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Asashio and Teamplay

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I know, there are multiple threads already on this ship and I posted in quite a few of them already, but I thought I'd start a new one. Not to whine about how this ship is OP or how it needs a buff. I just wanted to express my experiences so far in encountering the Asashio in battle and preferably, what I think of the ship and its supposed concept based on that and maybe someone can actually tell me afterwards what to do.

 

First off, I never played Asashio. So, I cannot tell how fun it is. I can only judge from my experience of IJN DD gameplay... I am not too keen on purchasing one just to try it out. The ship is a Kagero in all aspects other than its torpedo armament and well, there is a lot to be critiqued about the Kagero, from its lack of gun dpm, to its not too high hp, to the pretty poor AA suite and the rather low speed. It has good concealment though, which is nice, but other than that and the torpedoes, the ship certainly is not going to shine. And the torpedo armament. Well, yes, it will likely have pretty consistent results vs BBs, but at the cost of being unable to torpedo cruisers and DDs? Not worth 35 Euro to me, so, well. Others might think differently, but I for myself don't see the fun to be worth that much.

 

What I do know of though, is how it is to play with and against this ship. And oh boy, I hate it. Of all the poor decisions WG ever made with this game, I rank Asashio as the poorest in regards to a single ship. As most people know (though it still seems unknown to quite a few Asashio players), the armament of the thing is extremely lop-sided, focused on killing one target and one target only - BBs (with rare CV kill mixed in). Asashio can kill BBs far easier than any other DD if it is allowed to do so. Even if I do not quake in fear when I see an Asashio on the enemy lineup while taking out Bismarck or Amagi, I certainly acknowledge, no other DD is as good at killing BBs. PA DDs have deep water torpedoes too, but they don't do potentially 72 knots with over 20k damage and stand-off range, nor do they have a second set of torpedoes ready in case they need to get a second chance. And torpedoes are the best weapons a DD has to kill a BB. Unless you are something like a Khabarovsk with torpedo ranges too short and guns up to the task. But for most DDs, killing BBs is done with torpedoes and these torpedoes are fast enough that even if I was on my Bismarck with hydro, if the Asashio is good and rushes me, I'm likely dead. I so far ate one single torpedo from an Asashio, but I sure as hell don't want to try fight this thing on my own in a BB. Against anything else... Asashio is pretty much just an easy kill.

 

Some might argue "But I killed x with the guns", but frankly, short of another IJN DD, most destroyers handily outperform this ship and any cruiser eats it alive. It is not impossible to get kills on cruisers and dDs, but typically by having backup, in which case, most cruisers will happily ignore this ship and deal with whatever seems more threatening to them. In which case, typically an Asashio gunning down a cruiser is less the asashio's dpm being worthwhile, it is a cruiser caught out of position and about to die anyway and any other DD would have accomplished this task too, if not faster. So, basically, unless the enemy is utter potato or already so low any ship could finish them off, Asashio is not going to win such a fight.

 

What this means, is that this DD is often hailed as the ship that enforces teamplay. "Now the BBs need to move up else they die alone" and "Cruisers/DDs can act as a screen to protect them easily and shut down the Asashio". And admittedly, the ship itself certainly benefits from teamplay, as it requires the rest of your team to kill all the targets you can't kill, or at least to lower them to an hp range where you can go for it with the guns. They need to keep DDs/cruisers off you and hopefully shoot at whatever you try to keep spotted with your good concealment. So, is this the new teamplay DD? Is this the DD that will make the miracle happen?

 

Yeah, of course not. It's goddamn random. Not only is Asashio's design enabling and promoting a certain selfishness, compared to say, USN DDs, which are great team-player DDs, Asashio also has two more flaws that prevent her from revamping the meta. First off, the ship is one premium that comes up every once in a while and way too often gets little done, so, why would you change gamestyle? Even more, people who know how to support effectively in BBs did so before and will deem that the best approach to countering this ship. People who camped before will feel vindicated in their believe that 20 km gun range is to be used at 20 km, because why else would the devs have given BB such ranges if not to snipe from halfway into the next map? You don't change psychology with one single ship. Just like few German BB and cruiser players are going to invest drastically into their AA just because a Zeppelin might show up, nor will there not be potatoes who'll get caught completely out of position and be oneshot. Which actually is the second point... the playerbase will not magically grow smarter. Already before, teamwork could win games. Cooperation was extremely powerful if pulled off effectively and could win games. So, why would people who'd have an incentive to cooperate before and did not do it, why would they do it now? If they even know what an Asashio is.

