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KarmaQU_EU

WoWs suffers from being Antisocial

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[FAME]
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Edit: TL;DR I can't believe ppl are still taking me seriously/assume I am very serious. We all know nothing we write on forums matters for crap. Perhaps there is some truth in the things I say, but not with the effectiveness I can manage to write it with. There is nothing friking wrong with WoWs. Ever. Dream on.

 

WoWs suffers in its holding power of players due to awkwardly designed social interaction. This may be the reason the "great player diaspora" happened. Social interaction is great for a games' endurance.

 

I have come to see that games which excel in their design of "social interaction" as a correlation between their success and popularity and endurance, while games with "antisocial" or badly designed social interaction systems suffer and tend to end in failure.

 

For instance, the most popular MMOs, wow, FFXIV, and GW, all placed utmost care to foster a "social sphere" with unique characteristics, franchise-level strength, in their games. EVE online has another unique take on this. These games as a result enjoy holding power and endurance from well-designed social interactions.

 

A comparative good example is the recently popular PUBG and Fortnite style games. While these games have no traditional social sphere, in a sense there is still much social interaction going on. Due to the effects of "agency", players can feel an "almost-realistic" degree of immersiveness while playing that game, though manifest in different form, as "outward social flaunting". And to some extents there are modes which stress teamwork. Teamwork, more traditionally represented in MOBA style games, is another example of highly effective "good" social interaction design.

 

"Social interaction" can thus also be interpreted as "social immersiveness", stressing the "agency" factor instead of responsive socializing. Players may find social immersiveness by being in a community for a wholly single-player game, connected by the franchise itself (e.g. single-player hardcore simulation / professional tech-building games, which have 0 integrated social interaction whatsoever unless you are mechanophile), or by exercising "simulated social agency" towards in-game assets (many japanese games, e.g. Kancolle). KC is also a good example of community-based social immersion through fan creations. In other words even single player games are not necessarily antisocial, and benefit from well-designed social interaction.

 

However, "social immersiveness" is not ubiquitously possible in any form. Some forms are "antisocial", granting negative effects. Situations which may grant negative effects are input without feedback, 'empty without echo'. And the presence of hostile feedback without corresponding positive buffer fallback points. Thus "antisocial" can be interpreted as the "lack" of non-defunct social feedback loops, or the presence of negative feedback loops / mismatched feedback loops diminishing positive forms of agency. And not necessarily the lack of responsive real-human feedback, nor the lack of traditional social interaction, as commonly interpreted. Developer-written qualitative content can still count as real-human feedback, while "social immersiveness" hinges more on the absence of net negative structures or not exceeding amount of the positive, to "draw" players in, and not the other way around. Put as simply as possible, it means the need for the existence of a sphere for collective social interpretation, and not the absence of. As you can see, the need for "responsiveness" does not come high in this model, though it is a bonus.

______

In brief, to not be antisocial, there must be a vehicle to carry the collective social interpretations of the audience. A non-empty echo space, or reflection space, for in-ward agency projections from players. It need merely reflect, not respond. (though that is always a bonus)

______

 

WoWs suffers in this sense because the game has no coherent social collective. It is in some sense a singleplayer game without a community sphere. It also draws in endless agency devotion without feedback, or even echos, because this part is mute and never designed into it. Thus like a bad feedback error, agency is still being endlessly input, with nothing to output. (WoWs lacks a good core of meaningful content. It's historical context could have served as one, or a focus on engineering, or just deep, complex mechanics gameplay. Or excessively beautiful graphics. Just something romantic, immersive, beautiful, fun. Anything.)

 

- There is no (deeper) teamwork.

- There is no deeper "social representation" as all ships are more or less non-customizeable. And playing a specific ship does not 'say anything about you (except maybe Asashio and radar CA).

- Whatever social connections are brief if non-existent. They last no longer than a single match.

- All existing social structures, community, clan, all exist for the sole purpose of the game, and not otherwise. (This is a bit complicated to explain, but think of it this way: if the game is socially empty, its dependencies are also 'technically' empty, especially if its dependencies are solely hinged on this single factor) 

- Toxicity is still prevalent, in a "sorry it's not personal, its just business" kind of way. (I only want to farm, sry had to clicker-nuke you). "It's just business" is as I understand it, a derogatory term. This is negative feedback. 

- (and) Players are also forced to impose this "it's just business" on other players as well. Naturally it's not gonna sit well with most ppl. Not everyone is Most people are not antisocial, unfeeling monsters.

 

A bad example of defunct social sphere design is Elder Scrolls online. They think that by simply adding co-op to a single-player game, that makes it multiplayer. No, multiplayer is much more complex than that ... and because they shoehorned in a multiplayer, what little cohesive singleplayer charm there was also got destroyed. Thus, with nothing going for it, it was not popular.

