Asashio and Teamplay

[Pikkozoikum]

47 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Asashio cannot play Clan Battles. And if you can't make Shimakaze work in competitive, then it might be a good sign to evaluate the choice of ship and prepare a ship that better suits you for next season or adapt the playstyle to be more useful, whichever conclusion you might arrive at.

 

If you get thrown into a match where there only is one BB per side and you take out the single enemy BB, then yes, you took out one enemy. In such matchups though, BBs matter far less, because the fewer BBs there are, the more freedom cruisers have and the more they can dominate. So, that single BB kill isn't that groundbreaking, given BBs inherently are the class with least utility only bringing damage and durability to the table. If the BB is lower tier, then you actually didn't even trade well, though in general it is questionable whether that single BB kill makes up for your team being down half a DD from the start. As a top tier DD, you also can cope with being worse than most other DDs in the matchup and the enemy likely has a less limited boat with more fighting power.

Matchmaker goes by tier and class, not by nation.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Also, it's going offtopic, but it should be worthwhile to take into consideration a few things when talking about Yamato-class vs carriers:

• The role of aviation was underestimated by all major powers at the beginning of the conflict and before. It's why for example the naval treaties in the interwar era deemed it perfectly fine to convert battleships and battlecruisers into carriers, considering them less problematic this way. Only during the war, aviation showed its influence and here, the Japanese were kind of among the pioneers, with the establishment of the Kido Butai, the sinking of Force Z and the attack on Pearl Harbour (influenced by the RN attack on Taranto). To say that Japan was negligient of the role of aviation is a bit misleading, when in the general context noone appreciated it to the degree they should have.
• Similarly, while the Yamato-class was being constructed, the IJN did construct the Shokaku-class carriers and later the Taihou, for their time quite modern designs that were pretty capable. As to why the IJN built the Yamato-class instead of building more carriers, it might be worth considering that the general thought among most naval powers was that BBs win the decisive battles and that the IJN upon exiting the naval treaties had already 2 large carriers from the 20s modernised in the 30s (Akagi and Kaga) and two relatively modern carriers built under the treaty limitations (Souryuu and Hiryuu), which were equally matched to what most other major naval powers had. In battleships however, the IJN had four venerable battlecruiser reclassified battleships (Kongou-class), which they wanted to replace as soon as possible with a proper cruiser killer design, 4 pretty dated battleships of the Fusou and Ise-class and two battleships of the Nagato-class. Compared to the plentitude of ships the US and the British had of these types, which typically were more modern too. The Yamatos in their quality were to follow the overall Japanese plan to outclass the enemy in quality and thus make do with only building few battleships, not a ton of them.
• As soon as the war showed carriers to be valuable, the major powers all shifted priorities to this new type of vessel. The IJN was no different, abandonning construction of all additional BBs and instead ordering first the G-15 design of an improved Taihou (the Hakuryu ingame) and then falling back to the Unryuu-class design, which was a cheap design to get by with the limits the war imposed as Japan's situation worsened.
• In Japanese considerations, the war was supposed to be short, with a quick expansion, forcing the enemy to the table for peace after a decisive battle. Leading figures of war planning like Yamamoto were aware that this was the only way to "win". Thus, it should be considered how the Yamato-class impacted the balance of power in the Pacific in the early war, where they provided a much needed boost to the IJN BB force, while the Japanese naval aviation was already top notch for the time. Had the USN acted according to the Japanese plan (and its own pre-war plans) and given a decisive battle, it might have allowed the Yamato-class to play a decisive role. Overall, this never played out this way and only as the war dragged on, the BBs became increasingly outclassed by carriers, especially as the Essex-class started entering the stage. By then, the IJN could have used the Yamato-class funding maybe to build 3 more Taihous, it would have hardly mattered in a balance of power of 4 Taihous vs dozens of Essex-class CVs. And the Japanese weren't utter morons to entrust all their hopes into this, for they felt pressured into this war by the US. While it is up for debate whether the oil embargo and the "unbearable" consequences constitute a valid reason for starting another war in the area and while exploring the complex situation of the time in detail would derail this thread even further, it might be fair assessment to say that the Japanese acted rationally from the knowledge they had and that their assessment of the value of ship types was not necessarily any more backwards than any other navy.
• During the war, battleships still posed a credible threat to carriers, especially early war, when carrier tactics were still based on peacetime training. As late as 1944, surface engagements played an important role in the Battle of Leyte and heavy IJN forces did threaten important American forces. So, the Yamato-class wasn't exactly a ship without any value, even if the ship did not do much. Like the Tirpitz, the ship mostly did not achieve a lot because of the overall limitations of Axis forces and how the war developed. They did however constitute both a certain degree of Fleet-in-Being and for both the Allies put in extra effort to make sure these ships were sunk, to remove the threat they posed.

