq]

22 minutes ago, xRSxrs said:

 14 matches played.

14 over 6k :D

 

On topic, I kinda like these 4CV games, you spend more time looking at what happens in the sky, makes for a nice change.

Main problems as I see it, as mentioned by more experienced players:

- the (lack of) communication between the 2 CVs on one team

- the occasional tier 5 vs 6 situation, with the huge difference due to manual attacks

 

Seems that many people complaining about CVs just refuse to acknowledge that CVs are part of the game.

Speccing ships and captains a bit more towards AA, and pay a *little* attention to the planes on the minimap helps a lot.

Also, CV-less games feel a bit dull if you're in a cruiser.

[xRSxrs]

23 minutes ago, RC_8015 said:

Playing all ships, nations and classes, and I love them, no matter if I am a cv or not. As cruiser its often your time to shine, and such matches require players to show some skill in terms of AA usage. Sure, the Cvs often decide the game then, but also you as DD can turn the whole game by sinking the enemy cvs. And yes, this works even with the "perma-spotting", already sunk enough cvs even with russian dds.

So yea, 4 cvs are fun as they bring some action into the game.

Are you the one chasing CVs all across the map not minding the objectives like caps and horribly dies most of the times?

[Sargento_YO]

At first I was annoyed when I play in my Zuiho and meet a Ryujo or an Independence on the enemy team. But I stopped worrying about that, since I'm the bottom tier carrier it's "ok" if I don't do it as well as being on the top. If things goes wrong everybody would blame our own tier 6 one. Hell, several times I outplayed both tier 6 ones. This gives a greater feeling of achievement which wouldn't happen if things wouldn't be like they are now. This was from two days ago.

 

 

[Barkyro]

On 5/12/2018 at 2:39 AM, EgyptOverseer said:

Which leads to teams clumping together and not pushing caps. Hence my point about camping. Double CVs, and the fact that you can have a strike happening every 30 seconds is absolutely brutal to any player(s). Get a fire through torp bombers, dodge torp bombers attack but still end up with one torp hit that floods, expose broadside to enemy ships, use repair party, then get another bomber strike within 30 seconds that causes perma fire, then get another torp bomber run. All it takes with a double CV match is for both CVs to go for the same target every 2 minutes and it's a guaranteed kill, then rinse repeat. At least with one CV you know that it your repair will be off cool down by the time the next wave comes...

 

And in terms of AA, I am really intrigued as to the players that claim that they are not bothered by CV attacks in a cruiser up to T7. In silver ships only the Cleveland and Fiji are reliable plane killers, and any other silver cruiser at those tiers needs to rely on having a DefAA consumable ready to at most just spread the torps. I have all silver cruisers in that bracket so I am not talking without knowledge to back it up.

 

This is not a discussion about CVs in particular, just the unquestionable unbalanced match generated by MM with 4 CVs.

 

To be honest, I am surprised there are non CV players happy to see double CV matches, but then again they must be sailing exclusively ships that farm AA damage. I dare for example a Shchors captain to enjoy a double CV match, or a Normandie or any other ship that is easy point and click kills for a CV alone, nevermind 2.

"every 30 seconds is absolutely brutal to any player(s)" -> boggles the mind

"Shchors " -> Really? I personally can not say I event noticed CV's in that thing but ok....

 

All in all man you still have a bit to learn about the game if you are struggling with CV's at those tiers.

Personally I miss having more CV's in the game as that was so much fun dodge there dodge there focus one squad turn into your support cruisers and so on. Personally I really miss having that.

[xRSxrs]

23 minutes ago, AmiralPotato said:

14 over 6k :D

6k+ is Co-op included. 3,7k in random. 

Like i said i was getting borred already. Its not my cup of tea right now. 

[Excavatus]

You can say I don't have any first hand exp as a CV captain. None!

But I have a lot of XP as a CV enemy.. and yes there may be problems with CV mechanics and gameplay.. I can't comment on that.

But the major problem is with the players..

CV is a someway similar to arty in WOT...

Yes the skillcap is completely different and it is a problem here..

but the major problem as I said.. is most of the players are playing as the same with or without CV

You can't do that.

CV is a major factor in a game which alters the dynamics.

You cannot apply same tactics you know in a game with CV and without a CV as the same.

But.. people refuse to do that,

because %99 majority of the playerbase.. knows only one tactic for every map..

in this map.. this island is perfect.. then they go that island every time..

in this map, I've defended this cap once.. and did good.. now I have to go that cap in the next 1000 battles ı've spawned in this map..

 

I have no hope that people will learn the ability to read the situation and team compositions before the battle starts and act accordingly.

This is the main problem in general and it affects the game much much more when there is a CV in the match..

 

You cant go to the same cap in every DD...

you cant go to the same side in every match in every BB..

and you cannot go alone behind an island and expect to do wonders when there is a CV who can delete you with an AP bomb..

 

But that is too hard to understand.

Like people who doesn't understand it is so easy to avoid arty in WOT matches, when you accept there is an arty in the match and act accordingly..

[Commander_Cornflakes]

Vor 7 Stunden, El2aZeR sagte:

- remove noob trap mechanics, upgrades and skills (auto drop, Evasive Maneuvers, Emergency Takeoff just to name a few)

Don't you dare shittalking my Evasive Maneuver Waifu!!

[El2aZeR]

6 hours ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

Don't you dare shittalking my Evasive Maneuver Waifu!!

 

I will talk whatever I want about Evasive Maneuver! Your waifu is trash!

 

Seriously though, if it wasn't an essential part of my income I'd not even bother to kill the planes of potatoes who took EM. They're hindering themselves harder than I could ever hope to do.

Even with proper micro EM impacts the amount of strikes you can fly per match, though. If you believe that's a worthwhile trade off, fine. I certainly don't.

 

7 hours ago, xRSxrs said:

Why... because its easy to sealclubb even with autodrop noone can survive.

 

If you get killed by auto drop you deserve it. Nothing in this game is easier to dodge than a TB auto drop.