 

I originally thought I'd hate seeing Asashio on my team, but frankly, I hate seeing it on either team. On my team, they sometimes are pretty decent, in which case, fine, but often they are pretty dumb and just manage to suicide, in which case, well... But the real frustration is an Asashio on the enemy team. Not so much if I'm a BB. As a BB, I just try to position myself in ways that allow me to matter while being somewhat secure. But damn is this thing an annoyance if I'm a DD or a cruiser. It isn't really going to kill me, no, but when I see an Asashio in the enemy line-up, I basically am now presented with a choice. Play as usual, do my thing. Try to have a positive impact and do my best to win the game, while trusting the rest of the team to keep a lookout for Asashio and the BBs to act intelligently? Or do I try to make sure BBs survive by playing torpedo picket? Well, as a cruiser, this choice is often made for you, concealment says I don't necessarily want to be between the BBs and the enemy without some cover. But no torpedo path goes through islands and such, so if I sit behind islands, likely I'm not going to pick up anything. But if I position my cruiser out in the open between an Asashio and my BBs, I'm likely about to die to enemy BBs. If I take out Harekaze though, likely one of the most well-suited asashio-counters in the game, thanks to never getting outspotted, it now seemingly adds to the many tasks I should do, from capping, spotting and getting damage on the enemy, I now also should try to cover the BBs from torpedo salvos. Which can be pretty unpleasant, if you have some BBs that have no idea of what they are doing.

 

Just two days ago, I for example had a game on Trident, enemy has an Asashio. Great. Gonna scout, try to see where the BBs go, try to spot torpedoes. Most went towards where normally A is, I get picked up by RPF, which seems like a valid skill to take on an Asashio. running in front of the BBs, there's now a fight between the BBs there, when suddenly our Derpitz decides, they are German, they got torps, they must go on the offensive and brawl or something against the enemy North of A, including at least one Chapayev, so, well, I tell them to get back, because if they do that, they likely eat torpedoes and die and I try my best to still go out there, likely more risky than I should have played, trying to always have the option to run for cover if that 20 second radar kicks in. I did consider ditching the Tirpitz and likely would have if they had not returned on their own, but it is a hard call to make, because, well, it's a top tier BB. Even if they aren't unicum, you do not want your BBs to just get farmed, because then you likely lose. Later that game, Asashio was spotted, it was on the other flank, trying to torpedo cruisers. Because you know... Is anyone really surprised? sadly, I felt kind of betrayed, because had I known that (enemy told us in all chat that their Asashio was being useless), I would've been able to be of much more use than covering for that suicidal Tirpitz, but one can never be sure. It could've been some unicum, that goes to wreck all of our BBs. Thanks to how hard it is to get a spot on Asashio and how dangerous the ship is to one single type of target, it's just brutal how much potential threat exists. and I would think "well-played to that Asashio for locking me down", but it wasn't well-played at all. It was just their existence alone, while they themselves were about as useless as could be.

 

And so, is this ship OP? No, I still don't think so. as long as it cannot carry matches on its own, it isn't. It certainly is not totally useless, but it is limited. I already said elsewhere in all these Asashio topics, Asashio is a ship that performs best on a potato team vs a potato team. Namely on a team that is unable to kill the enemy BBs without Asashio, but where the enemy BBs also are dumb enough to die to Asashio. I stand by that. this ship doesn't just thrive on 5 BB per side matches, it thrives on the average skill level of the player base being low. To me, this ship is a mistake, not because of its power ceiling, but because of its floor. This ship, basically, has a skill floor that is about as low as it gets. It basically caters to the lowest common denominator of torpedo play. If you have just about any idea of how to use torpedoes and stay alive in IJN DDs, you'll likely get some numbers out of this ship. Just, it also has a pretty hard skill ceiling. In a way, people having better stats in this ship than in other DDs seems less indicative of the ship being good. It just is more foolproof than most other DDs. If you take a Kagero or a Harekaze and yolo into a cap like a moron, you die and get nothing done. If you torp all game long, avoiding caps, you are maybe going to land a couple fish, but you won't get far. In Asashio, torpedoes are so much easier to deploy against the intented target, that farming damage would likely become easier, just if no BBs are around any longer, what then?

 

So, as a summary, I dislike this ship because:

  • The ship is way too easy to get something done, while being near impossible to get anything done beyond a certain point. Thus enabling potatoes to do far more than their skill level would typically allow them to do, while it shits all over more skilled play.
  • This ship requires from both teams more teamplay than one could reliably find in random battles, making it very frustrating to have it in the match. Even for people who are practically immune to the ship, because other people in the team get so hard-countered.
  • Despite the requirement for teamplay, this ship design does not promote it, but instead promotes being basically just another damage farmer, not a scout or cap contester, jobs DDs actually should do, as every other ship can damage farm too.

