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EdiJo

Mission accomplished - Orion not fun anymore.

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Great job, WG. :Smile_medal: You made another ship not fun to play. Clear signal: all sheep must pay-proceed to Tier 8+, leave lower tiers as fast as possible. Another stick to make grinders move faster to the area when finally they can have some influence on where their shots will hit. 


Orion accuracy nerf made it a wide-spread shotgun. From all possible way of nerfing the boat you of course chose the worst - making things totally random and neutralizing any skill advantage. 

I played couple of games just to check and this is disgusting. Not a big statistical sample, sure - but I lost interest in trying more.

I could not hit a baguette charging me at 5km - shots were all over her, in all directions. This is not how it should work. 

Orion is still a strong ship, but any effective hits do not seem correlated with target vulnerability, distance nor number of guns shooting. I could as well go and throw dice. 

 

The most fun thing for this ship was not the HE damage nor fire chance - it was the accuracy. Being in a potato team (typical at this tier) I could defend myself vs seal-clubbing pixel like Kamikaze. Now it is impossible. 

 

Pity because we lose the whole historical epoch of boats to have fun with. Not only because of unfair matchmaking in medium tiers, but also because of adjusting specs according to the lowest possible denominator of skill. All we get is 1940+ (in case of Soviet ships 1950+) -era vehicles (often fictional projects) packed with extra-turbo-consumables and abilities. 

I think this is weird, because lower tiers should be easier to balance...

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I wonder what you would have changed to nerf the ship.

1.6 sigma isn't awful for low tiers. Wyoming has 1.5, Fuso has 1.5, New Mexico has 1.5 etc.

 

For low tiers there's something to be said about lowering the skill ceiling for ships so that they are not as effective at seal-clubbing. And lowering the accuracy is pretty much the best way of doing that if the ship is in a good enough place to take a nerf.

You also have a very limited number of things you can change which wouldn't carry over onto other ships. Change damage, fire chance etc of the shells and you nerf other ships using the same shells. So how do you then nerf the damage output?

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Now it feels like a Monarch with 10 guns in terms of accuracy. A few salvoes just land into the ocean no matter how you aim. Nevertheless, still a dangerous ship. It still does 7-14k HE salvoes on cruisers, incapacitating their modules and starting fires, making them vulnerable to the rest of your team. Hitting BBs isn't a big deal since all you need is 1 shell to start a fire.Still, atleast 3-6k penteration damage is possible on them.

This nerf allows adversaries to live a little longer imo. 

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2 hours ago, EdiJo said:

Great job, WG. :Smile_medal: You made another ship not fun to play. Clear signal: all sheep must pay-proceed to Tier 8+, leave lower tiers as fast as possible. Another stick to make grinders move faster to the area when finally they can have some influence on where their shots will hit. 


Orion accuracy nerf made it a wide-spread shotgun. From all possible way of nerfing the boat you of course chose the worst - making things totally random and neutralizing any skill advantage. 

I played couple of games just to check and this is disgusting. Not a big statistical sample, sure - but I lost interest in trying more.

I could not hit a baguette charging me at 5km - shots were all over her, in all directions. This is not how it should work. 

Orion is still a strong ship, but any effective hits do not seem correlated with target vulnerability, distance nor number of guns shooting. I could as well go and throw dice. 

 

The most fun thing for this ship was not the HE damage nor fire chance - it was the accuracy. Being in a potato team (typical at this tier) I could defend myself vs seal-clubbing pixel like Kamikaze. Now it is impossible. 

 

Pity because we lose the whole historical epoch of boats to have fun with. Not only because of unfair matchmaking in medium tiers, but also because of adjusting specs according to the lowest possible denominator of skill. All we get is 1940+ (in case of Soviet ships 1950+) -era vehicles (often fictional projects) packed with extra-turbo-consumables and abilities. 

I think this is weird, because lower tiers should be easier to balance...

It is not WG fault that you have no patience. As Nechrom said, the ship is no different from other BB.

