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How would YOU design U-boat gameplay?

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You are lead gameplay designer at Wargaming. How would you design U-boat gameplay in World Of Warships?

I would love to know☺

 

My take on it would be to make U-boats have detectability range of 1 km while being under water but extreamly slow and the time under water would be limited. While on surface they would be as fast as a normal ship but easier to detect. Hydro consumable would be able to spot U-boats from a greater range while being under water. A new weapon system depth-charges would be introduced to cruisers and destroyers. 

U-boats would be glass canons to counter battleships. 

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I would use IJN DD.

They can do everything U-boats are supposed to do, only better.

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In the same way WG already did in... April 2017(?):

 

Port queens with no option to queue for battles.

Makes balancing achievable, even for WG. :Smile-_tongue:

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14 minutes ago, Admiral_Surprise said:

My take on it would be to make U-boats have detectability range of 1 km while being under water but extreamly slow and the time under water would be limited. While on surface they would be as fast as a normal ship but easier to detect. Hydro consumable would be able to spot U-boats from a greater range while being under water. A new weapon system depth-charges would be introduced to cruisers and destroyers. 

U-boats would be glass canons to counter battleships. 

Please no? It would just mean most sub players will go for stupid flanking maneuvers to snipe carriers and BB in the rear. Thanks to their speed they themselves are useless and thanks to their preferred tactics it is then up to the smaller ships to now also stick around in the rear to spot and delete these people, which is just a pain. It'd mean that in any given match with submarines, a good lot of the players will do little to nothing towards the objective, even if they are not utter potato (as it'd be silly to expect submarines to stick around where the DDs normally are, just as DDs screening is not a bad move in such a situation). And when the majority of the time you are bored out of your mind because you are doing the right thing, then that's crappy game design.

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Oh I would make subs.

 

But.

 

In a special game mode.

 

(And not before fixing the badgillion thing that needs to be fixed in this game ! Which would be done by 2131)

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To put it simply,

- Not usable outside of specific scenarios

...aand that's it, really.

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40 minutes ago, Admiral_Surprise said:

You are lead gameplay designer at Wargaming. How would you design U-boat gameplay in World Of Warships?

I would love to know☺

 

My take on it would be to make U-boats have detectability range of 1 km while being under water but extreamly slow and the time under water would be limited. While on surface they would be as fast as a normal ship but easier to detect. Hydro consumable would be able to spot U-boats from a greater range while being under water. A new weapon system depth-charges would be introduced to cruisers and destroyers. 

U-boats would be glass canons to counter battleships. 

 

This is highly hypothetical but more fun than many other threads. ^_^

The problem is: Why should I change from IJN-DDs to U-boats? When you are in a critical situation than you need speed to escape. When you are in these U-Boats than you are dead. You have no way to escape.

 

A Kagero is a great spotter but the little speed disadvantage in comparison to Benson is a problem. When there is a huge speed difference than you can't compensate it. So a DD is better when it comes to fights against enemy DDs and DDs are U-boat hunter as well. Plus there are often islands around cap zones which is a disadvantage for U-boats.

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Its pretty impossible with how things are now, because:

 

-DD and CA would need a total revamp, as they will be the hunters.

-Deep charges and mines would need to be implemented, as both were means to destroy subs.

-If mines will be introducet, there will be a need for a 5 ship class to dispose of them.

-WG would not introduce hydro for all DD and cruisers, nor would they extend the range for the search of subs.

-15 knt speed would mean that all the action will be late game for the sub gameplay thus little to no impact on the outcome.

-Damage dealth to subs is something i dont even want to mention with all the saturation mechanics and all.

 

Theese are just the few i could think of why one should not bother, so if we want to play subs we need to wait for ''World of Submarines''. Tho even the sound of it is funny.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Admiral_Surprise said:

You are lead gameplay designer at Wargaming. How would you design U-boat gameplay in World Of Warships?

