Double punishment playing Dm. Donskoi

[BeauNidl3]

3 minutes ago, Runegrem said:

This is one ugly thread. One guy points out a flaw in the punishment system and the mob senses weakness and jumps on him like a pack of hyenas. And most of them don't even seem to get the point of the post; they just want to say how bad he is. Toxic forum behaviour for the win, right guys?

 

Rubbish, sorry that's complete and total bollards.

 

He displayed that he's trying to make a completely unsuitable build work on a ship that's unable to effectively play the way he wants to play and because he's got no stealth at all he's got deleted so early that the contribution registers as the same as being AFK. That's not a flaw in the system, but in his approach.

It's not a missplay screwup, we all do those, it's a bad choice of setup that leads to him getting easily deleted, far easier than with a reasonable setup. 16km detection range on what is a light cruiser is just poor choices.

The only "pack" is the fact everyone thinks he's made, at best, idiotic decisions and now he wants to blame the system for punishing his idiocy.

[EdiJo]

2 hours ago, Yogibjoern said:

IT is still the principle of being judged Inactiv/afk that bothers me.... Clearly the automatic system is out of sync. No matter how bad I misplayed those two matches does not justify the penalty period.....

The system is quite simple - if you end a game with zero influence, you are flagged as inactive. What "out of sync" is here?

1 hour ago, Yogibjoern said:

Don't know what you guys are smoking, but it looks funny..... I wonder how you reach that conclusion that I what was a late loading....

You are exactly right in this point - I may be autosuggesting. Sorry. 

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When I was actual looking at the count down finishing inside the match.... All you do is acting like a pack of hyenas smelling blood... Such a bunch of hypocrites..

You are exaggerating here. 

16 minutes ago, Runegrem said:

This is one ugly thread. One guy points out a flaw in the punishment system and the mob senses weakness and jumps on him like a pack of hyenas. And most of them don't even seem to get the point of the post; they just want to say how bad he is. Toxic forum behaviour for the win, right guys?

I agreed with the point that the system does what it is intended to do: flags inactive players. Doesn't matter WHY the player was inactive: disconnected, afk, blapped without doing anything. 

And it looks it is OK - all those cases are toxic for gameplay, and for the team also does not matter whether they lost a team member because he preferred to eat dinner or because he was thinking about that dinner more than about playing (and/or about choosing skills for his boat) and was blapped. Right?

13 minutes ago, Yogibjoern said:

Thanks guys

Welcome.

 

[Yogibjoern]

 

I want to see proof of your aligation's!!!!!! I did not load late, proof it or shut up... Period!!!

[EdiJo]

1 minute ago, Yogibjoern said:

 

I want to see proof of your aligation's!!!!!! I did not load late, proof it or shut up... Period!!!

I think everybody here agreed there is no reason to think you loaded late. Calm down, I said sorry. I was autosuggested by one of earlier posts and by seeing tons of late-loaders all the time. Sorry for false accusation man 

[Yogibjoern]

apology accepted

[BeauNidl3]

Late loading being out (not that I ever mentioned it).

 

The reason the system detected you as AFK is the complete lack of contribution to the game caused by your own decision to run an unsuitable build on a fragile ship that led you to being instantly deleted, not once, but twice.

[Runegrem]

6 minutes ago, BeauNidl3 said:

He displayed that he's trying to make a completely unsuitable build work on a ship that's unable to effectively play the way he wants to play and because he's got no stealth at all he's got deleted so early that the contribution registers as the same as being AFK. That's not a flaw in the system, but in his approach.

It's not a missplay screwup, we all do those, it's a bad choice of setup that leads to him getting easily deleted, far easier than with a reasonable setup. 16km detection range on what is a light cruiser is just poor choices.

The only "pack" is the fact everyone thinks he's made, at best, idiotic decisions and now he wants to blame the system for punishing his idiocy.

The system is supposed to punish deliberate misconduct, not mistakes. So yes, it's a flaw in the system.

 

As far as rules are concerned there's no difference between a mistake made during a match and a mistake made before a match.

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, EdiJo said:

I agreed with the point that the system does what it is intended to do: flags inactive players. Doesn't matter WHY the player was inactive: disconnected, afk, blapped without doing anything. 

And it looks it is OK - all those cases are toxic for gameplay, and for the team also does not matter whether they lost a team member because he preferred to eat dinner or because he was thinking about that dinner more than about playing and was blapped. Right?

What's intended isn't necessarily what's good or decent, this is WG standard "working as intended". Being disconnected, being forced to go afk or being deleted are not examples of toxic behaviour. Being afk because you preferred to do something else after clicking start battle is.

[Yogibjoern]

Just want a reaction/comment from WG is this working as intended or is it a flaw??

 

@Tuccy @MrConway @Sub_Octavian

[Odo_Toothless]

8 godzin temu, Yogibjoern napisał:

Been one shot twice in Dm. Donskoi less than 30 sec spotted by Yamato and Montana.