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3 hours ago, EdiJo said:

Great job, WG. :Smile_medal: You made another ship not fun to play. Clear signal: all sheep must pay-proceed to Tier 8+, leave lower tiers as fast as possible. Another stick to make grinders move faster to the area when finally they can have some influence on where their shots will hit. 


Orion accuracy nerf made it a wide-spread shotgun. From all possible way of nerfing the boat you of course chose the worst - making things totally random and neutralizing any skill advantage. 

I played couple of games just to check and this is disgusting. Not a big statistical sample, sure - but I lost interest in trying more.

I could not hit a baguette charging me at 5km - shots were all over her, in all directions. This is not how it should work. 

Orion is still a strong ship, but any effective hits do not seem correlated with target vulnerability, distance nor number of guns shooting. I could as well go and throw dice. 

 

The most fun thing for this ship was not the HE damage nor fire chance - it was the accuracy. Being in a potato team (typical at this tier) I could defend myself vs seal-clubbing pixel like Kamikaze. Now it is impossible. 

 

Pity because we lose the whole historical epoch of boats to have fun with. Not only because of unfair matchmaking in medium tiers, but also because of adjusting specs according to the lowest possible denominator of skill. All we get is 1940+ (in case of Soviet ships 1950+) -era vehicles (often fictional projects) packed with extra-turbo-consumables and abilities. 

I think this is weird, because lower tiers should be easier to balance...

Which is typical WG modus operandi - make "OP" stuff simply not fun to play. Besides, if you expect accuracy from a battleship, then you're up for disappointment to start with

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3 hours ago, EdiJo said:

I could not hit a baguette charging me at 5km - shots were all over her, in all directions. This is not how it should work. 

Orion is still a strong ship, but any effective hits do not seem correlated with target vulnerability, distance nor number of guns shooting. I could as well go and throw dice.

That is pretty much how all BBs work today. The dispersion gets even worse below 10km in most cases.

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I'd say it was about time she got nerfed .. that ship was disgusting

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1 hour ago, lup3s said:

I'd say it was about time she got nerfed .. that ship was disgusting

 

Yes. HE Spamming BBs surely was One of the badest Ideas of Wargaming.     

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35 minutes ago, nambr9 said:

Soooo ... now I can charge an Orion with Kamikaze? Good, good :Smile_hiding:

Hahaha! You're a real joker.

As if Kamikaze will ever be in a tier 5 battle.

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18 minutes ago, Nechrom said:

Hahaha! You're a real joker.

As if Kamikaze will ever be in a tier 5 battle.

Well, they can still meet in t7 one if Orion divisions with enemy Kamikaze :Smile_izmena:

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Oh my, a broken seal clubber has been nerfed, how sad is that? 

 

...when i think about it, not at all! :cap_like:

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8 hours ago, Nechrom said:

I wonder what you would have changed to nerf the ship.

Everything else. Armor, reload time, alpha dmg, fire chance. But they specifically mentioned that they want to get rid of "experienced players" which were "abusing" - in other words, push out not grinding people to higher tiers. Bad thinking, even considering the money perspective. :cap_cool:

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1.6 sigma isn't awful for low tiers. Wyoming has 1.5, Fuso has 1.5, New Mexico has 1.5 etc.

Doesn't feel that way, especially for Fuso. I don't play the other 2 anymore, and for example Arizona is the one I like despite being slow, AA-less turd frequently put in T7 matches.

Feels like WG slashed something more in Orion than the sigma. Of course it may be autosuggestion :cap_viking:

Quote

 

For low tiers there's something to be said about lowering the skill ceiling for ships so that they are not as effective at seal-clubbing. And lowering the accuracy is pretty much the best way of doing that if the ship is in a good enough place to take a nerf.

Nope, it is the worst. MM can distinguish "very good", "average" and "very bad" skills and spread them in teams evenly. But no, they just cut everything near the floor, so it doesn't matter who shoots - RNG carries the bullets. 

