Asashio. The end of teamplay in Random and Ranked

[wilkatis_LV]

10 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

If Asashio is regarded UP in 6 months or so, it will be buffed, maybe its guns.

Then  after 6 months maybe it will be a half decent ship. But that's not the case now, not even close to it

[loppantorkel]

1 minute ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Then  after 6 months maybe it will be a half decent ship. But that's not the case now, not even close to it

Could be, but it's not 'the end of teamplay'.

[HaachamaShipping]

Ideally, it doesn't just get buffed, but has the torpedoes made into less retarded ones. But I doubt it. WG did not want to listen when the CCs and everyone with half a brain said it'd be terrible and the longer it continues to infest the seas, the less likely it'll vanish. At worst, it'll be pulled from store like the Belfast (though it is nowhere as OP), not removed entirely (to be possibly revamped) like GZ (given we knew exactly what the ship does and there were no last minute changes). One can only dream of it being handled the Kitakami way for being utterly retarded, but I do doubt that it'll happen, because times have changed.

 

Until then, I guess Asashio is a throwback to the good old times when Situational awareness wasn't taken on BBs and you'd just press W, A, S or d semi-randomly to not be an easy torp target.

[eliastion]

6 hours ago, Admiral_Surprise said:

The general opinion that DDs should actively contest caps have given the result that DD players suicide caps and spoiled BB players camp.

 

I like how Asashio stirs the pot. 

DDs primary job is to spot, it is the teams job to cap. Asashio is a great spotter. And it can nuke BBs and CVs, in other words break the back of the enemy team. There is nothing wrong with the Asashio.

"The general opinion that DDs should actively contest caps" comes especially strong from above-average DD players. You claim otherwise - you insist that DD's primary job is to spot... and, dare say, how does this work out for you?

I know it sounds like stat-shaming and all that but, seriously - wouldn't it be more prudent to accept others' opinion on the matter rather than insist on your own that doesn't seem to be working, like, at all? Contesting caps isn't easy even for ships that are good with that. It's also very dangerous - by sailing into a cap you announce your presence and that's never a comfortable thing to do, especially in the beginning of the match when Radars are ready to go, all the ships afloat and the engagements just beginning with just some long-range salvoes being exchanged - half the enemy team is ready to blow you out of the water, given the chance. Still, contesting caps IS extremely important. The fact that many DDs end their lives in this phase doesn't change the fact. If anything, it just drives home the point of how important it is to both do the thing and do it properly. It's not all there is to being a DD, but if I were to give two most important jobs of a destroyer, it would certainly be

 - contesting caps

and related but not synonymous

 - neutralize enemy DDs

Spotting (other than what already fits into the job of neutralizing enemy DDs) is of very limited relevance in most battles. Yes, there are situation where it's worth a lot, but these are exceptions rather than the rule.

 

So, basically,  in context of both main purposes of a DD... Asashio has one - and only one - thing going for her: her concealment. Yes, it's a useful tool that can accomplish quite a bit in the right hands, so it's not like the ship is completely useless, but still - she's heavily disadvantaged in both main tasks of a destroyer.

[BeauNidl3]

And yet another utterly useless Asashio pulling down the team to a loss, his words were "Asashio can't cap or spot". He had no idea what his concealment was for and I wouldn't be at all shocked if he had no experience with DD's, Tier 8 is NOT the place to learn...

He managed to land 1 torpedo salvo from no idea how many in a long game and came 3rd bottom, we would have been better off with an AFK BB.

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

4 hours ago, eliastion said:

"The general opinion that DDs should actively contest caps" comes especially strong from above-average DD players. You claim otherwise - you insist that DD's primary job is to spot... and, dare say, how does this work out for you?

I know it sounds like stat-shaming and all that but, seriously - wouldn't it be more prudent to accept others' opinion on the matter rather than insist on your own that doesn't seem to be working, like, at all? Contesting caps isn't easy even for ships that are good with that. It's also very dangerous - by sailing into a cap you announce your presence and that's never a comfortable thing to do, especially in the beginning of the match when Radars are ready to go, all the ships afloat and the engagements just beginning with just some long-range salvoes being exchanged - half the enemy team is ready to blow you out of the water, given the chance. Still, contesting caps IS extremely important. The fact that many DDs end their lives in this phase doesn't change the fact. If anything, it just drives home the point of how important it is to both do the thing and do it properly. It's not all there is to being a DD, but if I were to give two most important jobs of a destroyer, it would certainly be

 - contesting caps

and related but not synonymous

 - neutralize enemy DDs

Spotting (other than what already fits into the job of neutralizing enemy DDs) is of very limited relevance in most battles. Yes, there are situation where it's worth a lot, but these are exceptions rather than the rule.

