Asashio and Teamplay

[LOZFFVII]

21 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Okinawa, Islands of ice, hotspot, ocean, atlantic, shards, neighbours

I'll let you have those, I want to say that strategies that only work from one spawn don't count, but there are plenty of those already in this game so that wouldn't be fair.

35 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

loop

You're going to have to point out what angles you are talking about for this one. I don't see them.

38 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

warriors path

You mean the map where BBs avoid A like a plague and head to B anyway? To shoot torpedoes at B from C you'll have to be right on the opposite edge or shooting down the gap, neither are all that viable.

42 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

north/northern lights

Ahahahahahahahahah. No.

I think there's a good reason most BBs avoid B cap (or whatever cap it is in the updated one - same place different designation).

45 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

land of fire, trap, trident

If I'm not mistaken all of these are big fat 'nope's. Or you have to deal with extremely tight gaps in order to pull it off. Especially the latter two. Like seriously? How in the hell do you figure?

[Xevious_Red]

16 minutes ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

You're going to have to point out what angles you are talking about for this one. I don't see them.

B cap can get angles on the north of A/C. Theres two big blind spots (2 large islands) but otherwise its ok. A cap to back of B is ok from either spawn, BB dont tend to get too close to B

 

21 minutes ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

You mean the map where BBs avoid A like a plague and head to B anyway? To shoot torpedoes at B from C you'll have to be right on the opposite edge or shooting down the gap, neither are all that 

Then we have very different experiences with this map - for me A attracts BB like mad, followed by a lemming train through C

25 minutes ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

 

Ahahahahahahahahah. No.

I think there's a good reason most BBs avoid B cap (or whatever cap it is in the updated one - same place different designation).

Most BB in my experience still to the "home" spawn on the new layout. This is reachable from B. In the old layout they tend to lemming to A or hang around behind C

 

Trap you can get A and C from B, eapecially now they added extra gaps in the land masses.

Land of fire its mostly A-B as C is too guarded off. 

Trident I havent played with the Asashio so Im looking at the angles; B-C looks doable.

 

Forgot mountain range - thats actually quite open unless all the BB go into the islands on the 1/2 line

 

 

 

So anyway, I have a counter question for all those that feel the kagero/harekaze is better because of its torps being able to hit DD:

 

What are your tips for torping other DD? Because ive always found that torps dont hugely come into play in DD vs DD - you wont ever hit a loyang/german DD with torps due to hydro, and the combination of high detection IJN torps and the fast rudder shifts of DD means most can just dodge when they show up.

Sure you can torp a bad DD that stops still in smoke, but bad DD tend to get killed quickly anyway

[LOZFFVII]

31 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

B cap can get angles on the north of A/C. Theres two big blind spots (2 large islands) but otherwise its ok. A cap to back of B is ok from either spawn, BB dont tend to get too close to B

Nah, I can't see that working somehow. Too many Radar Cruisers go to B anyway.

31 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Then we have very different experiences with this map - for me A attracts BB like mad, followed by a lemming train through C

No, for me all BBs prefer to go to C where it is open and those who spawn near A just make do with heading to B.

31 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Most BB in my experience still to the "home" spawn on the new layout. This is reachable from B. In the old layout they tend to lemming to A or hang around behind C

I will admit I didn't consider the 'home' cap as one of the caps you can torp when I laughed at the idea.

31 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Trap you can get A and C from B, eapecially now they added extra gaps in the land masses.

Land of fire its mostly A-B as C is too guarded off. 

Trident I havent played with the Asashio so Im looking at the angles; B-C looks doable.

Trap: sure you can get straight shots at A and C themselves, but you don't really have good shots at BBs going to those caps. Not to mention that most DDs going to B cap go there to be farmed by radar cruisers anyway. *Insert It's a Trap! meme here*

LoF: Only from south spawn and only if BBs go down the channel between the islands? Again, I find BBs try to avoid that channel, or at least go around the handy-dandy island that sits there.

Trident: B-C from north spawn? Still a large island obscuring the BBs there. I've also seen more than my fair share of BBs proposing to the eastern border, getting married and getting a reasonably-priced two-up-two-down rather than be easy pickings for B cap.

31 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Forgot mountain range - thats actually quite open unless all the BB go into the islands on the 1/2 line

I'm surprised you forgot it, too. I feel like most BBs prefer to play around with the island chain until the cops arrest them on that map.