By the way on your account, there is not any russian cruiser at all (except 2 low premium ones), so that happen on another one ? I admit don't really belive, that been one shooted at game start make you pink, but who knows ? Can you post a replay of that game ?

[Yogibjoern]

yes on my main account.... But I really can't see how the stats is relevant for this situation..........

[EdiJo]

4 minutes ago, Runegrem said:

The system is supposed to punish deliberate misconduct, not mistakes. So yes, it's a flaw in the system.

I may generally agree that being zero-dmg-blapped is not an offense equal to afking but it is not completely different thing. 

I recall some of my painful cruiser accidents and I am starting to sympathize ;) 

4 minutes ago, Runegrem said:

 

As far as rules are concerned there's no difference between a mistake made during a match and a mistake made before a match.

 

What's intended isn't necessarily what's good or decent, this is WG standard "working as intended". Being disconnected, being forced to go afk or being deleted are not examples of toxic behaviour. Being afk because you preferred to do something else after clicking start battle is.

Anyhow, "being forced to go afk" and "being disconnected" is exactly example of behavior toxic to game play, but only if done repeatedly. So I would make such forced-afker, disconnected or suicider slightly less pinky than a TK, and I think the system already doesn't punish after the first offence? 

[Odo_Toothless]

1 minutę temu, Yogibjoern napisał:

yes on my main account.... But I really can't see how the stats is relevant for this situation..........

So on different one ? Just asking. As i wroted in previous post (was edited): I admit don't really belive, that been one shooted at game start make you pink, but who knows ? Can you post a replay of that game ?

[Yogibjoern]

No don't have replays enabled, They just takes up space on the Hard disk and is useless after each new patch.

[Runegrem]

4 minutes ago, EdiJo said:

Anyhow, "being forced to go afk" and "being disconnected" is exactly example of behavior toxic to game play, but only if done repeatedly. So I would make such forced-afker, disconnected or suicider slightly less pinky than a TK, and I think the system already doesn't punish after the first offence? 

No, toxic isn't anything that has a negative impact. Those are accidents. Toxic behaviour is deliberate, even if it's not a concious decision to be toxic.

 

And even if you want to punish that if it occurs repetedly I don't think two times is enough for punishment.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Yogibjoern said:

No don't have replays enabled, They just takes up space on the Hard disk and is useless after each new patch.

I recommend enabling them. They don't take a huge amount of space and you can clear the folder up every now and then. Yes, that requires a little bit of work, but I think it's worth it for the few replays you might want to watch, report to WG or show off to the forums.

[Odo_Toothless]

A system have probably some flaws but it's already a godsend to fight a plaque of AFK-er and pinkies. I talked to some of them. One had unreiable system that crashes game constantly and is making him load after one-two minutes after game start, other is killing team mates for fun, others just spam torps from behind friendly ships and seeing not a problem with that etc.

 

I can stand that sometimes i can be punished for example not working internet connection or something else, knowing that those offenders will be perma playing game with bots.

[Yogibjoern]

Main issue is if people get punished for things they actually didn't do. Particular when those people is paying customers.... Then that system might backfire and create more trouble than necessary... I will not be happy if I will be confined to Co op for a mistake I make playing in some matches.

 

Yes you can punish me for breaking the rules and I will accept that. But I will not accept being auto punished for something I didn't do. This is not how you treat your customer base 

[EdiJo]

On 5.05.2018 г. at 5:09 AM, Runegrem said:

No, toxic isn't anything that has a negative impact. Those are accidents. Toxic behaviour is deliberate, even if it's not a concious decision to be toxic.

Not exactly. Repeated accidents are not accidents anymore - became toxic behavior because (as you wrote) the decision to play with: broken net, unstable OS, not happy wife does not have to be conscious to be deliberate ;)

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And even if you want to punish that if it occurs repetedly I don't think two times is enough for punishment.

Yes, this needs some tuning. But I would give pink for 2 suicides, disconnects or being afk in a quick succession (like in 3-4 last games), and for 3-4 total during last 24hr. 

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I recommend enabling them. They don't take a huge amount of space and you can clear the folder up every now and then. Yes, that requires a little bit of work, but I think it's worth it for the few replays you might want to watch, report to WG or show off to the forums.

I keep all my replays. Apart from encrypted game recording they contain game date, type, played map, and exact team compositions in the header, in open json format. I think I'll make some statistics from that at some point 

 

On 5.05.2018 г. at 5:35 AM, Yogibjoern said:

Main issue is if people get punished for things they actually didn't do.

I would count starting Donskoi game without ANY concealment and playing not VERY cautiously as deliberate suicide. Same as when someone could've pressed W in his battleship at the start of the game and watched what happens (actually he'd probably do some dmg and he would not end pinky...). 

 

And if suicide happens twice one after another it is not accident anymore... 