 

Apart from that, I will also adress one more concern, which is what I heard during the development phase, when some CCs (afaik LWM for example suggested it) brought up that this DD might be indicating potential changes to the IJN DD main line and WG might use Asashio to test the viability, in which case, please no. By all that is good, please don't. I know, it is rumours, but I really cannot express enough how utterly terrible it'd get if IJN DDs as a general were brought on Asashio's level. Already now, it is one of the less common picks to take a Kagero into ranked, for good reason, but if Kagero had DWTs, yeah, no. I do think IJN torpedoes have been overnerfed, and with ships like the PA DDs being introduced there sometimes is this feeling of "Is torpedo boat destroyer now less a specialisation than just an indication of what the ships are limited to?", but please no more deep water torpedoes on IJN DDs. Especially if you cannot hit cruisers. Already on the PA DDs, you cannot hit DDs, but typically, most of the time you do not torpedo DDs and for all non-DD threats, especially cruisers, deepwater torpedoes are an immense threat, while IJN torpedoes are a more moderate one. If IJN is to stay a torpedo-focused line, then do not nerf the utility of the one weapon system that is actually decent on the ships and don't make them asashio-levels of super-situational. I almost want my IJN DDs to be left as is, because I also once wanted an Asashio premium and now it's this toxic pile of garbage.

 

So, what do people think and how do you think I should handle this as a DD?

 

And a small weeb bonus for all those who read this far.

Spoiler

If you aren't into anime, you can still turn around.

Spoiler

__arashio_kantai_collection_drawn_by_nagami_yuu__1a9b1626a209779265b02b9169e27b27.thumb.jpg.99cf9294b2250f9ea6126f426390eb6e.jpg

 

Did you expect Asashio? Too bad, it's me, Arashio.

 

 

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The whole 'is Asashio the work of Satan or not' thing has been done to death elsewhere; on the subject of turning all the IJN DD torps into BB-only monsters - hells, no! I agree - it would make them largely unplayable, with the *possible* exceptions of the gunboats (both existing and proposed). I'd be very surprised if WG implemented Asashio torps for all IJN DDs though - the BB player freakout would be visible from distant galaxies, and cost them too much money (why buy another premium BB ever again?)!

I don't have a problem with Asashio (well, I would say that), but only as an isolated oddball, not as a template for lots of future ships...

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2 hours ago, Riselotte said:

 

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Did you expect Asashio? Too bad, it's me, Arashio.

 

 

RUDE :Smile_trollface:

 

 

Also sorry but I'm lazy so I didn't read all of it, just skimmed over it, but what I think of the Asashio (as the target audience of her torps - a BB player) can be summed up with this:

2 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Asashio (..) it's this toxic pile of garbage.

 

It's just bad. I don't see anything good going for it. In fact, that increased torp range just gives me more time to dodge them without any idea that they are coming

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The ship seems like one of those 2nd line support tanks in wot, good at one or two things garbage at anything else.

 

except it seems to change how players will play due to how the ship plays.

 

makes me wonder if i should progress beyond tier 7 too be honest.

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21 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

RUDE :Smile_trollface:

 

 

Also sorry but I'm lazy so I didn't read all of it, just skimmed over it, but what I think of the Asashio (as the target audience of her torps - a BB player) can be summed up with this:

 

It's just bad. I don't see anything good going for it. In fact, that increased torp range just gives me more time to dodge them without any idea that they are coming

Most of my post is just a complaint about how this ship is a terrible design, which is unfun to play with on either team, because while it has a very hard skill ceiling making it pretty useless when out of its element, thus unappealing to anyone who would want a competitive ship that ages well with skill, the ship gives the less gifted a handy tool to punch way above what they'd get out of any other DD.

 

And while the more competent BB players will be able to look after themselves, it's sadly the case that most people are likely less great in BBs and will just die to this ship if left to themselves, so as a DD, I feel like this ship just adds to the tasks I shold take care of (spot torpedoes), which is unrewarding and unfun. I mean, I could just ignore Asashio, because "it can't torp me anyway, lul", but then my BBs get nuked and it'll be one uphill battle from the get-go. And locking down enemy DDs as fleet escorts also does not necessarily earn Asashio anything, nor does it require skill. It merely requires the presence of the DD without being accounted for. If this DD had 10 km torps, it would be far less problematic.

6 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

The ship seems like one of those 2nd line support tanks in wot, good at one or two things garbage at anything else.

 

except it seems to change how players will play due to how the ship plays.

 

makes me wonder if i should progress beyond tier 7 too be honest.

If you never want any Asashio games, you shouldn't even progress past T5. T6 and T7 can get matched vs a T8 DD and it isn't necessarily any better down there.

