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ollonborre

Soviet DD's- BFT vs AR

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I'm currently grinding the Soviet gunboat line with the end goal the Kebab, but I have run into a bit of a dilemma. Basic firing training or adrenaline rush?

 

The problem I have is which one is more effective overall, especially since this captain will go through all the preceding ships. BFT gives that nice flat -10% reload boost and 20% AA damage, so it is a nice more for your points type of skill. And it helps those DD's that don't have acess to the reload mod.

 

However AR is a bit cheaper and gives you 1 extra point. And once you drop below 50% HP (which you will most of the time) AR gives you a higher reload than the flat 10% of BFT. 

 

Where my thinking lies right now is that BFT will help the preceding ships a bit more with that flat 10% on all the time with no real downside. And you also have to factor in that on the Taskent and Kebab the heal will make the AR effect jojo around a bit where as BFT will always work. Plus the added AA bonus on those ships is not unwelcome.

 

So I lean more towards BFT, but if there is something I forgot to factor in or someone have a different oppinion I will be happy to hear it.

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I see no reason to not take both tbh.

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40 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

I see no reason to not take both tbh.

^^This. May as well cut the reload down to begin with, then the damage you will inevitably take just makes you even deadlier. Having said that, I went for Demolition Expert over BFT, as USSR DD's seem to deal lots of damage through fire. Thinking about it, I need to get AR, but I chose last stand because DD's need this as standard. I suppose AR is a solid choice, just be careful with how you use damage control so you don't get caught in the open with a broken engine.

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1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

I see no reason to not take both tbh.

That is a very valid option.  The problem is that my planned build right now involves PM-LS-DE-SE-SI-AFT so there is only room for either AR or BFT as of right now.

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I'd swap DE for BFT tbh. That'd allow you to take AR as well.

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15 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

I'd swap DE for BFT tbh. That'd allow you to take AR as well.

One way would be comparing number of fires.

DE gives flat 25% increase (instead of huge 40% for USN) to that over stock... and without any other damage output increase.

BFT's 10% higher shell output also gives that more more fires per certain time and AR works same way.

Both also increase direct damage output capability.

 

And instead of just spamming HE also AP is viable against side showing targets.

 

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On 2018-05-01 at 11:01 AM, ollonborre said:

Where my thinking lies right now is that BFT will help the preceding ships a bit more with that flat 10% on all the time with no real downside. And you also have to factor in that on the Taskent and Kebab the heal will make the AR effect jojo around a bit where as BFT will always work. Plus the added AA bonus on those ships is not unwelcome.

The heal of the high tier ships isn't really powerful enough to affect AR that much. They're mostly better at keeping your health steady. So with them you can stay at a lower HP longer if you so wish to trade safety for firepower. The thing is that often you will need to take things a bit more carefully once your HP gets lower, so you'll probably benefit more from any RoF increase at higher HP.

 

Also, the RU DDs have fairly decent AA for a DD, so boosting that isn't a total loss. You most often won't shoot down more than one or two planes per attack though. But at least it keeps CVs from hovering planes above you.

 

 

And as for DE, as @EsaTuunanen said, RU 130mm AP works really well against broadsided targets of most types at all ranges. It's not as powerful as the German AP, but it's the second best. Just one thing to put into consideration.

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I think it is pretty much matter of preference. My 13 pt kiev commander is currently set for SE + DE after having run him with SE + BFT for a while. Rate of fire is more versatile in the end (AP also benefits from it as others already mentioned) and on russian DDs I would rate BFT just a bit higher than AR. You won't be using torpedoes too often and while AR may give the same or higher bonus when averaged over time, BFT can affect early game DD encounters where you help out your cap-contesting DD buddies. That being said I found DE just a tad more consistent (beware, this is highly subjective) in getting that second fire after the first was repaired (which in turn allows you to switch to AP sooner). So in the end I will probably be going for SE, SI, DE + BFT while omitting AR on this line.

 

Honestly in the end it won't make a very big difference as all of those skills are nice and can be chosen to suit your playstyle to some degree.

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2 hours ago, Runegrem said:

The heal of the high tier ships isn't really powerful enough to affect AR that 

And as for DE, as @EsaTuunanen said, RU 130mm AP works really well against broadsided targets of most types at all ranges. It's not as powerful as the German AP, but it's the second best. Just one thing to put into consideration.