I'd keep it exactly the same as it is right now - nonexistant :Smile_trollface:

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Please no? It would just mean most sub players will go for stupid flanking maneuvers to snipe carriers and BB in the rear. Thanks to their speed they themselves are useless and thanks to their preferred tactics it is then up to the smaller ships to now also stick around in the rear to spot and delete these people, which is just a pain. It'd mean that in any given match with submarines, a good lot of the players will do little to nothing towards the objective, even if they are not utter potato (as it'd be silly to expect submarines to stick around where the DDs normally are, just as DDs screening is not a bad move in such a situation). And when the majority of the time you are bored out of your mind because you are doing the right thing, then that's crappy game design.

I understand what you are saying and thank you for the great comment by the way. ☺But how about this? 

U-boats might be great for contesting caps. Destroyers these days are not really that great for taking over caps due to all radars. Playing destroyer at higher tiers is kind of a panic mode gameplay. A U-boat would not show up on the radar. A U-boat is a great spotter. A U-boat could sneak up and contest caps.

The destroyers role would primary be to counter the U-boat.

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Subs have a major problem that they really arent suited to the game. 

 

-Subs have torps. But not a huge amount

-Subs dont really have guns

-Subs dont really have AA

-Subs are small so low HP

-Subs are really slow, and incredibly slow when under water.

 

If WG were to introduce a class that actually fits their historic (ish) abilities, then quite simply they would be rubbish.

 

If you would like to have a go at exactly how rubbish, try this;

-Take the german tier 4 DD (with front mounted torps)

-Take a tier 5 friend so you get a fail division into a tier 7 game

-Turn your AA off

-You can only go at half speed max

-If you want to "submerge" put the smoke on

-If "submerged" you can only go quarter speed max

-Only torps you can use are the front ones

-Only gun you can use is the front turret

-You can't use the gun if "submerged"

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13 minutes ago, Azalgor said:

Its pretty impossible with how things are now, because:

 

-DD and CA would need a total revamp, as they will be the hunters.

-Deep charges and mines would need to be implemented, as both were means to destroy subs.

-If mines will be introducet, there will be a need for a 5 ship class to dispose of them.

-WG would not introduce hydro for all DD and cruisers, nor would they extend the range for the search of subs.

-15 knt speed would mean that all the action will be late game for the sub gameplay thus little to no impact on the outcome.

-Damage dealth to subs is something i dont even want to mention with all the saturation mechanics and all.

 

Theese are just the few i could think of why one should not bother, so if we want to play subs we need to wait for ''World of Submarines''. Tho even the sound of it is funny.

 

Just for the sake of the thought experiment, let me connect this with my premise (yes, but only in scenarios).

 

- "DD and CA would need a total revamp": Wouldn't say a total revamp. They'd need a new gimmick, something in which WG is an expert by now. :Smile_trollface:

- "Deep charges and mines would need to be implemented" - Yes. Though, just depth charges are fine as for active countermeasures.

- "If mines will be introducet, there will be a need for a 5 ship class to dispose of them" - I'm all for putting in random stuff for scenarios, but I don't see the absolute need here. Mines are already in scenarios, or at least in one of them. They work okay even without minesweepers.

- "WG would not introduce hydro for all DD and cruisers, nor would they extend the range for the search of subs." - They don't have to. They would need to "simulate" passive sonar. Active pinging is good enough as it is on the consumable.

- "15 knt speed would mean that all the action will be late game for the sub gameplay thus little to no impact on the outcome." - Thus the scenarios with even specific spawn locations for the sub players. As for enemy AI subs, this is a non-issue.

- "Damage dealth to subs is something i dont even want to mention with all the saturation mechanics and all." - They don't have to follow the same model, such as possibly forts don't follow the same damage model.

 

Obligatory illustration from my old topic. :Smile_teethhappy:

Spoiler

MXdG7lj.jpg

 

...but again: the simple answer would be possibly a "no", that much is true enough. And also again, in my opinion, the maximum answer should be "only in scenarios". WoWs PvP is about fleet battles, and strictly speaking, submarines had no business in them.