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Asashio takes way more skill to be effective in terms of team support, but it can do it`s (DD`s in general) job under certain circumstances.

For anyone below die-hard IJN DD veterans it`s not as good as the glorified Harekaze, or actually any other DD - even Kagero.

 

Asashio is arguably the least self-sufficent DD in the entire game (polar opposite of things like Z-52), and has to be babysitted until there is no longer any threat to it, and if it, and its team survives up to this point, then it`ll win the game for his team, because enemies won`t stand much of a chance with all their BB`s dead.

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37 minutes ago, Infiriel said:

Asashio takes way more skill to be effective in terms of team support, but it can do it`s (DD`s in general) job under certain circumstances.

For anyone below die-hard IJN DD veterans it`s not as good as the glorified Harekaze, or actually any other DD - even Kagero.

 

Asashio is arguably the least self-sufficent DD in the entire game (polar opposite of things like Z-52), and has to be babysitted until there is no longer any threat to it, and if it, and its team survives up to this point, then it`ll win the game for his team, because enemies won`t stand much of a chance with all their BB`s dead.

I'd not be sure whether you can say that, because even for people that are IJN DD veterans, other DDs might just be superior. As I pointed out, the Asashio has a low skill floor and a low skill ceiling, in both regards being lower than the Kagero and at least in the latter being lower than Harekaze.

 

Killing some BB in Asashio to get some easy damage, exp and credits is pretty easy, given the situationally borderline OP torpedoes. Just find some BB with an opening and torpedo it, throw 16 fish if you really need a curtain of death. you are better equipped in this regard than any other DD, so a Kagero or a Harekaze wanting to replicate this feat have to have far more skilled players to get any similar results. And for many folks, devstriking two or even just one battleship per battle is already an accomplishment they might not experience in other DDs. Knowing how to abuse 5.4 km concealment with Kagero maneuverability, sneaking around is also something where Asashio needs some skill, but the same is needed for the other two ships. Even if a Harekaze has Akizuki guns, it still cannot gunboat in the open without exposing itself to the threat of instant deletion with its bad hp pool.

 

What sets them apart however is that for the Asashio player, knowing how to use the guns and when to use the guns is the only other great skill they need, they will never need to know how to try to torpedo any more maneuverable targets with the torpedoes, like the Kagero and the Harekaze would benefit from (Asashio here simply cannot do that), nor will she need to know the advanced gun mechanics of the Harekaze. And even if the player knows, the return is very limited as there is only so much you can do with these guns.

 

So, I'd claim the inverse. Asashio is the "IJN experience" but dumbed down. For 35€ (or whatever it is in non-Eurozone countries), you get likely the ship that has the easiest time of any ship to farm big damage numbers on enemy BB with the most minimal skill required to do that (even if some don't even manage that much). You could suck in any other IJN DD, then this DD could still get results. Maybe not unicum results, but far in excess of what you get from your other DDs. If you want a ship that rewards skill though, Kagero and Harekaze are far more suited, because the Kagero can at least try torpedo cruisers and retains a decent anti-BB performance if played properly, while the Harekaze is even more dilluted, being a Jack-of-all-trades IJN DD, who is only master in concealment. Kagero and Harekaze cannot go as easily after BBs, but they can go after BBs (and BBs still are their easiest targets), but in exchange for needing more skill to delete BBs, they also reward skills in other areas where asashio just cannot hope to compete if it is not categorically locked out.

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I said before and I say again ...

 

In a bad game, or a bad matchup, Asashio will perform no worse than any other ship facing a bad matchup or having a bad day.

But in a good game, or a good matchup, the Asashio can put scores from "good games" with other ships to utter shame.

 

And in those "good games", I doubt the Asashio was so useless that it contributed nothing to its team in sense of teamplay.

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@Riselotte you seem to dislike the Kagero a lot. It is one of my favourite dds in the game and in the t9 Version I scored the highest average damage among the dds I played. It really is not bad if you can make the concealment work and play without smoke. In fact it becomes quite the monster then.

 

I still have mine and enjoy to take her for a spin every now and then. The Shima's concealment buff is hurting her a little, but nonetheless she is a fantastic dd and a pinnacle of the line itself. 

 

I would never give up her chance to torp dds and cas for the torps Asashio gets. If you know what you're doing you will land regular torps regardless. So why go all out witchcraft on torps that are intended for bbs anyway? I have seen a couple of them and they excel at their purpose, as one would expect with such an all in concept. On the other hand I have had a few run into me while I was playing gun boat dd. It was game over for them then and there since there is no fighting back. 