31 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

So anyway, I have a counter question for all those that feel the kagero/harekaze is better because of its torps being able to hit DD:

 

What are your tips for torping other DD? Because ive always found that torps dont hugely come into play in DD vs DD - you wont ever hit a loyang/german DD with torps due to hydro, and the combination of high detection IJN torps and the fast rudder shifts of DD means most can just dodge when they show up.

Sure you can torp a bad DD that stops still in smoke, but bad DD tend to get killed quickly anyway

Torping DDs in a knife-fight?

2-4km away is best.

Gut instinct.

Never aim for the white line. Try to predict where your opponent will turn either to get his own torpedoes away or get all his guns on target. Try to fake him out, go broadside and stop shooting for a moment and watch what he does. There's always a chance that they will tunnel-vision in and forget to take evasive manoeuvres (as I have done on many occasion that ended with me sunk).

Gallant's single-launch (or even any of the RN cruisers, if you eff up and let a DD get close to you) is particularly effective at hitting enemy DDs, due to the unpredictable patterns you can create.

It's not much in terms of advice, but I hope you get an idea what works for me.

[KarmaQU_EU]

Well let’s just say I like Shiratsuyu more than Asashio, Shiratsuyu has both 2x4 plus reload boost, and can torp anything, and it still had a good 5 guns. It’s got 10km torps which are not bad (lots of ppl make do with less), and its concealment is really good.

 

But I can also say some things Asashio can do, Shira cannot. Especially in higher tier games. It’s not that Shira or Harekaze can do things Asashio cannot, because in some ways Asashio can also do things they cannot too. But we don’t say they are flawed and Asashio is not, instead the other way around. 

 

Now imagine if there was a DD who could manual fire single torpedoes. Who has torpedoes with variable depth and even speed depending on range, but can hit anything within certain range sections. Or who has few, slow torpedors and very bad guns that can only shoot AP, but those are magnetic/acoustic semi-homing torpedoes.

 

Would we then say “this is the ideal DD, all other DDs are flawed”?

 

We have our imaginations limited by WG, but that doesn’t mean we should judge by that. We can say “all DDs are flawed”, not just Asashio, or equally say “Asashio is no more flawed than anything else”, or “not the most ‘flawed’ thing out there”.

[Sub_Human]

12 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

I said before and I say again ...

 

In a bad game, or a bad matchup, Asashio will perform no worse than any other ship facing a bad matchup or having a bad day.

But in a good game, or a good matchup, the Asashio can put scores from "good games" with other ships to utter shame.

 

And in those "good games", I doubt the Asashio was so useless that it contributed nothing to its team in sense of teamplay.

Wow! Well said! 

Its funny that you can summerize something in 6 lines of text that puts other peoples walls-of-text to shame.

 

Makes me want to re-read your walls of text.

 

 

[KarmaQU_EU]

6 hours ago, Systergummi said:

Wow! Well said! 

Its funny that you can summerize something in 6 lines of text that puts other peoples walls-of-text to shame.

 

Makes me want to re-read your walls of text.

Edited: sry but you really don’t want to read my textwalls. 

Dont bother yourself over them. Seriously.

[HaachamaShipping]

3 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

What are your tips for torping other DD? Because ive always found that torps dont hugely come into play in DD vs DD - you wont ever hit a loyang/german DD with torps due to hydro, and the combination of high detection IJN torps and the fast rudder shifts of DD means most can just dodge when they show up.

Sure you can torp a bad DD that stops still in smoke, but bad DD tend to get killed quickly anyway

First off, bad DDs might have a tendency to dying fast, but it is still a kill that's worth securing. If the DD survives, the alternative is fighting them in the open, which is less ideal. Might also be that it scares them out of their cloud, that something else passes the cloud or that the torpedoes pass through and hit something behind. It also might hit someone complacent, if they don't know you are around. Might be you catch their side. Might be they panic and run aground and eat a torp. Unless you have better targets, it is typically not bad being able to torpedo smokes. Some targets like Akizuki also are far less maneuverable than would be preferable for dodging torpedoes. If you have a decent idea of where in the smoke the enemy is, stack your torpedoes almost ontop of each other, to create less chance for gaps to fit through. If not, just spreading them out might be easier.

 

For DD vs DD knife fights, torpedoes are pretty much launched at point blank, might be good for ambushes. More of an act of desperation, but it can work. Again, works better on something like an Akizuki or a Russian DD than a Benson.