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4 minutes ago, Admiral_Surprise said:

I understand what you are saying and thank you for the great comment by the way. ☺But how about this? 

U-boats might be great for contesting caps. Destroyers these days are not really that great for taking over caps due to all radars. Playing destroyer at higher tiers is kind of a panic mode gameplay. A U-boat would not show up on the radar. A U-boat is a great spotter. A U-boat could sneak up and contest caps.

The destroyers role would primary be to counter the U-boat.

Destroyers still are the main cap contesters, even with radar. How often is it a cruiser capping, vs a DD? And if a DD runs into a cap and does not spot an enemy, it likely will start to search for a submarine. In the limited cap circle, the submarine can only get so far, before it gets spotted and sunk, being unable to run off with is crappy speed. If the enemy is a Loyang or German DD, it gets even worse with hydro.

 

And yes, submarines can spot, but that doesn't pay off much and it is also risky, as while a DD can bail if the situation turns for the worse, a submarine cannot. Which is exactly why I predict most will go for the flanking, because it's the least risky way to get to ships that give good damage and cannot easily kill the sub.

 

Also, as said before, hunting submarines in a DD would be easy exp when you find one, but just trying to hunt them in the wide open map is just a pain. This game is designed around 20 minute intense clashes, not around 5 minutes fighting amidst 15 minutes routine duty.

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19 minutes ago, darky_fighter said:

 

This is highly hypothetical but more fun than many other threads. ^_^

The problem is: Why should I change from IJN-DDs to U-boats? When you are in a critical situation than you need speed to escape. When you are in these U-Boats than you are dead. You have no way to escape.

 

A Kagero is a great spotter but the little speed disadvantage in comparison to Benson is a problem. When there is a huge speed difference than you can't compensate it. So a DD is better when it comes to fights against enemy DDs and DDs are U-boat hunter as well. Plus there are often islands around cap zones which is a disadvantage for U-boats.

Im thinking that U- boats would be a extreme version of IJN DDs, perhaps some players enjoy that playstyle?.

 

A U-boat could have less torps, but each torpedo would do 30 000 damage ?

 

If a U-boat is hunted by DDs is could dive even deeper. The penalty would that it would take longer to come back to the fight ?A playstyle for the strong minded!

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I know game-balance trumps realism, but you seem to be reversing things. U-Boats were slower on the surface than normal ships, but harder to detect as there was just the sliver of hull above water plus the conning tower and deck-gun. And a surfaced U-Boat would be running on their diesel engines and be noiser and easier to detect than a submerged one using the electric motors.

 

That said I think I'd borrow a concept from the Total War games where some units can be deployed outside the normal deployment area. Submarines in the time period covered were ambush predators who pre-positioned themselves on known routes (often travelling at night on the surface) and waited. So was more like ColonelPete's cat avatar creeping into position through cover than an actual Wolf Pack chasing prey down, and since (unlike the IJN DDs he mentioned) the Submarines would be too slow to reach their ambush positions if they started in normal places I'd let them deploy further forward. But not far enough forward to give any good chance of flanking manouvres and without any ability to capture zones.

 

It almost certainly wouldn't work out as hoped but the intent would be to make known camping spots less attractive through the threat of a submarine potentially lurking near them and the submarine player would have to decide when to reveal their presence through the subtle clue of torpedoes in the water. Try to kill that Destroyer or Cruiser that could be a threat to them, or try to evade and ambush a juicier target once the screen has passed? Be a rather slow deliberate sort of gameplay, and likely as little to some people's taste as CVs.

 

And with how some maps have narrow "corridors" that are already unappealing because of the risk of torpedoes that might encourage "sit in spawn" camping at the same time as discouraging "sit behind island" camping. So I already thought of a drawback and why it wouldn't work as hoped. :Smile-_tongue:

 

10 minutes ago, AkosJaccik said:

 WoWs PvP is about fleet battles, and strictly speaking, submarines had no business in them.