 

Finally, as a forum, we should give it a rest. Even before the release the majority of us were aware of what she'd be offering and discussed if she was worth buying. For me she isn't, if I were to buy an ijn premium it would definitely be Harekaze. At this point we are just listening to our opinions on repeat. 

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There is no feeling better than seing ashasahahahaa torps next to you, freak out just for one second in your cruiser.. then feel the warmth of calm at the second!

then detecting that thing with puny little guns inside a smoke.. omg.. better than a rabbit under the lights!

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5 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

I said before and I say again ...

 

In a bad game, or a bad matchup, Asashio will perform no worse than any other ship facing a bad matchup or having a bad day.

But in a good game, or a good matchup, the Asashio can put scores from "good games" with other ships to utter shame.

 

And in those "good games", I doubt the Asashio was so useless that it contributed nothing to its team in sense of teamplay.

There is no matchup for any other DD where more than 5 ships on the enemy team are unhitable by torpedoes. A horrible matchup for something like a Kagero is pretty similar to that for Asashio is 5 DDs, a good few radar cruisers, a carrier and a couple Missouris, no other BBs. And guess what, that still is all torpable, you can still try to outplay the radar and just don't have to die to DDs and cruisers. You might even be able to get torpedo hits on the DDs. It isn't easy, but it certainly is better than Asashio in these circumstances, which can just hope the Missouris are making it easy to get torpedoed and otherwise farm pathetic gun damage until it gets radared and dies or gets balanced from above.

 

So, no, Asashio in a bad matchup is way worse than any other DD. Yes, it can get silly scores when it gets a good matchmaking, but that is pretty much what I mean when I say this ship is dirt easy to get something done, but it has a hard ceiling as to what it can do and if it gets hit hard, it's the end. Even if,like with all ships, unicums at the helm are the most dangerous Asashios, this ship caters to potatoes by how little skill is required to play it somewhat effectively compared to any other DD and how little you actually get from being skilled past a certain point, compared to most other DDs.

3 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

@Riselotte you seem to dislike the Kagero a lot. It is one of my favourite dds in the game and in the t9 Version I scored the highest average damage among the dds I played. It really is not bad if you can make the concealment work and play without smoke. In fact it becomes quite the monster then.

 

I still have mine and enjoy to take her for a spin every now and then. The Shima's concealment buff is hurting her a little, but nonetheless she is a fantastic dd and a pinnacle of the line itself. 

 

I would never give up her chance to torp dds and cas for the torps Asashio gets. If you know what you're doing you will land regular torps regardless. So why go all out witchcraft on torps that are intended for bbs anyway? I have seen a couple of them and they excel at their purpose, as one would expect with such an all in concept. On the other hand I have had a few run into me while I was playing gun boat dd. It was game over for them then and there since there is no fighting back. 

 

Finally, as a forum, we should give it a rest. Even before the release the majority of us were aware of what she'd be offering and discussed if she was worth buying. For me she isn't, if I were to buy an ijn premium it would definitely be Harekaze. At this point we are just listening to our opinions on repeat. 

I don't necessarily dislike Kagero. I see the ship as a continuation of the IJN line and most IJN DDs are pretty ok. Not stellar, but at least you can get something out of them, if you know what you do and with good concealment and hard hitting torpedoes, it's pretty nice. Personally, I would not trade the smoke for TRB though and I did not play Kagero, because I was investing in other lines while I have a Harekaze for sneaky T8 DD action. I ran into enough Kageros (and Asashios) though to know what to expect of these DDs and might buy one these days.

 

As to the discussion, it is up to the individual whether they want to buy this ship or not, in my opinion. I certainly won't, but I can see why some would. I didn't however want to discuss whether the ship is worth buying, but rather I wanted to state that I preferably do want this ship reworked or at least no further ships like it added. To me, ships like GZ and Asashio go in a direction where I'd not want this game to go.

 

Also, playing torpedo screen vs a DD that might torp from across the map is unrewarding and unfun.

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But that doesn't mean the ship is inherently against teamwork. Imagine a dedicated AA cruiser, who gets put into a matchup without carriers. We don't say this cruiser is "anti-teamwork", we just say it's not going to be as effectively contributing to a win as it could.

Or in another way, when we see a Kagero facing 6 DD MM, we don't wish it suddenly becomes a gunboat DD, or even better, an Atago, we just say "well it certainly won't be spearheading any cap contests". 

 

The fact that the Shiratsuyu, with an extra gun and 4x2 w/ torpedo reload boost isn't outright regarded as "better" than the Asashio, is because at higher tiers, specialization can pay off. But like any other ship, it requires you to have the experience, and some luck with MM. So I'd argue Asashio doesn't have a low skill ceiling, but rather a higher one.