 

Lastly, torpedoes should be kept in mind of as also a deterrent. If you have torpedoes, most enemies that can get hit will treat carefully. If you have none, you can get rushed in your smoke far more easily. 

2 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

Well let’s just say I like Shiratsuyu more than Asashio, Shiratsuyu has both 2x4 plus reload boost, and can torp anything, and it still had a good 5 guns. It’s got 10km torps which are not bad (lots of ppl make do with less), and its concealment is really good.

 

But I can also say some things Asashio can do, Shira cannot. Especially in higher tier games. It’s not that Shira or Harekaze can do things Asashio cannot, because in some ways Asashio can also do things they cannot too. But we don’t say they are flawed and Asashio is not, instead the other way around. 

 

Now imagine if there was a DD who could manual fire single torpedoes. Who has torpedoes with variable depth and even speed depending on range, but can hit anything within certain range sections. Or who has few, slow torpedors and very bad guns that can only shoot AP, but those are magnetic/acoustic semi-homing torpedoes.

 

Would we then say “this is the ideal DD, all other DDs are flawed”?

 

We have our imaginations limited by WG, but that doesn’t mean we should judge by that. We can say “all DDs are flawed”, not just Asashio, or equally say “Asashio is no more flawed than anything else”, or “not the most ‘flawed’ thing out there”.

Your examples all are either garbage or OP, depending on execution.

 

And yes, Asashio can do certain things a Kagero or a Harekaze cannot do, though mostly that is it can do one thing better than its peers. The flaw in the design is that it can this one thing better and it can do certain other things not at all and the specialisation in one area does not allow for compensation in other areas. If Asashio just had no guns, but 10 km 100 knot conventional torpedoes, one could argue about how this torpedo specialisation might make up for the lack in gun power, as you really now have a decent shot to just torp kill whatever you couldn't kill with guns (except aircraft). But when your torpedoes are just anti-BB weapons and you have no proper means to counter the other three classes besides the worst gunpower of any silver DD at the tier, then that's a flawed design, yes.

 

But I'm not sure you are actually going to understand this and not just try come up with some different point in your next post that has little to no connection to your previous one, to my response or to game mechanics and game balance.

2 hours ago, Systergummi said:

Wow! Well said! 

Its funny that you can summerize something in 6 lines of text that puts other peoples walls-of-text to shame.

 

Makes me want to re-read your walls of text.

 

 

Is this sarcasm?

[KarmaQU_EU]

So a class has to be able to counter every other class all at once to be “proper”?

 

Imagine is there was a ship class similar to the liberty repair ship in PvE. Now this class would have no main armament whatsoever, but probably quite a lot of AA guns, smoke, and an aoe repair aura which works the same way as its PvE version.

 

Would this ship be useless? No, it has beast AA, concealment, smoke, and repair for allies (more noticeable on ships with lower base HP).

But can it counter any other class? Not at all. It literally has no guns. It’s a CV without planes.

 

Instead, it supports its allies by repairing, providing AA, maybe spotting. It still contributes to the win. 

 

You may call this a flawed design. I call this variety and possibility. The reason we don’t have things like BCV or CAV or Kitakami or scout tenders is because ppl insist on having “traditional” all rounded shipclasses or say the game is broken. Some are so traditional they even oppose variety on consumables (ie. speed boost on French cruisers).

 

Mind you I’m not defending the Asashio, a liberty class (hypothetical) is not the same as Asashio because Asashio’s quirk causes griefing on enemies and awkwardness for teammates, while the liberty (hypothetical) is a support/defensive only gimmick.  

[BeauNidl3]

The Asashio is viable if played well and cleverly, but my conclusion after over 70 games with them in (either side or sometimes many on both) is that only about 3 of them have even the slightest clue how to use the ship.

Most won't spot, won't go near a cap despite having equal best concealment and just pointlessly spam torps in the general direction of the enemy, frequently on wide spread.

Basically exactly what I expected to the point of being even worse than I feared.

[_DeathWing_]

I think that most of those BB campers bought this ship so they can do the same thing in it - Sit back and spam torps.

 

 

[HaachamaShipping]

9 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

So a class has to be able to counter every other class all at once to be “proper”?