Quote

You also have a very limited number of things you can change which wouldn't carry over onto other ships. Change damage, fire chance etc of the shells and you nerf other ships using the same shells. So how do you then nerf the damage output?

It is not a simulator, and limited variability is already present in supposedly "identical" guns - apart from also hidden "tier modifiers" etc.  I have no problem with Orion 343mm guns having slightly different specs from Duke 343mm if it will help to balance tiers...

8 hours ago, GeneralSavage said:

Now it feels like a Monarch with 10 guns in terms of accuracy. A few salvoes just land into the ocean no matter how you aim. Nevertheless, still a dangerous ship. It still does 7-14k HE salvoes on cruisers, incapacitating their modules and starting fires, making them vulnerable to the rest of your team. Hitting BBs isn't a big deal since all you need is 1 shell to start a fire.Still, atleast 3-6k penteration damage is possible on them.

This nerf allows adversaries to live a little longer imo. 

Yes, it is still good - but I whine only about WHAT was nerfed, and not that it was nerfed...

7 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

It is not WG fault that you have no patience. As Nechrom said, the ship is no different from other BB.

It was different. Even with the abysmal turret rotation and reload times you could hit a DD or a cruiser. Now it is rolling a dice. 

Another thing I like is actually somewhat working AA, but they didn't touch that, for now. 

6 hours ago, Panocek said:

Which is typical WG modus operandi - make "OP" stuff simply not fun to play. Besides, if you expect accuracy from a battleship, then you're up for disappointment to start with

Especially in low tier games, where you can't expect much team play, you need to be able to defend vs DD and CV, which are most often chosen by seal clubbers. 

And making stuff "not fun to play" is very bad idea for an entertainment company... There are other ways of achieving the goal. :cap_old:

5 hours ago, Paimentaja said:

That is pretty much how all BBs work today. The dispersion gets even worse below 10km in most cases.

Nope, in higher tiers guns become much more reliable. Apart from some "silent modifications", like the Missouri one which was mentioned here in the forum.

5 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

So farming and frustrating new players has become more difficult for you and that is why you don't feel good anymore. ....

There are other ways of equalizing the teams, and you are deeply mistaken if you think only "frustrated new players" play T4-T5 ships. Actually my "MM monitor" shows similar skill level to the higher tiers at the hours which I usually play (late evening till early morning...). It is just matter of matchmaking, not making ships more skill independent. 

5 hours ago, lup3s said:

I'd say it was about time she got nerfed .. that ship was disgusting

I agree it should be nerfed. But not like this. 

not-like-this-17824569.png

3 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Only when EdiJo sits at the guns. With other people it might be more risky.

Don't be so sure - it is random stuff, even I can sometimes hit something! ;)

1 hour ago, Jethro_Grey said:

Oh my, a broken seal clubber has been nerfed, how sad is that? 

 

...when i think about it, not at all! :cap_like:

Please read with understanding - I said a hundred times that I don't whine about the nerf generally, but about WHAT was chosen to be nerfed. :cap_old:

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1 minute ago, EdiJo said:

I agree it should be nerfed. But not like this. 

not-like-this-17824569.png

 

I agree.

 

Instead of an the accuracy nerf, the Orion's (or any RN BB's) HE alpha could be nerfed, or the fire chance.

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I have to agree, generally speaking some kind of damage nerf is advised over accuracy nerf, as hits do reward the players' reliable aiming. Nerfing the dispersion probably means that in the hands of a below-average player, the Orion plays more or less the same.

...which, and I very much have to agree with this as well, is not really a problem considering she was overperforming disgustingly. Though, while it's a matter of taste, the main problem was that it was overperforming easily, a good player can probably get almost as good numbers with for example a well-placed Wyoming.

 

A bit of tangent here, but I almost feel that OP things are almost worse in low tiers than in hight "p2w" tiers. At high tiers, players tend to learn how to deal with them at least to some extend, but throw an Impregnator into a flock of newbies and watch as the player count starts to plummet.