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1 minute ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

But that doesn't mean the ship is inherently against teamwork. Imagine a dedicated AA cruiser, who gets put into a matchup without carriers. We don't say this cruiser is "anti-teamwork", we just say it's not going to be as effectively contributing to a win as it could.

Or in another way, when we see a Kagero facing 6 DD MM, we don't wish it suddenly becomes a gunboat DD, or even better, an Atago, we just say "well it certainly won't be spearheading any cap contests". 

 

The fact that the Shiratsuyu, with an extra gun and 4x2 w/ torpedo reload boost isn't outright regarded as "better" than the Asashio, is because at higher tiers, specialization can pay off. But like any other ship, it requires you to have the experience, and some luck with MM. So I'd argue Asashio doesn't have a low skill ceiling, but rather a higher one.

Pretty much all ships with a speciality in AA specialise also in other things, typically in murderizing DDs and can work well against all other ships if played well. AA cruisers like Atlanta, Cleveland, Minotaur, Worcester, Yuubari all work well in killing ships even if no carrier is to be found. Killing planes is not all their guns are for. For two of the ships I named their main battery does not even contribute to the AA. Not to mention that a cruiser that wants to use AA effectively will not just use it for themselves, but will start looking out for chances to interdict carrier strikes on the team, because what crazy CV goes for the Atlanta first thing in the game? So you go take up a tactical position that provides cover an allows you to actually cover a good portion of the map, while maybe also allowing to lob HE shells and you even get radar, just for the extra team play.

 

If a Kagero is up against 6 DDs (which I cannot say I ever saw in T4+), that's still 6 more DDs that can be crippled with torpedoes than Asashio could. Same with Atago. Basically all cases you bring up, Asashio gets shut down even harder than a Kagero, because the Kagero can do everything the Asashio could against these targets, as well as launch its most effective weapon, the torpedo. Not to mention, an Atago, is likely one of the less scary T8 cruisers to meet in a Kagero, given while atago has good concealment, Kagero beats it by far and together with Mogami it has the worst means to gain vision of you, compared to NO and Chapa who have radar, Hipper and Eugen that could have German hydro, Edinburgh that is sure to have hydro and might have radar. Ok, Kutuzov is equally bad, but Kutuzov and Mogami at least have fast-firing guns, while Atago hits hard, but will likely get only one salvo off before you smoke up and bail.

 

Shiratsuyu is not regarded as better, because it is T7, it gets smoke or TRB and if caught without smoke, it is not able to run off and has terrible hp. It has T7 torpedoes too. Tier for tier, I would regard Shiratsuyu as better though, because, for T7, its concealment holds up and indeed, the ability to spam 16 torpedoes that can hit anything is nothing to be scoffed at.

 

If you think needing lucky MM to prevent your ship from outright sucking indicates a higher skill ceiling than you may have issues understanding the term skill ceiling. Asashio does one job well and it does it so well that every potato can pull it off if they have just about any idea what they can do. That is the low skill floor I'm talking about. Asashio otherwise is very limited in what it can do and even a very skilled player will not get past the hard-coded limitations of the torpedoes and will only get so much out of the rest, where she is identical with a Kagero.

 

Specialisation like with Asashio does pay off in that it is easier to play the ship, because what you can do you can do easily and what you cannot do you simply cannot do.

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And that is why it’s an “ugly” ship, because of “hard coded limitations”.

But some ppl just want to take a frankenship with frankenbuild and go out and see if the can yolo with it. If a single steamer manages to do well with Umikaze in a T10 game doesn’t mean everyone can, or should, but in the case where it works it cannot be regarded as a failure. 

This is the fallacy. A ship can not be utterly useless if it has at least one strength.

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2 minutes ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

And that is why it’s an “ugly” ship, because of “hard coded limitations”.

But some ppl just want to take a frankenship with frankenbuild and go out and see if the can yolo with it. If a single steamer manages to do well with Umikaze in a T10 game doesn’t mean everyone can, or should, but in the case where it works it cannot be regarded as a failure. 

This is the fallacy. A ship can not be utterly useless if it has at least one strength.

It falls apart if it only has one strength and if that strength becomes not applicable. Insofar, I did not call the ship totally useless, I said it has a low skill floor and a low skill ceiling, catering to potatoes. This has nothing to do with Umikaze, which in its tier is decent and if it gets into tier 10, people would still not call it a good pick and it is just there for the memes. Yes, some people want to just have this ship to feel good with, but that does not make it a good ship nor does it mean this ship suddenly rewards skill more than any other DD.