 

Imagine is there was a ship class similar to the liberty repair ship in PvE. Now this class would have no main armament whatsoever, but probably quite a lot of AA guns, smoke, and an aoe repair aura which works the same way as its PvE version.

 

Would this ship be useless? No, it has beast AA, concealment, smoke, and repair for allies (more noticeable on ships with lower base HP).

But can it counter any other class? Not at all. It literally has no guns. It’s a CV without planes.

 

Instead, it supports its allies by repairing, providing AA, maybe spotting. It still contributes to the win. 

 

You may call this a flawed design. I call this variety and possibility. The reason we don’t have things like BCV or CAV or Kitakami or scout tenders is because ppl insist on having “traditional” all rounded shipclasses or say the game is broken. Some are so traditional they even oppose variety on consumables (ie. speed boost on French cruisers).

 

Mind you I’m not defending the Asashio, a liberty class (hypothetical) is not the same as Asashio because Asashio’s quirk causes griefing on enemies and awkwardness for teammates, while the liberty (hypothetical) is a support/defensive only gimmick.  

The closest to this would be us getting the crap boats Anthony and Cyclone for the Dunkirk mission, but that was PvE and the opponents were pretty much what these ships could deal with. If WG brings out a liberty ship for PvE for an operation that is designed around that, it isn't a flawed design. For Random battles, this is the introduction of a whole new class of ships and would need to be accordingly tested and would receive, like all classes mirror MM, at which point it isn't as bad as a ship that sucks at the class it is and takes up a slot of that class. If say, your Liberty Ship counted as a CV, well, hell no, that would be terrible. Suddenly the enemy CV is free to wreck the entire friggin map except that AA zone around the Liberty ship and it would encourage everyone to huddle around that Liberty ship for heal and AA and thus give up map control. And everyone that dares go out can deal with being unsupported because everyone else sits back with the Liberty ship, while the braver folks are alone and CV fodder or getting mauled by the enemy team.

 

The thing is, if something counts as a certain class, it ought to be able to do a certain class' job, for it to be not terrible. Asashio is basically not good at doing a DD's job, as typically DDs are not primarily there to farm damage. If you want to farm damage, go play a BB. Also, basically all ships in WoWS have one way or another to deal with all other classes, because Rock-Paper-Scissors is a lie and most ships that struggle heavily with a certain ship type are regarded as worse for a reason. There are reasons why people prefer Missouri over Musashi, beyond the credit difference. Missouri is a BB, able to do typical BB tasks, but also can deal with DDs better than most other BBs while having American AA. Musashi can do a better job at killing BBs, but it struggles against DDs and the AA would look decent maybe if it was on the Fuso. But at least, Musashi is still somewhat viable and you just have to look out for AA support if a CV is even present. Belfast is OP, because of how well it works against all other surface ships. CVs in general are the only class that kind of fall out of this system, which is part of why the class is a mess to be balanced and scheduled to be reworked and all.

 

The reason BCV, CAV and Kitakami were never implemented or withdrawn is not because people hate variety. It's because the implementation is either difficult to balance or outright sucks. what are you going to make Ise? A T6 premium with two gun turrets and unlimited spotter plane? Or half a dozen catapult fighters? Or an actually controllable squadron of what? Is this going to be balanced vs losing two turrets? On Tone it would be even worse, because it'd be one turret loss compared to a Myoko or Mogami in exchange for aviation and it likely would end up unbalanced, because standard CAs get already ok AA and defAA and getting a catapult fighter for a turret is not exactly useful, nor would most of these ships take a fighter over a spotter plane. And what is the point of a ton of spotter planes in exchange for a turret? Meanwhile, give Tone a dive bomber squadron and behold the mini carrier that will likely lose all its planes in a carrier game or it will be absolutely silly in no carrier games. Kitakami meanwhile launched 20 torpedoes per side and ended up causing quite massive area denial, that is, when it wasn't blown out of the water as the crappy overtiered Kuma-hull it was with 3 guns and hardly the ability to stealth torp. Also, with that many torpedoes, it regularly caught friendlies, because you know, people just buy a premium and then have no clue how to use it properly. These ships all have balance issues and likely would be implemented if WG had an idea how it can be made workable, without being garbage or OP or like the Asashio, ridiculously situational. Insofar, I deem their approach of withholding the ships for now better than how they reworked Asashio or Graf Zeppelin, after their first iteration seemed crap and now they are both gimmick boats. You can have variety without completely straying out of role or making it broken crap.