 

I had once criticized WoWs as a "singleplayer" game. This is because its progression, its revelations, its enjoyment, is all inherently single-player. It is inherently a single player's struggle within the game. Player 1 vs WoWs. Just because it is "multiplayer" in a sense, does not mean it has all the "infrastructure" to support this kind of collective sphere. Some may argue WoWs has flags, camos, achievements, premiums, emotes No No No. Those are but "needless, sometimes excessive logistics" that are not even QoL or anything meaningful. Kancolle was a superb design precisely because it had no excessive "logistics" to interfere with its core, meaningful content. WoWs not only suffers from a weak core, it also has a plethora of logistics. Its resource-based progression system is itself one huge logistic. "but WoWs relies on that to make money" that's the point, in the past, excessive logistics could be tolerated due to the infancy of game design philosophies / techniques, but nowadays anything short of "very very polished" is not even "acceptable" in a highly competitive consumer stage. (Oh btw WoWs doesn't even have much going for emotes. Radio banter is not. Ship horn is. Flares would be better. Most ppl use cursing in chat.)

 

(Definition: Think of "Logistics" as what huge, tedious supply chain one has to set up in order to get their prized, shiny prestige warship into the battle. Analogy aptly named. You don't want too much logistics interfering with the core, meaningful content. Some logistics is good for immersion, and is itself meaningful, "setting up" the scene better, I mean, ships do need supply after all. But there are fine lines drawn in the sand at golden angles. How to draw those fine, beautiful lines, are what designers get payed for.)

 

______

 

How to fix all this:

 

Hell if I know. I was busy analyzing how to ergonomically optimize CV controls scheme based on "micropulses" of attention a player would perform while playing CV. But that was all assuming CV would stay RTS, which WG says otherwise, so it's all out the window.

 

SO How to fix all this:

Hell if I care. I just wanted to whine on forums like I usually do. (BTW most of you will think this is the TL;DR but it's not. Though it's not as if I could persuade you otherwise anyways. So we'll just continue with that joke hm.)

 

It's just, it's not as simple as problem as "players need to be showered in more general econ stuff so we need to be more generous". It's not a simple, shallow problem at all. WoWs has a deep cancer, and it suffers.

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Beta Tester
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I dont know about Wows being antisocial, i mean every time i take the Kamikaze for a spin i get allot of chat :Smile_trollface:

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[ADRIA]
[ADRIA]
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Yes, WoWS is so antisocial I'm in daily contact with 50+ people in my clan chat, even more in WoWS CC discord channels, then even more in Forums, and then just random people I happen to play with - whether it's just a single game where we might have a chat (a: "You suck! Ffs learn to play!" b: "no u" a: "OMG *edited* you" - that is a conversation :Smile_teethhappy:) or we decide to div up for a few more. All of whom I wouldn't have had any contact with if I (and they) didn't play this game. Antisocial :Smile_trollface:

Edited by NickMustaine
Inappropriate language
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[7DSF]
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Thats another typical nonsense thread from "Drama Queen", many bla bla and nothing else.......

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Players
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I only feel slighty social when I'm drunk, otherwise I barely say anything, and mostly I play aircraft carriers. In my case I don't know how to teamwork. I have 4500 battles or so but only 44 in divisions.

I like to play Cvs because I can do more for the team than any other ship. Without having to enter into divisions or coordinating with anyone. (When I find myself in 2 vs 2 carrier battle sometimes I help the friendly carrier if I see him on danger or if he is attacking with his fighters, but I don't rely on that, it's mostly a "ok... The only way to win it's to defeat these two carriers by myself")

Ocasionally (when I was drunk, of course), I wanted to join a division, I used the option "looking for a division" specifically saying I play Zuiho in the comments. Every single time I ended in teams which wanted to play clan wars.

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Beta Tester, Players
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Jeez, another opening post that is on the epic scale of a novella. No idea what you wrote, but I thumbed it down because anything longer than a few sentences is definitely too long and therefore bad :)

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[SM0KE]
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No idea what you wrote either - skiving between spreadsheets! You get a +1 for a splendid avatar picture though - ermine, if I'm not mistaken?

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Players
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Would join a clan but i have uni stuff and i can't be arsed with divs for same reason. After the 24th ill have a lot more freetime.

 

eve online is great if you live in a basement or can keep your pc going during work doing monotonous tasks.

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[BLITZ]
Modder
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1 hour ago, Arakus said:

Thats another weekly typical nonsense thread from "Drama Queen", many bla bla and nothing else.......

just added one thing

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13 minutes ago, principat121 said:

just added one thing

you sure it is weekly? my perception is something like 2-3days..

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[IRQ]
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The game is entirely social. Just look at all those ships sailing together in a small cluster, usually towards the back end of the map. Moving like sheep in a herd.

 

Then again, I'm the antisocial one. I'm the one camping alone in the middle of the map. Especially if it's Epicentre. No one's even within my gun range then.

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[DAVY]
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what gets me about all these threads he makes is that he never comes back and contributes anything else, dumps and runs...

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Interesting read.