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In a sense, Asashio is very PRO-teamplay boat! :cap_popcorn: 

 

If your team has those usual 2 or 3 DD, so the Asashio constitutes 1/2 or 2/3 of them. To win vs enemy 3DD - you better make use of this little dude!

CV has to spot BB early so the little abomination can choose the flank correctly, and planes have to eliminate enemy spotters trying to lighten up our very-deep-water threat. Cruisers (or even BB too) should focus HE spam on targets which soon will be hit and surely flooded. Gunboat DD and other shooters should focus any DD spotted in Asashio's way, so he doesn't have to reveal his position too often. 

 

And you have the game packed & ready! EEasy. :cap_cool:

 

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1 godzinę temu, EdiJo napisał:

CV has to spot BB early so the little abomination can choose the flank correctly

Or just spot the enemy CV for 5 seconds.

If it doesn`t move, or turn if it`s moving (and more often than not it won`t) Asashio can kill it across the entire map.

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I picked up the Asashio expecting a bit of trolling and memes. I also semi expect it to get pulled from the store at some point and I always like owning the rarer stuff.

 

I also expected it to be slightly dull and 1 dimensional, and to be the sort of ship I took out for some low input derping. In short, I also expected low skill floor and low skill ceiling.

 

Imagine my suprise (and delight) when IMO this wasn't the case.

 

The low skill floor is certainly there. Sit at some point between 5.5 - 20km from a BB and just launch on the marker. You'll probably hit something over the course of 20 minutes given the number of torps you can throw. Given the number of straight lining BB you can probably get a flood going and get some big damage number while similtaniously being nowhere useful, and hitting noone useful.

However sitting at the back and torping won't get good results. Chasing BB, while it will get you better damage also wont get good results.

 

Where the skill ceiling comes in is it's ability to multitask, and your ability to predict paths.

 

The Asashio doesn't play like any other DD ive played. If you sit at the back, or chase BB you will get bad results (ok damage, but low wins). If you try playing it like a kagero/harekaze you will also get bad results - they are better at focussing one area (e.g. a singular cap), where the Asashio is more limited due to the fact it can't torp DD/CA.

 

Instead it can do something the others can't - it can support one cap while being in a different one -Okinawa for example you can contest/spot the B cap, while torping BB at A/C or the ones that hide in spawn. To do so effectively though, you have to pretty much ignore the indicator and instead read the map to predict where they're going to end up - are they going to use an island for shelter? Are they strong enough they will probably push through? Are they likely to turn away because they're coming under fire? At 16-20km the indicator will pretty much only hit a massive potato that straight lines for literally minutes, or through random luck. The better you get at reading the map the better you can get at these trick shots.

 

The Asashio is hard limited by the fact its torps cant hit certain ships - no amount of skill will let you torp a DD. The Kagero/Harekaze are limited by their range - you can be the best, but you still can't attack ships in A and C at the same time as contesting B.

 

Now there's plenty of arguement that something more suited to focussing on one area is a better choice - Clear A, move to B etc. There's plenty of arguement that being able to torp DD is more useful than hitting a BB as DD tend to win games. That doesnt mean the Asashio has a low skill ceiling however.

 

Because of these interesting new options Ive been enjoying the Asashio, it plays suprisingly different to other DD

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16 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Instead it can do something the others can't - it can support one cap while being in a different one -Okinawa for example you can contest/spot the B cap, while torping BB at A/C or the ones that hide in spawn.

Okinawa? Cap B and Support A? Can I have what you're smoking as it apparently makes DWT swim under islands.:Smile_facepalm:

 

Actually, take a look at this page on the WoWS wiki and tell me how many out of all of the maps in the game (including maps too low-tier for Asashio to play on) can you actually cap one point and still torpedo BBs in another?

(Assuming there will even be BBs in the caps given that there is an Asashio on the enemy team)

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I like this ship. My first love in this game and the reason i started to play was Shimakaze. Just loved that ship to death! Loved the stealthy ninja playstyle. Then all other nations, radars and hydros came and Shima lost its streangh. And i has been sitting collecting dust in port for far to long. 

 

With Asashio i feel like ive gotten my old Shima back, and i love it. Once againt i can strike fear in the enemy fleet with deadly stealthy torps. And i play her just as i always played my Shima, aggressive! Im always near the caps, scouting and spotting usually 6-7k from the enemy BBs. Even help gun down spotted CAs and DDs on occasion. Last night i had a game where there was only enemy CAs left when i picket a fight in the endgame with a wnemy Kutuzov so the friendly low health Hipper would get his broadside and be able to kill him of.

 

This ship is so capable in teamplay. Its mostly up to her Captain.