Lastly, none of the ships the IJN constructed was built solely for propaganda. The Yamato itself was shrouded in such a veil of secrecy that it became a myth first in the navy among those who witnessed her and in the post-war era when the sacrifice of the Yamato was kind of glorified and seen as symbolic for the declining favours of the Japanese war situation. During the construction of Yamato, the ships were obscured by trying to declare their cost as just another batch of Kageros to make them seem less significant, the gun caliber was understated, the details on the ship were only revealed post-war and even then only after several years, as early on the designers tried hard to destroy any plans. It would appear reasonable that the IJN did not build ships just for propaganda, given that as early as the aftermath of the Russo-Japanese war and the formulation of the 8-8 fleet plans, the IJN had to battle against the economic limitations of the Japanese budget, so they had to try get the most out of the money they had and the treaty limits they got. There was no room for investing in just some bragging rights, every vessel would need to give its utmost (which is why ships like the Kongous were retained until they sunk, as their replacements were costly) to make up for the lack in quantity. If the Japanese did try to manipulate the public image, it typically involved understating the value of ships, first to avoid admitting that they violated treaty limitations (like on the Mogamis, which were given the 155 mm guns only so they could be listed as light cruisers with nominal displacement of 10,000 tons), later to avoid showing what they considered the ace up their sleeve.

 

But I bet if these ships had not figured into the actual plan to win the war, then the Imperial Diet would never have funded them, just like they refused to fund the excessive naval budget proposals before, given how they had to finance also the army (who hated the Navy and competed for funding) and generally avoid bancruptcy (which is why the 8-8 fleet got originally declined, as it would have cost more than the Empire could've paid).

 

On-topic part of this: The DDs were generally designed like pretty much all ship classes to be outclassing enemy DDs in all categories, thus getting 6 guns and more torpedo tubes with better torpedoes. They were to act in a decisive battle torpedoing the enemy fleet from stand-off ranges, but not just BBs, but all ships. I'd say, arguing the Asashio is an expression of IJN naval doctrine flies in the face of the doctrine that all ships would need to be able to do their best and make up for their limited numbers.

I disagree. 7vs6 is better than 7vs7. It's also the worst case to have only one bb. The Asashio is really good.

I play Shima pretty well, but that's not how balancing works. The ships have to be competitive, not the player has to make it competitve with his own skill. Too bad that I'm rank 1, would like to play the Asashio in ranked.

And the Asashio is not bad, if she can't use the torps, the guns are better than the Kagero guns and I often fought against other dds. Just because other ships can use their torps against dd, doesn't mean they will hit.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I disagree. 7vs6 is better than 7vs7. It's also the worst case to have only one bb. The Asashio is really good.

I play Shima pretty well, but that's not how balancing works. The ships have to be competitive, not the player has to make it competitve with his own skill. Too bad that I'm rank 1, would like to play the Asashio in ranked.

And the Asashio is not bad, if she can't use the torps, the guns are better than the Kagero guns and I often fought against other dds. Just because other ships can use their torps against dd, doesn't mean they will hit.

Yeah, but every other DD at T8 has an easier time getting more than 1 kill or doing damage to more than one ship. Being the person that can kill 1 ship and then just be an extra set of eyes is pretty much minimal investment and puts way more emphasis on the rest of the team being good and going the rest of the way than on you being able to carry for players who might be worse if necessary. And getting at least one kill (or the equivalent in effective damage) in Ranked isn't exactly hard, if you know what you are doing. Just, any other DD plays properly even afterwards.

 

If you complain about Shima being not good enough, why do you claim the Asashio is a good ship? My point is, if Shima does not perform for you, then either the ship is unsuited for the game mode (in which case, try to get a different ship), the ship is not suited to your playstyle (get another ship or adapt your playstyle) or you simply are not good with the ship (in which case, one has to work on ones skills). And even if it is not 2 or 3, the first option still doesn't excuse Asashio. Just because other bad ships might exist (not saying Shima is bad) does not mean that this ship is excused for being beyond terrible. Also because few other ships are as toxic as this floating piece of junk.