 

I too found the social aspect of this game odd. Firstly, by noticing there is a keyboard shortcut specifically to exclaim a (censored) profanity. I then noticed that to message a player I need to add it to my contacts, wait for a battle to end, search the name in the contacts, and only then I can message. In game there is so much to track that messages or communication that does not have a visual representation is mostly ignored or considered a hindrance. You can create a division and invite people to it, but it comes as an obtrusive large pop up box in battle that the invitee is forced to address, and again more likely to consider a hindrance. There are no inbuilt voice chat tools so a direct interaction that does not involve typing requires third party software. This in turn means that those without the ability to use that functionality are rejected from cooperative activities. The game the creates a clan system that is no more than a micro farming component that provides a new game mode to only a select few members, at specific restricted time periods of the day and only if the leader is present.

 

This has honestly been the least social game I have played, which is surprising as being a F2P game it relies on the social component to be sustainable. To this day I do not understand why it's easier to report a player than it is to simply send a message to them. It almost encourages absolutism in interactions instead of promoting a more pondered approach to social interaction.

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[HABIT]
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8 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

Teamwork, more traditionally represented in MOBA style games, is another example of highly effective "good" social interaction design.

 

Because MOBA style games like LoL or DOTA feature so much more "good social interactions" than WoWS with their toxic community and ingame chat. :Smile_teethhappy:

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Well, it depends a lot. It is certainly more social than cs for example. What I have come to notice is that two things help the social component:

 

1. Forums. Though there have been situations in which I would have liked to yell the ears off of a certain Martian, in general people are nice to talk to and make for fun team mates or enemies. 

2. (Good) Clans. Ever since the last season of CBs ended I have noticed a lot more respect coming my way due to the tag I'm wearing. Especially funny is that nobody in ranked so far has questioned my tactical decisions at all. Oh and then there is the social component of the clan itself. 

 

Wanna see cancer? Play wot. 

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[QTAZ]
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9 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

And playing a specific ship does not 'say anything about you (except maybe Asashio and radar CA).
 

- Toxicity is still prevalent

Man, you put so much effort only to prove your kind is the toxic problem of the game's social sphere. Stigmatizing people because they play a ship you don't like is a real proof of maturity and being social & friendly. Get out with this crap thread.

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[THESO]
[THESO]
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Too long OP..

Too long again..

 

Write just a few sentences to give your BRIEF idea, then ask for people's ideas.

If people join, then you can elaborate on your ideas more in the replys..

 

Please..

Too long..

ain't nobody got time for that!

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[SCRUB]
[SCRUB]
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9 hours ago, Sargento_YO said:

I only feel slighty social when I'm drunk, otherwise I barely say anything, and mostly I play aircraft carriers. In my case I don't know how to teamwork. I have 4500 battles or so but only 44 in divisions.

I like to play Cvs because I can do more for the team than any other ship. Without having to enter into divisions or coordinating with anyone. (When I find myself in 2 vs 2 carrier battle sometimes I help the friendly carrier if I see him on danger or if he is attacking with his fighters, but I don't rely on that, it's mostly a "ok... The only way to win it's to defeat these two carriers by myself")

Ocasionally (when I was drunk, of course), I wanted to join a division, I used the option "looking for a division" specifically saying I play Zuiho in the comments. Every single time I ended in teams which wanted to play clan wars.

Well thats not a problem then  SCRUBS only play when drunk............................ like any good sailor we drink Rum... the officers drink Gin

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[ONE2]
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Weel, it's not like being anti-social is hardcoded in the game design or something. That is something, which the players bring in all by themselves. But of course, one might be tempted to ask... What kind of a no-life mother*[edited]git just stays home to play computer games all day instead of going out socializing, getting drunk and meeting chicks and stuff like normal people??? ... Not to worry lads, i know I'm one of those too.:Smile_Default:

 

Of course, some additional incentive could be added, like an occasional power outage or CPU meltdown after excessive gaming - OR an infallible regulatory component to pull the plug on one's computer every now and then, like a wife (I can vouch for this one, works every d*amn time and no override - Most effective) to encourage increased social activity but other wise...:Smile_bajan2:

geek.jpg.0415de3bdaa85bcbe7c91f6e3f692094.jpg

 

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[UNICS]
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@KarmaQU_EU

I like your topics.

They're all like: "WoWs doesn't have enough puzzle-platformer elements. Look at Limbo and FEZ, both great games and they have much more puzzle-platformer elements than WoWs."

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[UNICS]
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Why did my WR drop after getting the V IRL ?

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[UTW]
Weekend Tester, In AlfaTesters
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As soon as I read the title, I knew who was the author.

 

Dude, just quit this game. It can't satisfy you. Go write a book or something about how you would want your game to be, I'm sure it will be a bestseller (not).

 

 

Also, given I'm in at least four WoWS-related Discord, two of them being international, and one being my clan with friends I made playing WOWS and I now know quite a bit IRL too... very antisocial game I guess

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[SERBS]
Alpha Tester, Players, In AlfaTesters
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Ah, it's a DramaQueenEU again. 

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