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15 minutes ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

Okinawa? Cap B and Support A? Can I have what you're smoking as it apparently makes DWT swim under islands.:Smile_facepalm:

 

Actually, take a look at this page on the WoWS wiki and tell me how many out of all of the maps in the game (including maps too low-tier for Asashio to play on) can you actually cap one point and still torpedo BBs in another?

(Assuming there will even be BBs in the caps given that there is an Asashio on the enemy team)

You make the assumption that the BB "At A" will actually be inside the cap circle. They almost never will. The BB "at" a cap will usually be about 10km behind it - this opens up a lot more angles.

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Its nice to have a bit of variety in the game, and for me, it provides it. When I'm in a BB and think it may be in front of me, I'll change speed, and course often. When I play it, it can spot caps (Low detection range), and scout out flanks. Yes I can fire off a shed load of torps and flood an area that battleships are in, but I can do the same in my Shima, sit back with 20Km torps and saturate a cap with torps. Low skill? hell yes. But these things are in game and meant to be used. You get no extra brownie points for going up against a heavily armoured opponent with a plastic tea spoon, dead is dead, You lost. If you think its bad, then some of us remember a certain other IJN DD that was removed from game, because it was broken. Skill in this game is not the only factor that decides victory, as so many players have very low skills, such as myself, old, arthritic fingers coupled with impaired vision (cataracts), mean we oldies sometimes need a ship like the Asashio. We pay and play to have fun.  Wargaming make money, the game continues.

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15 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

You make the assumption that the BB "At A" will actually be inside the cap circle. They almost never will. The BB "at" a cap will usually be about 10km behind it - this opens up a lot more angles.

You'd make a good politician, because you didn't answer my question.

Here it is again, in case you missed it:

50 minutes ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

Actually, take a look at this page on the WoWS wiki and tell me how many out of all of the maps in the game (including maps too low-tier for Asashio to play on) can you actually cap one point and still torpedo BBs in another?

(Assuming there will even be BBs in the caps given that there is an Asashio on the enemy team)

Let's assume for argument that you are right and the BBs 'at' a cap are some distance behind it. Now consider all those maps again and where the BBs usually are in support of the caps and answer my question.:fish_viking:

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1 minute ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

You'd make a good politician, because you didn't answer my question.

Here it is again, in case you missed it:

Let's assume for argument that you are right and the BBs 'at' a cap are some distance behind it. Now consider all those maps again and where the BBs usually are in support of the caps and answer my question.:fish_viking:

Ok:

Okinawa, Islands of ice, hotspot, ocean, atlantic, loop, shards, warriors path, north/northern lights, neighbours, land of fire, trap, trident

 

Some depends which side you spawn, and others have more limited arcs. Shatter is pretty tight in terms of angles although B->C is still viable. Estuary is pretty bad, giants path is terrible, haven is ropey, and two brothers obviously has a huge land mass in the middle

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1 hour ago, Xevious_Red said:

Where the skill ceiling comes in is it's ability to multitask, and your ability to predict paths.

 

1 hour ago, Xevious_Red said:

The Asashio is hard limited by the fact its torps cant hit certain ships - no amount of skill will let you torp a DD. The Kagero/Harekaze are limited by their range - you can be the best, but you still can't attack ships in A and C at the same time as contesting B.

And if the ships in other caps are not BBs or there is a non-BB ship inbetween, your torps again will not too much. Predicting how the ships will turn is not too hard, it's what you generally pick up in torpedo boat DDs, now just applied on a larger scale, as well as still for a target like BBs that typically will approach certain points in somewhat predictable patterns (if they want to get there to support). Harekaze and Kagero are limited in their range, but for one, 10 km range is more than enough (especially if you want to hit things that are not BBs), and second, the amount of things these two other Dds can do in that limited range is fa greater than what Asashio can do in its 16-20 km range. And it needs the knowledge of how to effectively torpedo something like a cruiser or even a destroyer, how to get close enough and not die and for Harekaze it even needs a certain knowledge of what you can engage how with your guns, which offer far more options than the standard IJN 12.7 cm rifles.

 

Yes, knowing how to use the Asashio for more than second line torpedo spam and spot is what differentiates the good Asashio player from the bad one, but not only will the good Asashio player never have the versatility the other two DDs have, your example actually is basically still just "spot one cap, stand-off torp the other". If you play Okinawa and your DD and cruisers in A get attacked by a Des Moines radaring and a Hindenburg, what are you going to do? torp them? If you sit in B, the cap gets contested, apart from trying to spot, what can you do? You could try spot, but not only are there DDs sharing your detectability, most could just smoke up and you can't even torpedo them. The fact that the Asashio is not even half a DD in either of two caps does not make her worth any more than one proper DD in one cap.

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