[LOZFFVII]

@Riselotte

[KarmaQU_EU]

Then perhaps we can tentatively conclude “flawed” ships are not inherently a sin, it’s just they are lackluster within the current uber-balanced “traditional” game setting of WoWs that can not accommodate much creativity and variety, and all ships are expected to be all-rounders or be inferior.

[HaachamaShipping]

2 minutes ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

Then perhaps we can tentatively conclude “flawed” ships are not inherently a sin, it’s just they are lackluster within the current uber-balanced “traditional” game setting of WoWs that can not accommodate much creativity and variety, and all ships are expected to be all-rounders or be inferior.

Well, a crappy ship in WoWS is nothing new and while some ships might need a buff, you wouldn't consider it silly someone took out a certain ship. And not every ship needs to be good at everything, but it needs to be very decent at multiple things (as a generalist, for example high-tier Germans and USN), or good at one thing and passable at others (as a specialist, for example Russians and IJN). It does not need to be utterly ridiculous at one thing and hot garbage at almost everything else. However, in regards to Asashio, as laid out in my first post already, the ship isn't just lackluster from its own individual perspective. If it was just lackluster, well, then it'd be another crappy boat that you meet here and there, like, say, a Huanghe. But:

• The ship is so heavily specialised in one area that its very presence has an effect on how the match has to be approached. This is similar almost to a carrier, just that carriers get mirror matchmaking and carriers are among the most skill-based ships, so that if you notice the enemy carrier is garbage and gets shut down, you pretty much can just continue as usual. If the enemy Asashio is unaccounted for and you do not know what it is doing (it could be afk for all intents and purposes), it still cannot be ignored. It thus has far greater potential to ruin the experience for all others in the match.
• The ship in its very design caters to the unskilled and to the selfish, which is questionable whether it should be encouraged. And sure, it can teamplay, it benefits from teamplay, but it is far less capable of doing the job your team wants from a DD and encourages not doing that job.
• The ship is a premium. Noone in the world forces you to play it. If you play an utterly crap tech tree ship, it may be excused, as you might want to grind past it to a better ship (I don't know a tech tree ship though that is as limited as Asashio). Here, you pretty much bought this ship for the ship itself and there is no excuse for bringing it to a match. And if an Asashio in randoms clears out all the enemy BBs and wins, sure, nice, but if you bring this ship to Ranked, it's just unfair to your team, because it does not fit in there and you basically are just betting on the MM instead of actually seriously trying to be competitive in skill-based play.

Blatantly underpowered ships like for example Mikasa are at least at a tier where competitive play is hardly a thing and they also are rare and when they appear, they just kind of suck for their team, but that's it. Blatantly OP ships like Payfast are a bit more problematic, but at the very least, Belfast becomes OP in the hands of people who know how to abuse her consumerables, while people who potato tend to dies fast in their squishy cruiser. Belfast also is limited in where it can strike and as a DD, the one class getting countered the hardest by that ship, if you know where the Belfast is, you can act pretty freely, if you don't know, you just need to play carefully and consider options to bail. Still, Belfast was pulled for a reason. Asashio meanwhile is just a terrible design that is likely going to continue being a salt mine in so many regards, because the ship is flawed on so many levels and many of these flaws will make WG call it "balanced" and thus worth keeping in the game.

[LOZFFVII]

11 minutes ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

Then perhaps we can tentatively conclude “flawed” ships are not inherently a sin, it’s just they are lackluster within the current uber-balanced “traditional” game setting of WoWs that can not accommodate much creativity and variety, and all ships are expected to be all-rounders or be inferior.

Wow. You didn't get @Riselotte's message at all, did you?

It's not that ships are expected to be all-rounders, it's that the game must strike a delicate balance between ships being capable of doing what they need to do and being too good at doing everything or obtaining abilities from other classes of ships that make them wonky and hard to balance.

Asashio in particular is incapable of effectively contesting caps or scouting ahead for fear of meeting DDs and Cruisers which it cannot defend itself against. This is against what the ship should be doing, thus making it inferior to other DDs.

Belfast is too good at doing what a cruiser should be doing - assisting DDs/killing DDs, AA screening, etc. - in particular doing the above without even needing to come into harms way via smoke and radar combo. Thus she is overpowered (and permanently removed from sale). I would add that Nikolai I, Kamikaze and Saipan are also excellent examples of ships being overpowered due to being too good at what they need to do. I would also add that Missouri and Black are further examples of ships being overpowered compared with the rest of their class.