 

The guns are the same as the Kagero guns. And I know the Kagero guns. I shot at DDs and cruisers with them before. Typically as a distraction, as some silly support or because it was an act of desperation. These guns have dpm so terrible, if you get a kill with them, it isn't really up to your great skills, it's just because the enemy was dumb enough to get killed or they had so few hp any DD could have killed them.

 

Also, if I got a cent for every time someone brings up "But it has guns and they are decent. I killed x with them"...

[MK1D]

32 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

The guns are the same as the Kagero guns. And I know the Kagero guns. I shot at DDs and cruisers with them before. Typically as a distraction, as some silly support or because it was an act of desperation. These guns have dpm so terrible, if you get a kill with them, it isn't really up to your great skills, it's just because the enemy was dumb enough to get killed or they had so few hp any DD could have killed them.

10,9km range on the Asashio makes all the difference, with the Asashio you can actually smoke up and shot people effectively.

[HaachamaShipping]

53 minutes ago, MK1D said:

10,9km range on the Asashio makes all the difference, with the Asashio you can actually smoke up and shot people effectively.

The ship has 5.4 km concealment. You can get closer and smoke up there. It's not like that window between firing range and detection range was ever an issue on the Kagero. What is an issue with these guns is that if you fire the guns, they have pretty bad sustained damage and you'll likely do paltry amounts of damage compared to any other DD.

 

Not to mention, the lower gun range on IJN torpedo boats is not always a drawback. I havent researched or bought a range upgrade since Isokaze (and I wouldn't buy it on the Isokaze again), because frankly, the IJN guns are not a great offensive weapon for sustained fire. If I have to use them in a sustained fashion, I likely am being chased, then the range doesn't matter. If I need to land a fire on a ship that I hit with a torpedo, I just go a bit closer, the DD has the concealment. What the reduced range does great however, is that if you actually go for a few shots and there is no smoke around, or you killed a low-health ship opportunistically, the detection range bloom is quite a bit more manageable. Even on a hybrid like the Harekaze, where the guns are pretty good, I appreciate the 9.4 km range, which allow for quickly falling off the radar again after killing an enemy DD, as often noone else is that close.

 

It's why the first iteration of Asashio that was a Kagero with Shinonome guns and 10.9 km range was so utterly silly, because why would you want guns that not only are terrible in killing things but also give a far greater detectability penalty if you ever fire them. It feels like some holdover from times when stealthfiring was actually a thing.

[LOZFFVII]

22 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Just because other ships can use their torps against dd, doesn't mean they will hit.

Which would you rather have:

A 5% chance of getting £100, without having to pay anything?

Or:

A 0% chance of getting £100, for the low, low sum of £40?

Make your decision.

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

Which would you rather have:

A 5% chance of getting £100, without having to pay anything?

Or:

A 0% chance of getting £100, for the low, low sum of £40?

Make your decision.

you have to add, that you will have a 10% for getting a car

[HaachamaShipping]

18 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

you have to add, that you will have a 10% for getting a car

The example was to show that even a low chance of hitting something beats the utter inability to do the same. If you want to talk about killing BBs meanwhile, BBs are the main torpedo target of any DD that can stealth torp and a Kagero is not exactly unsuited for making the life of BBs hard. It just is not as foolproof and a bit less of a threat because it cannot simply second line torp spam, so less gifted players tend to get themselves killed fast.

[LOZFFVII]

21 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

you have to add, that you will have a 10% for getting a car

Okay, but then the free option also has a 10% chance for getting a car.

[Pikkozoikum]

13 minutes ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

Okay, but then the free option also has a 10% chance for getting a car.

No, they have only 5% max. Asashio torps hit way better and are safer than most torps. My hit chance with the Asashio torps is the highest of all torp hit chance. And I often randomly drop them on enemy or allied cruisers to scare them ^^'

[Infiriel]

15.05.2018 o 20:31, Riselotte napisał:

Yeah, but every other DD at T8 has an easier time getting more than 1 kill or doing damage to more than one ship. Being the person that can kill 1 ship and then just be an extra set of eyes is pretty much minimal investment

Yes, and no.

I found out that Asashio isn`t really meant to play as "Any other T8 DD". In fact you mustn`t rush for caps, and try to win a DD skirmish, as you do in your typical DD, unless you can comfortably outspot the enemy DD.

It`s most effective at supporting cruisers, which in turn support Asashio against enemy DD`s.

 

You must hug your cruisers, as you would hug your waifu, and smoke them up at every smoke cooldown (as needed).

Asashio`s job is to make your CA`s life as easy as possible, so they can make the life of your BB`s, and DD`s as easy as possible.