Actually the Soviet AP is overall much better. German AP has raw damage, but soviet AP has better pen and normalisation so the damage is more consistent at longer ranges and at slight angles.

 

As for the topic at hand I have gotten a bit more input, so I feel I have some experimenting to do.

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6 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

Actually the Soviet AP is overall much better. German AP has raw damage, but soviet AP has better pen and normalisation so the damage is more consistent at longer ranges and at slight angles.

I've heard a lot that German AP has kinda crappy pen at range, but I can't really remember having noticed that. Also, the only thing I've heard about normilisation is that some of the American AP shells have a better one with the rest having the same. I have no idea what's actually true about that though.

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27 minutes ago, Runegrem said:

I've heard a lot that German AP has kinda crappy pen at range, but I can't really remember having noticed that. Also, the only thing I've heard about normilisation is that some of the American AP shells have a better one with the rest having the same. I have no idea what's actually true about that though.

Last time I checked the normalisation was worse for the Germans but the close range pen unrivaled (and the damage, I can very well be wrong though). Having spent some time with German DD and cruiser AP I can tell that the pen drops quite quickly at longer ranges but if you get a flat broadside the damage is still good.

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Nation-dependent normalisation has been gone from the game for quite a while now. Normalisation today is strictly calibre based.

 

The common theme with german guns however seems to be high muzzle velocity with low shell weight, resulting in a quicker drop of penetrative capability over distance. Russian guns get pretty solid Krupp-value on top of that, which is a flat penetration bonus and seems to be related to shell material/density/cap performance.

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3 hours ago, Jagod said:

Russian guns get pretty solid Krupp-value on top of that, which is a flat penetration bonus and seems to be related to shell material/density/cap performance.

Soviet 130mm AP has one of the worst Krupp values in game.

Ballistically it would have IIRC ~60% higher muzzle energy than USN 127mm/38 anti-air catapult/mortar, but with super high Krupp of USN AP has even more pen at point plank ranges.

With same Krupp 130mm AP would likely citadel all but more heavily armored cruisers up to 10km because of that for caliber very heavy and long shell being good at retaining kinetic energy.

(unlike very light and shortish AP of USN 127mm/38)

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Right, I mixed that one up it seems. Somehow I still had that Murmansk-Omaha comparison in mind (where Murmansk gets a huge Krupp bonus over Omaha), when I wrote my last comment. Thanks for pointing that out!

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16 hours ago, Runegrem said:

I've heard a lot that German AP has kinda crappy pen at range, but I can't really remember having noticed that. Also, the only thing I've heard about normilisation is that some of the American AP shells have a better one with the rest having the same. I have no idea what's actually true about that though.

To be honest you don't need a lot of penetration to pierce 25mm/32mm plating for those penetration hits. If you were to go citadel hunting on thinner skinned cruisers, then German 128mm is uncomfortably inadequate though

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On 2018-05-01 at 11:01 AM, ollonborre said:

I'm currently grinding the Soviet gunboat line with the end goal the Kebab, but I have run into a bit of a dilemma. Basic firing training or adrenaline rush?

 

The problem I have is which one is more effective overall, especially since this captain will go through all the preceding ships. BFT gives that nice flat -10% reload boost and 20% AA damage, so it is a nice more for your points type of skill. And it helps those DD's that don't have acess to the reload mod.

 

However AR is a bit cheaper and gives you 1 extra point. And once you drop below 50% HP (which you will most of the time) AR gives you a higher reload than the flat 10% of BFT. 

 

Where my thinking lies right now is that BFT will help the preceding ships a bit more with that flat 10% on all the time with no real downside. And you also have to factor in that on the Taskent and Kebab the heal will make the AR effect jojo around a bit where as BFT will always work. Plus the added AA bonus on those ships is not unwelcome.

 

So I lean more towards BFT, but if there is something I forgot to factor in or someone have a different oppinion I will be happy to hear it.

I went BFT on the Kebab. 10% at the start of the match is better then the late game buff. And the torp buff with ar is irrelevant. Flamu went ar + extra 1p skill instead. Im not sure what is best though. Kebab is always a target for CVs, being clumpsy as it is. BFT helps a little, atleast against t8 and t9 CVs. Against a t10 you better be Good at dodgeing.