 

So, basically,  in context of both main purposes of a DD... Asashio has one - and only one - thing going for her: her concealment. Yes, it's a useful tool that can accomplish quite a bit in the right hands, so it's not like the ship is completely useless, but still - she's heavily disadvantaged in both main tasks of a destroyer.

This. And in this regard the Kagero is the far better option as its torps are brutal for everyone they hit. The main problem the Asashio has is that it can only work under certain circumstances. It cannot claw a team back. Once the bbs are down its a case of 

[Malfuss]

Not all Asashio players play it like you suggest. I actively spot and contest caps with it, but it is pure frustration, can't torp DD's/Cruisers, can't gunboat with it, it sucks unless you have straight lining BB's which I never seem to run into on my games and rarely have they pushed caps. I have never just hunted BB's with it, much as I like their tears, and my average damage will show that. As for ranked, I've laughed every time I've seen one on the opposing team, and I'm playing North Cal in ranked.

 

I think I've played 5 games in it and wish I'd never bought it.

 

 

[RAHJAILARI]

1 hour ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

This. And in this regard the Kagero is the far better option as its torps are brutal for everyone they hit. The main problem the Asashio has is that it can only work under certain circumstances. It cannot claw a team back. Once the bbs are down its a case of

Yupp, has a few games with Asashios in them last weekend. It is pretty easy, if it's in the enemy team, one can pretty much count them one DD short immediately and God almighty if the Asashio is the only DD they got. On the other hand, it is the same if it happens to be on the green team too. It is certainly a menace, but perhaps not quite the way WG has intended tho.

 

On yes, so this is strike 2 isn't it... If we reach the prescribed 3 I'll have to drink a pint (or was it a keg`?) in your honor dude.

[creamgravy]

I feel sorry for all the Asashio that spawn at the opposite end to enemy BBs with 2 caps in between. (Esp high tier maps)

 

It's surprisingly frequent...

[Wildf1re]

13 hours ago, MortenTardo said:

The little teamplay we have now is that some few DD players like myself actually spot and actively contest caps. However those Asashio players don't and you think BB's will team up with DD's and cruisers now? Man you are wrong on so many levels. 

I agree that teamplay in random are often lacking. However, I do not believe Assasio wil make that either worse nor better. Like the RU DDs Assasio is very specialised, however, played carefully it's definitely possible to cap and even cap contest by denial. You will get deleted fast when spotted and hunted down unless you have a cruiser or two with you for cover, but having that it works.

I bought the Asassio and so far I like it - and I do cap and spot with it. It's slow as F***, too slow to run from anything. However, staying close to support - when there is a minimum of teamplay going on, it can still do more "normal" DD stuff, the stealth is great. The fact that many Assasio players choose one-sided flankin, is in my mind the same players that would refuse to even contest a cap in a RU DD - or like the Kagero player yesterday in ranked, taking a solo sightseeing the long way around because " we where up against US DDs and thus he "could do nothing anyway", hmm... So will it make much difference for the current gameplay overall - OP or UP depending on opinion - I really do not think so.

 

Oh, and I had a battle yesterday where we where ahead on points, 2 DDs (Assasio + V23) vs two cruisers. We had to deny cap's and/or reset to stay ahead until time ran out (and stay alive of cause). Possibly the worst situation for an assasio as you can do crap to cruisers. However, we won by alternating shots on the cruisers resetting their capping efforts and staying well away dodging like mad men. Point being that, as with any ship in this game, it's the players choices that makes a ship work or not in any given situation - even if at a serious disadvantage due to a ship being weak in certain situations.

 

So,... will Assasio break gameplay, affect teamplay negatively, create more camping behaviour, naaah not really. Many that have bought it solely to become the great big BB killer will realise that the concious BB players easily find the ship wide gaps between torpedo spreads from Assasio with a little WASD hacking and the BB border huggers will still be BB border huggers. Those that stay with the Assasio to learn to play the ship and do more that just flank, so as not to be bored to death, and then there will be the odd clueless players that will always be clueless no matter what ship they sail at what level. No big difference in the big picture I think.

 

[invicta2012]

Surely Fubuki is a better bet for learning to stealth torp BBs?

 

I have played a couple of games against Asashios and in both cases it got spotted early and sunk due to lack of firepower... they fired off some torp salvos but everyone just fired up their hydro and they were easily spotted and evaded. If I had one I would try 10-12k range torping against an engaged target, rather like Duca D'Aosta - that can be very effective. 