It can strike directly, but i don`t think it`s really meant to.

Consider it as Kitakami v.2.0.

 

[HaachamaShipping]

11 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

No, they have only 5% max. Asashio torps hit way better and are safer than most torps. My hit chance with the Asashio torps is the highest of all torp hit chance. And I often randomly drop them on enemy or allied cruisers to scare them ^^'

Thing is, killing a BB is not equivalent to getting a car. Killing or often just heavily damaging BBs is more like some 50 Euro, if the jackpot of hitting a DD and killing it with 1 torp (or reducing it to a oneshot) is 100 Euro, as DD who typically cannot repair and has more utility value is of greater importance than a BB. Insofar, a Kagero has typically some slim chance against DDs, not too bad chances against cruisers and decent changes of damaging BBs. An Asashio meanwhile has good chances vs BBs, but no chance at all against BBs. That's like 5% vs DDs, 20% vs cruisers and 50% vs BBs compared to maybe 0% against first two and 70%-80% against BBs. The fact you can kill a BB easier shouldn't be overhyped, because even for a normal IJN DD, hitting BBs was the easiest of their tasks and quite achievable, so you trade making this even easier for being unable to do the entire rest.

 

The only time the Asashio is going to be of greater use than a Kagero overall is when your base hit rate in Kagero is so low, that somehow you need an Asashio to hit BBs, at which point... well, draw the conclusions yourself.

[HaachamaShipping]

Just now, Infiriel said:

Yes, and no.

I found out that Asashio isn`t really meant to play as "Any other T8 DD". In fact you mustn`t rush for caps, and try to win a DD skirmish, as you do in your typical DD.

It`s most effective at supporting cruisers, which in turn support Asashio against enemy DD`s.

 

You must hug your cruisers, as you would hug your waifu, and smoke them up at every smoke cooldown (as needed).

Consider it as Kitakami v.2.0.

Kitakami was a cruiser though and it took a cruiser spot and not a precious DD spot. Also, Kitakami could hit anything.

[Pikkozoikum]

Asashio pretty strong

[LOZFFVII]

18 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Asashio pretty wrong

FTFY

[LOZFFVII]

Ironically:

Shame, I was planning to bully him with my superior firepower.

Now who's winning a car?

Spoiler

We won that battle, by the way.

 

[HaachamaShipping]

4 hours ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

Shame, I was planning to bully him with my superior firepower.

I sadly only ever got to meet an Asashio in a gun battle with my Harekaze twice. But these encounters were pretty much what made me post this thread.

Spoiler

Before:

After:

That's about what you can expect when these two DDs meet and both know how to use guns. Thing is, I had to sail there from the other flank to do this, because noone on that flank seemed able to and the Asashio sank 1 BB, two more would flood to death. Which is why I said, Asashio with its low skill floor and low skill ceiling enables potatoes to have far more influence than they should have (this guy was obviously not potato), as merely by being alive, the Asashio is a potential threat that is hard to ignore for anyone who wants their team to win.

[Pikkozoikum]

9 hours ago, Riselotte said:

I sadly only ever got to meet an Asashio in a gun battle with my Harekaze twice. But these encounters were pretty much what made me post this thread.

  Reveal hidden contents

Before:

After:

That's about what you can expect when these two DDs meet and both know how to use guns. Thing is, I had to sail there from the other flank to do this, because noone on that flank seemed able to and the Asashio sank 1 BB, two more would flood to death. Which is why I said, Asashio with its low skill floor and low skill ceiling enables potatoes to have far more influence than they should have (this guy was obviously not potato), as merely by being alive, the Asashio is a potential threat that is hard to ignore for anyone who wants their team to win.

I shot once a Gearing 50% of her HP until she escaped, while I lost 200 HP. The skill is often different and as Asashio I go often to gun fights, but I pick them, or I retreat .

It's funny ,that it's called "selfish" dd, but this is the dd, where I earn the most compliments (is that the english term for the +1 stuff?)

 

14 hours ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

Ironically:

Shame, I was planning to bully him with my superior firepower.

Now who's winning a car?

  Reveal hidden contents

We won that battle, by the way.

 

Me?

 

 

 

 

Here a Screenshot of a Game, my base EP are not that amazing, but this game was so hilarious, if you look at the ships, which I damaged (except the Tirpitz, just a side effect)

 

 

[ShinGetsu]

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

shot once a Gearing 50% of her HP until she escaped, while I lost 200 HP. The skill is often different and as Asashio I go often to gun fights, but I pick them, or I retreat .

That's called a Dumbass Gearing.