On the subject of variety, how would you balance ships like Ise, Tone or Kitakami? How would you make them not only fun ideas to play, but also balanced in a competitive gaming environment?

[KarmaQU_EU]

You are assuming the ppl playing Asashio will always be potatoes, while the DDs she encounters and have to contest caps against are always highly skilled with their ships. That it's always "Asashio vs the world", for but in reality she might have a gunboat DD following her or even a light cruiser, to help contest a cap, which greatly helps to counterbalance her own weaknesses. No Asashio will be stupid enough to blatantly charge ahead seeking a fight without some support.

 

Some ppl have even played Asashio in ranked and made it work. While I personally do not think Asashio is very suitable for ranked, her strengths and weaknesses are still not absolute, especially in the non-deterministic environments which is normal randoms. Theoretically it is still possible to take Huanghe out and do very well in it, but realistically it's not. There are quite a lot of better alternatives in other ships.

 

But that's the problem with Asashio. There are no alternatives to compare her with. Thus it's possible to have a theoretical rating of her, but not a conclusive rating with certainty about her. She is one step towards those "CAVs, BCVs, and 0 surviveability Kitakami" fringe cases, which unsurprisingly are theoretically horrible and weak ships, but in reality, ships which without seeing them in action we cannot make conclusions about.

 

As for "alone, Asashio cannot scout, cannot fight other DDs", that's just not the case. She's not incredibly good at solo-fighting, but she still can. And otherwise, she can exert lots of pressure even by being unseen, in the right cases, even just by spotting.

[KarmaQU_EU]

As for how I would design "fringe cases ships", I'd first improve the game mechanics so the game becomes a place capable of supporting specialized and fringe ships. Currently I do not see this game as having the infrastructure for more depth and complexity.

[Aragathor]

I hate this ship. Because the only thing it does is to punish BBs who dare to tank damage and play their role, not the border hugging window lickers.

There is no point to this ship but to enforce static camping and passivity.

[HaachamaShipping]

7 minutes ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

You are assuming the ppl playing Asashio will always be potatoes, while the DDs she encounters and have to contest caps against are always highly skilled with their ships.

If the enemy is a team of morons, you'd be able to win in any ship. Thing is, you are betting on MM to give you a bunch of incompetents and BBs. Meanwhile any other DD has greater versatility in dealing with the situation of MM is not as kind. That's maybe ok in randoms, but it is an utterly dumb stance for Ranked, which is why it should not be there.

11 minutes ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

Some ppl have even played Asashio in ranked and made it work. While I personally do not think Asashio is very suitable for ranked, her strengths and weaknesses are still not absolute, especially in the non-deterministic environments which is normal randoms. Theoretically it is still possible to take Huanghe out and do very well in it, but realistically it's not. There are quite a lot of better alternatives in other ships.

And statistically, if you are a very good player, you have a higher chance to do well in a Loyang or a Kidd or a Harekaze than in an Asashio, which is why Asashio in Ranked is typically not played by superunicums that actually want to get through Ranked efficiently. Frankly, the only thing that I'd take away if I was better with asashio in WR than with any other DD is that I should actually get better at DDs.

19 minutes ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

But that's the problem with Asashio. There are no alternatives to compare her with. Thus it's possible to have a theoretical rating of her, but not a conclusive rating with certainty about her. She is one step towards those "CAVs, BCVs, and 0 surviveability Kitakami" fringe cases, which unsurprisingly are theoretically horrible and weak ships, but in reality, ships which without seeing them in action we cannot make conclusions about.

We saw Kitakami in action. She got taken out for a reason. The rest of this paragraph makes no sense.

2 minutes ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

As for how I would design "fringe cases ships", I'd first improve the game mechanics so the game becomes a place capable of supporting specialized and fringe ships. Currently I do not see this game as having the infrastructure for more depth and complexity.

I'm not too sure this game needs a whole lot of overly specialised ships in the wake of Asashio. As long as the amount of teamplay you can expect in randoms is on the level it is now, this kind of ship is flawed and if there actually was intelligent play, Asashio also wouldn't be the ship of choice still, as it's so very limited.

[KarmaQU_EU]

16 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

I hate this ship. Because the only thing it does is to punish BBs who dare to tank damage and play their role, not the border hugging window lickers.