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1 hour ago, Systergummi said:

I went BFT on the Kebab. 10% at the start of the match is better then the late game buff. And the torp buff with ar is irrelevant. Flamu went ar + extra 1p skill instead. Im not sure what is best though. Kebab is always a target for CVs, being clumpsy as it is. BFT helps a little, atleast against t8 and t9 CVs. Against a t10 you better be Good at dodgeing.

And what's worse is that at tier 10 CVs have occasionally gotten used to torping the fast RU DDs. So you can't just hit speed boost and turn slightly away from the planes and everything will miss. You can still often outrun the torps though.

 

But as for BFT vs. AR + PM, if you count PT as your first 1 point skill I can say that I've previously had PM in the Kebab. But now that I use her in Ranked I wanted to see how useful RL is. So I kinda had to spec out of PM. And now it feels like the engine breaks all the time. Which is kinda disastrous for survivability. Maybe I've just had bad luck. RL is pretty darn convenient though.

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7 hours ago, Runegrem said:

And what's worse is that at tier 10 CVs have occasionally gotten used to torping the fast RU DDs. So you can't just hit speed boost and turn slightly away from the planes and everything will miss. You can still often outrun the torps though.

 

But as for BFT vs. AR + PM, if you count PT as your first 1 point skill I can say that I've previously had PM in the Kebab. But now that I use her in Ranked I wanted to see how useful RL is. So I kinda had to spec out of PM. And now it feels like the engine breaks all the time. Which is kinda disastrous for survivability. Maybe I've just had bad luck. RL is pretty darn convenient though.

Ive gotten used to playing without PT. I Always go PM and thats my only 1p skill on any DD. I even rebuilt my IJN ones out of RPF. Took EM and Torp Acc. instead. It feels like the best awarenes skill is your own spidersence... Then again some days...

When it comes to CVs if you can turn away so the planes have to chase you you can shot down quite a few before they can drop you. And hopefully dodge the rest. This does not apply to t10 CVs as their planes tend to be to tough. Outrunning the torps never gets old though. :Smile_popcorn:

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If you want to burn BBs, go DE. If you want to fight DDs and cruisers go AR+BFT.

 

The BFT build is more general. Also your fire chance is still a very good even without DE.

 

I guess I am the oddball here, but I don't have AR on any of my DD captains. When it is effective, you are 1BB pen from sinking anyway, so I don't consider it that much of a help. Especially when you go the heal/evade Khaba route ... In my experience (I might just be a potato), there are enough Hindys and RU/IJN cruisers to crap on you even in your preferred engagement range ...

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High skilled CV captain is needed to torp Khaba if Khaba is not braindead. 

You know,Khaba is faster then torps. 

I recall Fara in Shokaku trying to kill my Khaba and dont manage any torp hit.

Its T8 CV but still he is one of best CV players around. 

Khaba is very hard to torp.

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On 2018-06-13 at 10:34 AM, Hugh_Ruka said:

 

I guess I am the oddball here, but I don't have AR on any of my DD captains. When it is effective, you are 1BB pen from sinking anyway, so I don't consider it that much of a help. Especially when you go the heal/evade Khaba route ... In my experience (I might just be a potato), there are enough Hindys and RU/IJN cruisers to crap on you even in your preferred engagement range ...

Not having AR on the gunboats I can sort of understand. But not having AR on a hybrid or torpboat is a missed oppurtunity, since AR massively helps in the torp department and tour sometimes lackluster guns are that tiny bit more effective.

 

I currently run the BFT+DE setup on the Kiev, and so far it is working for me. Might experiment when I get further up the line but during my grinding I'm sticking with BFT.

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I have AR on practically every single ship, but I'm not planning to get it on my eventual Khaba captain. The logic being that, given the usefulness of the 3 SP skills and how many I want to take, it indeed comes down to the choice in the thread title between AR and BFT and that BFT will give more more benefit for more of the match. AR won't become more useful until once you're below half health, but given the nature of the ship and how often you're going to be visible and firing you ideally want to avoid being on low health as much as possible. I feel I'd rather have the flat bonus for the whole match.

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