It's just the standard FFA level. Still doesn't change the fact you would have done better against that same Gearing with any other DD.

If you manage to get 50% of a Gearing with an Asashio, you would have killed him with Akizuki.

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

That's called a Dumbass Gearing.

It's just the standard FFA level. Still doesn't change the fact you would have done better against that same Gearing with any other DD.

If you manage to get 50% of a Gearing with an Asashio, you would have killed him with Akizuki.

Just like most torp hits against another dds ;)

[HaachamaShipping]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Just like most torp hits against another dds ;)

Depends. If you hit a DD that sat still in their smoke broadside on, yeah, that is dumb and shouldn't have happened with skilled people. If you manage to nuke that other DD by properly anticipating its movement though and catching them off-guard, that happens. Especially to the more sluggish DDs like an Akizuki. Maybe not with Shima 20 km torpedoes, but with any torpedoes that have a decent speed and concealment.

 

It takes far more stupidity than that for a Gearing to lose a gunfight though against the second worst gunboat it could meet and as ShinGetsu stated, pretty much any DD with decent guns would have killed that Gearing. 

[Pikkozoikum]

18 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Depends. If you hit a DD that sat still in their smoke broadside on, yeah, that is dumb and shouldn't have happened with skilled people. If you manage to nuke that other DD by properly anticipating its movement though and catching them off-guard, that happens. Especially to the more sluggish DDs like an Akizuki. Maybe not with Shima 20 km torpedoes, but with any torpedoes that have a decent speed and concealment.

 

It takes far more stupidity than that for a Gearing to lose a gunfight though against the second worst gunboat it could meet and as ShinGetsu stated, pretty much any DD with decent guns would have killed that Gearing. 

Hitting dd's with torps is unlikely, so I don't miss that with the Asashio. That ships performs really good and I got a lot compliments for teamplay

[HaachamaShipping]

25 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Hitting dd's with torps is unlikely, so I don't miss that with the Asashio. That ships performs really good and I got a lot compliments for teamplay

Well, cruisers also still exist... A rare species these days, but still...

[Pikkozoikum]

12 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Well, cruisers also still exist... A rare species these days, but still...

Sure, but my Asashio is my best performing dd (only IJN) except in shooting planes.

[LOZFFVII]

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I shot once a Gearing 50% of her HP until she escaped, while I lost 200 HP. The skill is often different and as Asashio I go often to gun fights, but I pick them, or I retreat .

It's funny ,that it's called "selfish" dd, but this is the dd, where I earn the most compliments (is that the english term for the +1 stuff?)

You got lucky that the enemy team had a terrible player in that Gearing. You come up against me (or literally anyone competent) in a Gearing and you will sink, no doubts.

Quote

Me?

No. It's me, obviously. For successfully torpedoing an enemy Asashio I wasn't even aiming at (I knew he was around, but I didn't know he was going to try to smoke up that Nagato I launched them at). Thus proving that torpedoes that do hit destroyers are more valuable than those that don't.

Trust me when I say that I hit enemy DDs with my torpedoes often enough to make being able to do so worthwhile. Feels like it's at least once a week.

I also hit cruisers with my torpedoes with alarming regularity, another priority target that Asashio can't hit.

(Oh, and the reason I knew Asashio was over on that side of the map? His torpedoes swam underneath me earlier on in the match. Had he been given non-toxic torpedoes our positions would've been reversed)

Quote

Here a Screenshot of a Game, my base EP are not that amazing, but this game was so hilarious, if you look at the ships, which I damaged (except the Tirpitz, just a side effect)

 

That picture proves nothing. Nowhere does it actually say what ship you were playing at the time.

As far as I can tell, you had a bad game in an Atago. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

You keep on harping on about how you keep getting complimented for your games in Asashio, but realistically that isn't because of the ship, it's because you're doing things that ALL DESTROYERS should be doing.

The problem here is, you're so blinded by your need to prove to the playerbase as a whole that the Asashio isn't a toxic waste dump of a ship that you flat out refuse to realise that you could be doing exactly the same thing you do in your Asashio in ANY OTHER DESTROYER IN THE GAME (apart from the Russians, but they're not really destroyers anyway).

Do you want to know what I've been getting complimented for recently? Smoking up cruisers and killing Asashios, so you're not really special for getting compliments.

[VC381]

8 hours ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

The problem here is, you're so blinded by your need to prove to the playerbase as a whole that the Asashio isn't a toxic waste dump of a ship

 

And you're not blinded by your need to prove that it is?