 

3 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

"The general opinion that DDs should actively contest caps" comes especially strong from above-average DD players. You claim otherwise - you insist that DD's primary job is to spot... and, dare say, how does this work out for you?

 

The thing about contesting caps is that it doesn't mean charging YOLO style into the cap and getting into a knife fight.  Letting your opponent reveal themselves and restrict their movement (by trying to take the cap first) is often more effective, especially if your opponent drops smoke - you can just fill the area with torpedoes, quite often gets a kill, provided that some divot of a team mate doesn't park themselves between you and the enemy....

[Tubit101]

16 hours ago, MortenTardo said:

So i'm asking, what is the point of releasing braindead idiotic ships like this WG? Could you not make it fun and good for teamplay. It is a DD after all and DD's are meant to be teamplayers.

WG's words. Not mine BTW.

I find WG's view on "team play" very amusing. Apparently only one portion of the team are meant to be team players and they're not even going to get rewarded for it on an individual basis (no XP rewards for spotting and setting up smoke for others, etc). Rather, it appears their job is to "take one for the team" every time they press 'Battle!'. That. is. funny!

 

This sort of developer attitude also goes a long way to explain the bitterness and fatalism I see dominating this forum; "There is no team play in ranked", "F*** it. I just want to feast on people's tears", etc. etc.

 

From what I've seen of the Asashio so far, it seems to be best at baiting half the enemy team into chasing it across the map, because everyone already hate it so much. But yeah, it doesn't really have the speed for that either.

[Sub_Human]

Potatoes are going to vegetate? And unicorns will be shitting rainbows in any ship. I dont think Asashio will matter all that much in the long run. I bought one and love it so far. Played mainly in ranked thus far. 2 wins out of 3 I think. Might be 3 out of 4 or 2-2. Its basicly a kagero. It sucks vs cruisers but can torp the bbs behind the cap. In both ships, Kagero or Asashio, you will need teamsupport. In that aspect its not that different. In a high ca/cl environment I would go Kagero. But as the ranked meta is moving towards 3dds and 4bbs the Asashio is not a bad pick. You push the bbs back leaving room for your bbs to push forward. The counter is good dds screening their bbs detecting torps. This is really not much different from normal play...

[Tubit101]

1 minute ago, Systergummi said:

Potatoes are going to vegetate? And unicorns will be shitting rainbows in any ship. I dont think Asashio will matter all that much in the long run. I bought one and love it so far. Played mainly in ranked thus far. 2 wins out of 3 I think. Might be 3 out of 4 or 2-2. Its basicly a kagero. It sucks vs cruisers but can torp the bbs behind the cap. In both ships, Kagero or Asashio, you will need teamsupport. In that aspect its not that different. In a high ca/cl environment I would go Kagero. But as the ranked meta is moving towards 3dds and 4bbs the Asashio is not a bad pick. You push the bbs back leaving room for your bbs to push forward. The counter is good dds screening their bbs detecting torps. This is really not much different from normal play...

Well that's the problem, isn't it? This is arguably the same situation as with CVs. You have a ship that is so poorly balanced that it will pivot games too much in either direction, depending on the skill of the person playing it and the other ships being fielded.

[walter3kurtz]

Meanwhile on wows-numbers

 

Asashio	8	Destroyer	Japan	2 025	56.69 %	1.01	67 274	1 718	0.02	2.71
Hsienyang	8	Destroyer	Pan-Asia	211 815	52.82 %	0.73	36 473	1 531	0.31	1.27
Kiev	8	Destroyer	U.S.S.R.	557 005	50.2 %	0.59	33 056	1 275	0.22	0.93
Akizuki	8	Destroyer	Japan	685 208	51.67 %	0.66	32 829	1 381	1.01	1.02
Z-23	8	Destroyer	Germany	1 010 696	51.73 %	0.65	30 066	1 374	0.15	1.04
Kidd	8	Destroyer	U.S.A.	114 037	54.15 %	0.67	30 055	1 540	2.31	1.23
Benson	8	Destroyer	U.S.A.	3 679 665	51.56 %	0.69	29 677	1 323	0.35	1.1
Kagero	8	Destroyer	Japan	2 593 951	49.93 %	0.63	29 616	1 207	0.08	1.01
Tashkent (< 06.03.2017)	8	Destroyer	U.S.S.R.	653 016	49.91 %	0.62	29 038	1 332	0.28	0.9
Fubuki (< 01.12.2016)	8	Destroyer	Japan	3 067 646	49.26 %	0.63	28 294	1 268	0.21	1
HSF Harekaze	8	Destroyer	Japan	289 851	50.59 %	0.59	27 496	1 346	0.27	0.93
Ognevoi	8	Destroyer	U.S.S.R.	674 176	48.71 %	0.54	26 020	1 209	0.19	0.83
Loyang	8	Destroyer	Pan-Asia	881 205	50.21 %	0.57	24 777	1 339	0.36	0.9