I am a horrible tanker in WoT, still very much learning in lower tiers and not putting in a lot of time at all, but generally speaking, I am more furious when I get gold-spammed into oblivion by a Pz.B2 in tier f*cking 3 than when I get HE-trolled by a japanese cow in higher tiers. Where am I supposed to learn, when experienced players tell me "not to buy a T8 prem you scrub, stay in the kiddie pool" (for a very good reason, may I add!), but then they proceed to come to T3 and obliterate me anyway?

 

Tl;dr, I had my fun with the Orion as well, but she needed to get a shot in the kneecap, for the sake of everyone, really.

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8 minutes ago, EdiJo said:

Everything else. Armor, reload time, alpha dmg, fire chance. But they specifically mentioned that they want to get rid of "experienced players" which were "abusing" - in other words, push out not grinding people to higher tiers. Bad thinking, even considering the money perspective. :cap_cool:

Since it was over-performing in the damage department that leaves reload as the only other viable option without changing shell parameters.

Pushing the reload to 35sec could have worked, but wouldn't have made such a big impact on experienced players (seal-clubbers).

 

11 minutes ago, EdiJo said:

Doesn't feel that way, especially for Fuso. I don't play the other 2 anymore, and for example Arizona is the one I like despite being slow, AA-less turd frequently put in T7 matches.

Feels like WG slashed something more in Orion than the sigma. Of course it may be autosuggestion :cap_viking:

I have no reason to believe anything else changed. BB volleys will always be RNG-based, even the most accurate guns will troll you.

 

13 minutes ago, EdiJo said:

Nope, it is the worst. MM can distinguish "very good", "average" and "very bad" skills and spread them in teams evenly. But no, they just cut everything near the floor, so it doesn't matter who shoots - RNG carries the bullets. 

Are we playing different games? The MM has never and probably will never take skill/performance into account.

They are only increasing the influence of RNG, not putting it all on random chance. The skilled will still club, just not as violently.

 

16 minutes ago, EdiJo said:

It is not a simulator, and limited variability is already present in supposedly "identical" guns - apart from also hidden "tier modifiers" etc.  I have no problem with Orion 343mm guns having slightly different specs from Duke 343mm if it will help to balance tiers...

As for shells and other things that carry over between ships, they have yet to break "realism" with different performance for the same shell on different ships with the exception of gun dependent stats like velocity, accuracy, reload etc. Alpha and fire chance are tied to the shells and doesn't change.

I don't think they should change that just because you think the Orion needs to be more accurate.

If they really wanted I'm sure they could make up a new shell for the Orion, but I think they are happy with the sigma reduction and so am I quite frankly.

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34 minutes ago, EdiJo said:

Nope, in higher tiers guns become much more reliable. Apart from some "silent modifications", like the Missouri one which was mentioned here in the forum.

I studied from your stats that you have grinded the KM BBs pretty much immediately when they came out and it took you 5 months to grind Bismark -> FdG. Can you / have you played them recently? I strongly claim that specially Gneisenau and FdG have utterly bad dispersion atm, compared to what they used to be (?) but, it gets better only in closer ranges (opposite to other BBs). But, as you mentioned, Missouri tend to have the exact opposite effect.

 

I still have the Bismark in port and boy, it is truly something else than it used to be. I don't play much BBs anymore because of the dispersion / inaccuracy. And that's just me ; I tend to take multiple citadels of course when I play cruisers, but when I try the same trick with BBs, no no no.. Maybe one cit once in a while but no multiple / devastating strikes..

 

EDIT : And just to clear my self ; Bismark is better than it used to be, when the universal BB dispersion nerf happened, but not as good as it was when released. I can actually hit targets with it, even from slightly longer ranges (12-15km). The others ( Gnei, Fdg) are still very, very bad until you are under 10km.