[Yogibjoern]

Assumption of twice suicide is all you got either you prove it or take the consequences......... Might start reporting people for slander if this continues.... Then others more competent be the judge 

[BeauNidl3]

41 minutes ago, Yogibjoern said:

Main issue is if people get punished for things they actually didn't do. Particular when those people is paying customers.... Then that system might backfire and create more trouble than necessary... I will not be happy if I will be confined to Co op for a mistake I make playing in some matches.

 

Yes you can punish me for breaking the rules and I will accept that. But I will not accept being auto punished for something I didn't do. This is not how you treat your customer base 

 

You DID do it, you built the ship in a an unworkable bizarre way, leading to 16km spotting range, that led to your immediate death while harming the games of your 11 teammates, by any reasonable definition that's wilful Unsporting Conduct. You admitted you've played it in that state at least twice that led to Disciplinary warnings.

 

But since you're not bothering to refute the point that's been made so many times, I'll assume you know that. 

 

Report away, it's our analysis of what you've admitted to, that's not "slander" (fun you using the legal term in a threatening way) it's simply pointing out you've behaved irrationally and are continuing to do so.

[loppantorkel]

Tough to know without a replay. Maybe the system is a bit faulty at start, nothing strange about that, but it might be wiser to report it as a bug and preferably have a replay at hand for the devs. Kind of tough to discuss without knowing why you got the warning.

[Commander_Cornflakes]

I'm honestly thankful to OP for this thread.

 

When WG introduced the new punishment system, there was the question if players could bypass afk punishments by brainlessly suiciding into the enemy team.

Apparently this question can now be answered with "no" which I'm very glad about

[aboomination]

6 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

If making a mistake once a year is the limit, you're being unreasonably elitist. People make mistakes.

Well, I guess doing literally nothing happened once to me. And yes - I know that the player base is rotten. Maybe I actually welcome this. OP has a bit to think about and that's not a bad thing ^^

Also, a replay file would really have helped this thread.

 

Regarding the "bug/intended" thing - this cannot be answered by us mere players anyway (thus the assumptions), so we are just helping out where we can.

Should have asked technical support.

[Capra76]

4 hours ago, BeauNidl3 said:

You DID do it, you built the ship in a an unworkable bizarre way, leading to 16km spotting range, that led to your immediate death while harming the games of your 11 teammates, by any reasonable definition that's wilful Unsporting Conduct.

 

Let's assume for a moment that the OP was in a T5 ship, playing one of his first games at that tier, would you still say that getting a penalty for getting killed 2 minutes into the game was fair?

 

Alternatively, lets say that a friendly DD slams a full torpedo spread into you 30 seconds into the game, how long do you think your TK penalty should be in that case?

 

I mean WG doesn't penalize BB players for being useless damage farming border-surfers, so why should other classes be getting hammered for legitimate mistakes?

[Tungstonid]

5 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

 

12 hours ago, Tungstonid said:

What's the difference between an AFK player and a player who gets deleted two minutes after the battle started with no contribution whatsover besides maybe pressing "W" twice and holding "A" or "D" for a few seconds? Right, there is none. Both serve as exp pinata at best - for the enemy team. Both don't deal damage, both don't go for/support objectives, both give points to the enemy team when sunk.

You're just being elitist by whining about players who make mistakes. If you think making a mistake should be equally punishable as someone who deliberately sabotages for their own team, then I think you should be banned from the forums, because your opinion breeds the kind of toxic behaviour we don't need. You have no constructive contribution here, so by your argument, you don't belong here.

 

12 hours ago, Tungstonid said:

you can even argue that the player who got sunk early is worse because he makes his own team lose crucial points early on (contrary to the AFK players who usually "saves" his points for about 10 minutes) and the enemy doesn't have to guess where he is and can therefore play more agressively.

Sure, you can argue that. If you don't know how points work. The only time early points actually matter, if you're going to lose them anyway, is when the whole team is collapsing, in which case it's a moot point anyway.

Where am I being elitist? I didn't say "What's the difference between an AFK player and a bad to average player". Being deleted early on happens to everyone at some point. Happened to OP (obviously), happened to you, happened to me and I am not so blinded by my "elitism" (as you call it) to not admit it. It wasn't whining either.

My point was that OP's contribution to the matches he complains about was that of an AFK player at best, hence he should not wonder for getting flagged as one. Is it ideal? Maybe not since he was not really AFK. But this is one of the weaknesses of automatic systems. No matter how idiot-proof you make the parameters, there is always someone who gets in although he doesn't belong there. Again, this is not elitism from my side. In fact, the exact same thing might happen to me in one of my next battles. The only difference will be that I accept that I didn't contribute anything and join the next battle doing better. What I definitively won't do is going to the forum and basically complain about my own skill...

 

On a sidenote: AFK players are not necessarily "deliberately" sabotaging their own team either.

[pra3y]

 

Posted this in another thread but shall post it here as well. Barely doing anything in a battle will not result you in turning pink. I literally did nothing, 0 damage (for that matter 0 shots fired), and only spotted 1 ship in the game above, yet no warning. So I'm really doubtful that the warning system is that cranky.