There is no point to this ship but to enforce static camping and passivity.

Well they tried to introduce German BBs, but all ppl did was use the ships' increased surviveability to camp more safely.

 

3 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

I'm not too sure this game needs a whole lot of overly specialised ships in the wake of Asashio. As long as the amount of teamplay you can expect in randoms is on the level it is now, this kind of ship is flawed and if there actually was intelligent play, Asashio also wouldn't be the ship of choice still, as it's so very limited.

 

 

[BeauNidl3]

3 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

As for how I would design "fringe cases ships", I'd first improve the game mechanics so the game becomes a place capable of supporting specialized and fringe ships. Currently I do not see this game as having the infrastructure for more depth and complexity.

 

There is no NEED for more depth and complexity. There is no point in healing and support classes, if nothing else people wouldn't be likely to want to play them. You're off in a pointless dream world as usual. If you don't like the game and you say you don't play even though it's clear that you do and you even buy expensive Premiums in a game you dislike, then there are other games that have the complexity you appear to crave in WoWs.

 

There is an oddball DD the Monaghan coming, the oddball (and in most people's hands useless) Asashio and they ditched the Kitakami, plus CV's that really don't fit well in the current game due to being too strong, too weak against some AA and too hard for more than a handful to play well. For a long time I've believed that CV's should have their own game mode so balancing with the rest of the ships would no lonfer be an issue that they've failed completely to solve.

[KarmaQU_EU]

I'll say this and nothing more then.

 

The Asashio is a flawed and even slightly 'ugly' ship, but this is only when placed in the setting of the current WoWs. 'Environmental factors' cause it to be out of place, and discourage further attempts at introducing ships with highly varied, almost fringe-case levels of strength/weakness tradeoffs, or ships having unique placement in the game.

 

But this need not be the case. If WoWs had a more sophisticated and expansive game design, with more depth and infrastructure to support such variety and creativity, then such ship classes would feel right at home in the game.

 

Some ppl argue that this is pointless, but I think they say so because there are few ready comparisons in both highly unique ships, and complex game mechanics which work, to compare it with. Were there more comparisons to reference and draw experience from, perhaps they'd be more open-minded to the possibilities of a game which supports more unique and truly varied ships and classes, and not ships which fundamentally do all the same things with only slightly different coating.

 

SInce ppl really want to defend the current lackluster version of what game there is, I'll not push them anymore. Truly quitting this increasingly pointless game.

[lameoll]

good players will still use the asasshio for scouting and objectives etc While using the torps actively.

the problem is a lot of bad players will use them as well. And they do not know how to balance teamplay with damage farming.

So often they will just forget teamplay and go torp spamming on the side of the maps.

So that combined with long range torps could also be a danger to friendly ships as well as a lot do not know how to use them.

i was torped twice in 1 week time by friendly assashio's because they just spammed torps everywhere And i have not played BB's that mutch.

[Sub_Human]

21 minutes ago, lameoll said:

good players will still use the asasshio for scouting and objectives etc While using the torps actively.

the problem is a lot of bad players will use them as well. And they do not know how to balance teamplay with damage farming.

So often they will just forget teamplay and go torp spamming on the side of the maps.

How is this different to any other dd or any other class for that matter 

Playing yester day I had such wierd games. I felt like my team was actively avoiding all caps. My first game I capped a while doing 40 k damage to dds and dying in a Khabarovsk. That was our only cap for the entire game and we lost by points. Last game I got 3 caps in my Grozovoi and again only 40k damage mainly to DDs. That game we won but I Only got 1600k xp, third in the team. 2 damage farmers at 2000k over me. People do not seem to want to win. Only farm damage. This goes for BBs as well as Cruisers, so why the hell not DDs. Im on the verge of going there permanently. F**k all caps and just farm damage like everyone else. Asashio will do nicely for this.

[Episparh]

I do not have Asashio and I do not care for it, but that thingie really ruined my t8 ranked battles as it promotes a clear anti-pattern how a DD should not be played. 

The only occasion when we had Asashio and we won was when enemies had one too... 

 

In most of the cases Asashios were far behind, leaving CAs and BBs scout for them which they re-payed with friedky fired torp soup. 

 

I am so happy I've reached Rank 10. 

 

Hope no more tier 8 ranked... Ever.... Period.