 

Yeah the sample size is small, whatever. But these numbers indicate a very strong ship so far.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

14 minutes ago, walter3kurtz said:

Meanwhile on wows-numbers

 

Asashio	8	Destroyer	Japan	2 025	56.69 %	1.01	67 274	1 718	0.02	2.71
Hsienyang	8	Destroyer	Pan-Asia	211 815	52.82 %	0.73	36 473	1 531	0.31	1.27
Kiev	8	Destroyer	U.S.S.R.	557 005	50.2 %	0.59	33 056	1 275	0.22	0.93
Akizuki	8	Destroyer	Japan	685 208	51.67 %	0.66	32 829	1 381	1.01	1.02
Z-23	8	Destroyer	Germany	1 010 696	51.73 %	0.65	30 066	1 374	0.15	1.04
Kidd	8	Destroyer	U.S.A.	114 037	54.15 %	0.67	30 055	1 540	2.31	1.23
Benson	8	Destroyer	U.S.A.	3 679 665	51.56 %	0.69	29 677	1 323	0.35	1.1
Kagero	8	Destroyer	Japan	2 593 951	49.93 %	0.63	29 616	1 207	0.08	1.01
Tashkent (< 06.03.2017)	8	Destroyer	U.S.S.R.	653 016	49.91 %	0.62	29 038	1 332	0.28	0.9
Fubuki (< 01.12.2016)	8	Destroyer	Japan	3 067 646	49.26 %	0.63	28 294	1 268	0.21	1
HSF Harekaze	8	Destroyer	Japan	289 851	50.59 %	0.59	27 496	1 346	0.27	0.93
Ognevoi	8	Destroyer	U.S.S.R.	674 176	48.71 %	0.54	26 020	1 209	0.19	0.83
Loyang	8	Destroyer	Pan-Asia	881 205	50.21 %	0.57	24 777	1 339	0.36	0.9

 

Yeah the sample size is small, whatever. But these numbers indicate a very strong ship so far.

 

I have been waiting for that.

 

#1 Early stats are always way better!

 

#2 Even the biggest loser can make the ship somewhat work by just spamming those DW torps with the TRB. And since the enemy DDs will usually be too stupid to properly counter him, it will work in Randoms. Unlike a normal DD, which the usual potato simply cannot make work on average.

[ShinGetsu]

Average damage doesn't mean anything on this ship.

 

Most DDs do their damage by shooting at other DDs and getting some torps hits. Asashio only purpose is to hit BBs. Hence the damage WILL be higher.

But in term of match influence, and economy income ? Nope. Harekaze is a better moneymaker since credits and XP are rewarded based on the % of HP dealt and not on pure damage number.

 

In case you didn't notice, Lo Yang got the smallest average damage and low overall stats. Despites being the most freaking OP tier 8 DD, maybe tied with Kidd. But it only have 24k average because it does ALL its damage on enemy DDs !

 

Harekaze is a far superior ship compared to Asashio. The 100mm are great and the torpedoes are very good and reload quite fast.

 

As for the winrate, it will go down.

 

That ship is (sadly) garbage, and no amount of wishful thinking will overturn that fact.

[Sub_Human]

24 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

Average damage doesn't mean anything on this ship.

 

Most DDs do their damage by shooting at other DDs and getting some torps hits. Asashio only purpose is to hit BBs. Hence the damage WILL be higher.

But in term of match influence, and economy income ? Nope. Harekaze is a better moneymaker since credits and XP are rewarded based on the % of HP dealt and not on pure damage number.

 

In case you didn't notice, Lo Yang got the smallest average damage and low overall stats. Despites being the most freaking OP tier 8 DD, maybe tied with Kidd. But it only have 24k average because it does ALL its damage on enemy DDs !

 

Harekaze is a far superior ship compared to Asashio. The 100mm are great and the torpedoes are very good and reload quite fast.

 

As for the winrate, it will go down.

 

That ship is (sadly) garbage, and no amount of wishful thinking will overturn that fact.

I trend to agree. Harekaze, LoYang and Kidd are better and more OP ships. Asashio is and will be a BB counter. But as BBs are so prevalent and OP as they are. It will be insanely strongt in the current meta.

[HaachamaShipping]

6 minutes ago, Systergummi said:

I trend to agree. Harekaze, LoYang and Kidd are better and more OP ships. Asashio is and will be a BB counter. But as BBs are so prevalent and OP as they are. It will be insanely strongt in the current meta.