 

Look up the K-Class boats and the Royal Navy attempt to create a submarine that could work with elements of the fleet on their sweeps... so yes, much agreed.

 

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4 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

In the limited cap circle, the submarine can only get so far, before it gets spotted and sunk

You are thinking to much in terms of current game design :Smile_smile:.

U-boat would never run away.

A U-boat would dive deeper. It would cloak. But perhaps while being deep down it could do nothing! :Smile-_tongue:

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Just now, Admiral_Surprise said:

You are thinking to much in terms of current game design :Smile_smile:.

U-boat would never run away.

A U-boat would dive deeper. It would cloak. But perhaps while being deep down it could do nothing! :Smile-_tongue:

As long as it is spottable and killable with depth charges, it's going to die up there. If a submarine can just disengage at will and be untouchable, then it is just breaking game design. And if you want to redesign the entire game around this one new class, then I might suggest to you, that maybe you try a different game?

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Subs. Have. No. Business. Fighting. With. Main. Surface. Force.

 

Subs have no place in this game. At least not in the current game. They would need a very specific mode. That requires time, ressource, investment, people.

 

Entire point of subs was to attack convoys and isolated targets, sometimes moored. The few warships that were killed by subs were most of the time caught by surprise, far from the main battle.

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5 minutes ago, Admiral_Surprise said:

Im thinking that U- boats would be a extreme version of IJN DDs, perhaps some players enjoy that playstyle?.

 

A U-boat could have less torps, but each torpedo would do 30 000 damage ?

 

If a U-boat is hunted by DDs is could dive even deeper. The penalty would that it would take longer to come back to the fight ?A playstyle for the strong minded!

Strong minded and insane often go hand in hand. And sure I would enjoy the playstyle of having an even more fragile extreme version of what is arguably the most unreliable ship line in the game. Less torps would just be boring as hell, even if they did 100k damage. If you can't reliably hit targets or spam out enough of them you are going to be pretty useless.

 

And diving deeper, just no. We already have people running away at the slightest hint of danger. Imagine a sub just going deep instantly when a cap is contested and effectively taking itself out of the battle for a long time.

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I'm another who thinks that adding subs would bugger up gameplay. You'd probably be looking at something along the following lines:

  • Smaller than DD, with very low hp total.
  • Very slow under water (and pretty slow on the surface, by the standards we're used to).
  • Forward firing torps mostly (smallish arc), with a couple of rearward firing tubes in some cases (again, narrow arc).
  • Single (weak) gun that only fires on the surface (well, duh!).
  • Counters would be depth charges (you'd have to more or less drive right over the thing), hydro (which would need to become more widespread), and ramming.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to play subs within the current gameplay layout - too slow, boring, and not able to do much for 90% of the battle; they would also make the game more annoying for everyone else, who would have to waste time messing about sinking the things.

 

So, all kinds of 'nope'...

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18 hours ago, Johmie said:

 

 

It almost certainly wouldn't work out as hoped but the intent would be to make known camping spots less attractive through the threat of a submarine potentially lurking near them and the submarine player would have to decide when to reveal their presence through the subtle clue of torpedoes in the water.

 

 

Yes I would love that, sounds really fun!:Smile_smile:

 

18 hours ago, Riselotte said:

And if you want to redesign the entire game around this one new class, then I might suggest to you, that maybe you try a different game?

Dont be silly, U-boats are cool and belongs in World Of Warships, you know it , I know it :Smile_smile:

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Just now, Admiral_Surprise said:

Dont be silly, U-boats are cool and belongs in World Of Warships, you know it , I know it :Smile_smile:

In operations or a special PvE gamemode, yeah sure I'm for it. But they shall stay out of PvP.

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U-boats huh, it may sound good but (im not defending anything here) in this game they wouldnt work as well as some may think :Smile_Default:

Edit:

As others have said for ops, it sound verry feasable though. 

Edited by Major_Damage225

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