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33 minutes ago, EdiJo said:

Everything else. Armor, reload time, alpha dmg, fire chance. But they specifically mentioned that they want to get rid of "experienced players" which were "abusing" - in other words, push out not grinding people to higher tiers. Bad thinking, even considering the money perspective. :cap_cool:

Doesn't feel that way, especially for Fuso. I don't play the other 2 anymore, and for example Arizona is the one I like despite being slow, AA-less turd frequently put in T7 matches.

Feels like WG slashed something more in Orion than the sigma. Of course it may be autosuggestion :cap_viking:

Nope, it is the worst. MM can distinguish "very good", "average" and "very bad" skills and spread them in teams evenly. But no, they just cut everything near the floor, so it doesn't matter who shoots - RNG carries the bullets. 

It is not a simulator, and limited variability is already present in supposedly "identical" guns - apart from also hidden "tier modifiers" etc.  I have no problem with Orion 343mm guns having slightly different specs from Duke 343mm if it will help to balance tiers...

Yes, it is still good - but I whine only about WHAT was nerfed, and not that it was nerfed...

It was different. Even with the abysmal turret rotation and reload times you could hit a DD or a cruiser. Now it is rolling a dice. 

Another thing I like is actually somewhat working AA, but they didn't touch that, for now. 

Especially in low tier games, where you can't expect much team play, you need to be able to defend vs DD and CV, which are most often chosen by seal clubbers. 

And making stuff "not fun to play" is very bad idea for an entertainment company... There are other ways of achieving the goal. :cap_old:

Nope, in higher tiers guns become much more reliable. Apart from some "silent modifications", like the Missouri one which was mentioned here in the forum.

There are other ways of equalizing the teams, and you are deeply mistaken if you think only "frustrated new players" play T4-T5 ships. Actually my "MM monitor" shows similar skill level to the higher tiers at the hours which I usually play (late evening till early morning...). It is just matter of matchmaking, not making ships more skill independent. 

I agree it should be nerfed. But not like this. 

not-like-this-17824569.png

Don't be so sure - it is random stuff, even I can sometimes hit something! ;)

Please read with understanding - I said a hundred times that I don't whine about the nerf generally, but about WHAT was chosen to be nerfed. :cap_old:

Well, WG tries to be somewhat consistent when it comes to gun/shell "hard stats" across the tiers, which in turn prevent them from balancing lets say Orion by nerfing alpha/penetration/fire chance, thus they went with "soft stat" sigma spread, turret traverse would be an option, but it would less effective as a nerf.

 

While WG went with two different shells for Nagato/Mutsu and Amagi/Ashitaka, with lower tiered premium twin having inferior AP ballistic properties, it had rather historical than balancing reasons, as both premiums are in prewar config unlike regular sister ships.

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2 ore fa, Nechrom ha scritto:

Since it was over-performing in the damage department that leaves reload as the only other viable option without changing shell parameters.

Shell parameters can vary from epoch to epoch. I am sure Vanguard was shooting slightly better than WW I battlecruisers, despite having their guns. 

No problem with adjusting parameters in the game, especially when WG already is doing that.

Citazione

Pushing the reload to 35sec could have worked, but wouldn't have made such a big impact on experienced players (seal-clubbers).

Why are you calling all "experienced" as "seal clubbers"? It really doesn't work that way, at least not much differently than in higher tiers. Maybe in the middle of the day when all casuals "swim around" it may be a bit of a potato soup, but I don't notice any special potato over-abundance in T4-T5 games. 

Citazione

 

I have no reason to believe anything else changed. BB volleys will always be RNG-based, even the most accurate guns will troll you.

So why they change that, if it was already "RNG-based", hm? 

Citazione

 

Are we playing different games? The MM has never and probably will never take skill/performance into account.

So they need to change that, or the "experienced" will get bored/frustrated with lack of correlation between effort and results. 

Citazione

They are only increasing the influence of RNG, not putting it all on random chance. The skilled will still club, just not as violently.

No, they will not. They will just stop playing "RNG-based" boats. This is evidently what is intended, and I say it is badbadbad. 