It will be situationally strong. It will be good when everyone is potato, so that raw BB strength makes the difference. If the enemy BBs are not potato, Asashio will be far less decisive and they will dominate. If the enemy team is potato and your team is not, they'd have enough ways to kill BBs anyhow. This ship thrives on being thrown into teams of morons vs teams of morons where taters gonna tate and haters gonna hate this ship for being "oh so OP", until you get into competent teams where it doesn't do crap or it will be up vs a bunch of cruisers and DDs at the end and cannot claw back.

[walter3kurtz]

1 hour ago, ShinGetsu said:

Average damage doesn't mean anything on this ship.

 

All averages are significantly better not just damage. I doubt the stats will take a huge dive but we'll see. The thing is, Asashio has the potential to do easy 200k games (as shown by Flambass and others) and scare an entire flank - meaning more wins, caps and XP too - mixed with 0 damage games. So simply torp boat to the extreme. That is not a weakness it just means it's inconsistent. That makes these early stats more impressive not less.

 

Quote

In case you didn't notice, Lo Yang got the smallest average damage and low overall stats. Despites being the most freaking OP tier 8 DD, maybe tied with Kidd. But it only have 24k average because it does ALL its damage on enemy DDs !

 

LoYang has pitiful averages (not only damage in case you didn't notice) because it was really mediocre for years (pre hydro buff) and potatoes had a lot of time to drag the averages down. We do see average LoYang damage on the rise recently, showing that it was indeed a pretty bad ship before. https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/100270-comparison-of-statistics-for-all-ships-all-time-data-vs-last-week-data/

 

It's not the most freaking OP tier 8 DD either.

[ShinGetsu]

17 minutes ago, walter3kurtz said:

 

 

Lo yang not the most freaking OP tier 8 DD either.

Except it is.

 

You gotta explain me how the heck HsienYang got better stats than Benson despite being one of the weakest tier 8 too.

 

Server stats basically prove nothing, they just show which ship were introduced earlier, if anything.

[Sub_Human]

3 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

It will be situationally strong. It will be good when everyone is potato, so that raw BB strength makes the difference. If the enemy BBs are not potato, Asashio will be far less decisive and they will dominate. If the enemy team is potato and your team is not, they'd have enough ways to kill BBs anyhow. This ship thrives on being thrown into teams of morons vs teams of morons where taters gonna tate and haters gonna hate this ship for being "oh so OP", until you get into competent teams where it doesn't do crap or it will be up vs a bunch of cruisers and DDs at the end and cannot claw back.

Yes very much this. But a semicompetent player will understand that you can sink or scare of the bbs in the oposing team, thus creating lebensraum for the cruisers. Who can now kill DDs wich you spot. Major recipe for teamwork and awesome win.

[HaachamaShipping]

50 minutes ago, Systergummi said:

Yes very much this. But a semicompetent player will understand that you can sink or scare of the bbs in the oposing team, thus creating lebensraum for the cruisers. Who can now kill DDs wich you spot. Major recipe for teamwork and awesome win.

And a semicompetent enemy BB will not be scared. As said, you are betting on enemy potato BBs and your folks being potato enough to struggle vs their BBs but competent enough to use the advantage you might create. Sadly, it works more often than it should, but in general, most other T8 DDs are far more consistent in performance and can handle many more situations. And in terms of impact, Asashio farms BB damage over the course of the game and it farms damage on a class that is highly resilient to damage and can actually repair some (most torp damage will stick, but for example floodings or fires can later be repaired, if the ship survives). Short of nuking a grouped up flotilla of BBs at the start of the game, the impact will be far lower than say a Loyang that goes into a cap and has 2-3 DDs suicide into its hydro range and die right at the start of the match or be so severely crippled that these DDs are easy kills for the rest of the game. And sure, DDs might not potato into a Loyang all the time, but you also don't get a load of dumb BBs all the time.

 

So, as said, the Asashio can do something. It just is not anywhere as consistently valuable as the qualities of any other T8 DD and it diminishes in value far more the more competent teams get.

[jaylan93]

I would just like to remind you that I am the only and the original Cornhulio and that I will kill you every time in this ship. It doesn’t matter if you camp or you charge you are equally doomed. I actually prefer it when you rush me in smoke, it just gives more targets. If you hear cornhulio is in your game, and you are in a BB, then just begin to weep slowly and wait to be whacked. Any time, any place, anywhere. Thank you WG.

 

;-)

[cpt_edward]

TEAMPLAY.

is this a thing in this game ???

if it is why is noone supporting the destroyers in caps instead of camping and expect them to do all the work for them.