Citazione

 

As for shells and other things that carry over between ships, they have yet to break "realism" with different performance for the same shell on different ships with the exception of gun dependent stats like velocity, accuracy, reload etc. Alpha and fire chance are tied to the shells and doesn't change.

Orion AP: 9500, Duke AP: 9900. Same shells?

Citazione

I don't think they should change that just because you think the Orion needs to be more accurate.

why not?

Citazione

If they really wanted I'm sure they could make up a new shell for the Orion, but I think they are happy with the sigma reduction and so am I quite frankly.

Yes they are happy, because then specifically want to get rid of not grinding people from lower tiers. And I am whining exactly about that, nothing more...

2 ore fa, Paimentaja ha scritto:

I studied from your stats that you have grinded the KM BBs pretty much immediately

Oh, no. When KM BB's came out I spent lots of time in my St. Louis - because I am dedicated seal clubber so I could not miss such a harvest!

Citazione

when they came out and it took you 5 months to grind Bismark -> FdG.

I played them without premium and quite rarely. I don't usually do "dedicated grinding" - I start multiple lines, leave them in peace and sometimes come back...

Also that's why when I finally reach something supposedly fun to play, it is already nerfed to the ground :Smile_bajan2:

Citazione

Can you / have you played them recently? I strongly claim that specially Gneisenau and FdG have utterly bad dispersion atm, compared to what they used to be (?) but, it gets better only in closer ranges (opposite to other BBs).

Oh, I take Gneis for a ride now and then - quite frequently in scenarios (speed! torps! AA) and I don't feel the guns are trolly. Just that she has too few of them...

FdG on the other side was a pain. Almost always in T10 battles, focused heavily and not able to withstand it, like the Kurfurst can. 

Anyway, I didn't play much Kurfurst either, because I wanted to get the "dmg emblem" first, so the Conqueror was the obvious choice. 

Citazione

But, as you mentioned, Missouri tend to have the exact opposite effect.

I meant the conspiracy theory about the silent nerf. I did not play her almost at all at the time - but took her for a ride recently and had quite a few trolly misses at broadside cruiser 10km away. That did not happen before.

Citazione

 

I still have the Bismark in port and boy, it is truly something else than it used to be. I don't play much BBs anymore because of the dispersion / inaccuracy. And that's just me ; I tend to take multiple citadels of course when I play cruisers, but when I try the same trick with BBs, no no no.. Maybe one cit once in a while but no multiple / devastating strikes..

Maybe we are all autosuggesting ;)  Unfortunately, WG guards statistic data as it would be a National Security issue. :cap_cool:

 

2 ore fa, Panocek ha scritto:

Well, WG tries to be somewhat consistent when it comes to gun/shell "hard stats" across the tiers, which in turn prevent them from balancing lets say Orion by nerfing alpha/penetration/fire chance, thus they went with "soft stat" sigma spread, turret traverse would be an option, but it would less effective as a nerf.

 

While WG went with two different shells for Nagato/Mutsu and Amagi/Ashitaka, with lower tiered premium twin having inferior AP ballistic properties, it had rather historical than balancing reasons, as both premiums are in prewar config unlike regular sister ships.

I think you are exaggerating with all this "historical correctness" thing...  It's just a game, don't haf to be mad about the exact shell data. They can call it with "A" and "B" suffix, or can do silent variability like they did with 9500/9900 AP. Reload time also depends on more factors than just "gun designation", so it could be tuned. 

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the ship is still damn good though

played a game lastnight with a division pal and we both took orions now I did 70k but fired only ap and he got 130k firing only he and we where at most 4k apart so where shooting relatively the same targets

 

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1 minute ago, beercrazy said:

the ship is still damn good though

played a game lastnight with a division pal and we both took orions now I did 70k but fired only ap and he got 130k firing only he and we where at most 4k apart so where shooting relatively the same targets

 

Yes, you evidently still can hit a battleship, at least enough to start a fire. But sometimes you need to aim at smaller targets, ya know...

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