Buyer's Remorse - Asashio edition **BUY HAREKAZE INSTEAD**

[Tomaso85]

oh guys please don't regret your bad decisions..... i love having players that just bought the newest premium ship and still haven't learned or realised it's potential and off to the forums... at least play more so i get more fun in the game..... pleeeeease 

[ShinGetsu]

14 minutes ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

Especially if the enemy team has a Harekaze or Loyang.

Or a Benson. Or a Z-23. Or an Akizuki. Even a HsienYang. Or a Kidd.

Hell, even a Leningrad, Mahan, Sims, Bly or Gadjah would be scary.

[Verblonde]

I've only played about a dozen games in mine so far, but she makes for a fun bit of variety; I've found her to be slightly better than I expected, although I would suggest that only the very best DD players should try her in ranked.

 

If you're only going to buy one premium DD, it absolutely shouldn't be Asashio, but she can be good fun none the less.

 

My tentative approach is to use her as a training tool on being a more effective sneaky player, in conjunction with the (poor) guns; whilst I'm doing that, I can use the torps to counter enemy BBs, so as not to be a complete liability to my team.

 

One thing I did find with the torps - it's sometimes more productive to go after the camping BBs, even though they're at greater range than pushing ones - the latter are often actively trying to dodge, whilst the former seem to be more likely to be going at a constant speed in a straight line. I may just have got lucky though...

[Talladega_Night]

I took her into a ranked battle for the lols, ended up doong 160k damage, capped all the points and carried the game as every else hid behind islands.

 

Wasnt expecting to do that in a BB only killer. 

[stinkmorchel]

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/3751687888,Asashio/

well.....................

[HaachamaShipping]

2 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

What I like about the Asashio is that it has two spheres of influence - a 16/20km one for damaging BB, and a ~10km one for capping/spotting/fighting DD. The Kagero/Harekaze only have a 10km sphere of influence.

Now the Kagero/Harekaze are stronger in their 10km (as their torps work against anything), but they cant do multiple things the way the Asashio can.

Simply the Asashio can contest caps while torping border humping BB. The Kagero/Harekaze can only do one at a time.

 

However my issue is that most Asashio players dont do this. They either sail off merrily never going near a cap, or they try to stay 20km from the nearest enemy BB, because, you know, 15km stealth buffer zone is risky business

Ahahahaha, that's a good one. Sure, you have your awesome 16-20 km range, to torpedo derps that removed themselves already from any meaningful fight to save hp for the next match. But within that 10 km sphere, oh boy...

 

Asashio can do what? Spot? It spots most DDs at like under 6 km. If it spots a smoke cloud, it cannot do anything, because we have yet to introduce a BB with smoke. If it spots a cruiser, it better not have radar or you better activate that speed boost and gtfo of there. You might use your guns, but your DPM is utterly garbage and chances are everyone hates you so much, you'll be priority target #1 (as if DDs aren't that already).

 

Meanwhile a Harekaze can not just torpedo anything in its 10 km sphere, it actually has a goddamn 9.4 km sphere of 3/4 Akizuki gun power. A good Harekaze has pretty decent chances to shred any lower tier DD and most same tier DDs, excluding the Akizuki, the Kidd, the Benson (pretty even though, in my opinion, and absolutely in Harekaze's favour if it can actually kite the Benson) and Loyang (with hydro and smoke up. If either one is on CD, Loyang is a worse Benson and not too hard to kill). If you get into a multi-DD gunfight, your guns actually provide meaningful support. If you find a smoke (or lay your own) you can be an utter annoyance to anything with your DPM, and not get easily rushed, because your torpedoes actually can delete anything at 2 km point blank.

 

So, yes, Asashio has two spheres, Harekaze has one. But an Asashio can do a very limited amount of things in either, while the Harekaze can do an awful lot in the one it has. and I gladly trade the ability to kill the moron at 16 km for killing the actually competent folks at 10 km, where the Harekaze can do what the Asashio can do and then a lot more. For the Asashio, most DDs that match its concealment or come close are an utter nightmare, while for Harekaze anything that matches it is a roadkill and for the rest you stand a fighting chance and have some deterrence.

[Mr_Tayto]

3 hours ago, walter3kurtz said:

ITT: a barely above average player with almost zero DD experience advises against buying Asashio

Ouch.

 

The ship is not garbage, it's not OP and the sky is not falling.

[Xevious_Red]

25 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

 

So, yes, Asashio has two spheres, Harekaze has one. But an Asashio can do a very limited amount of things in either, while the Harekaze can do an awful lot in the one it has. and I gladly trade the ability to kill the moron at 16 km for killing the actually competent folks at 10 km, where the Harekaze can do what the Asashio can do and then a lot more. For the Asashio, most DDs that match its concealment or come close are an utter nightmare, while for Harekaze anything that matches it is a roadkill and for the rest you stand a fighting chance and have some deterrence.

I would agree - the harekaze would generally be the biggest threat to the asashio due to neutralising its main strength (concealment) while having better firepower. The harekaze is also the better choice for ranked due to being more self sufficient and a stronger cap contester.

The harekaze is also a more efficient choice as you say because DD are usually more important, certainly in domination matches.

So yeah the harekaze is a better choice if you're looking for a competitive choice.

 

At no point did I claim the Asashio is a better choice. What I said was I like that it can do multiple things at once

[HaachamaShipping]

4 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

At no point did I claim the Asashio is a better choice. What I said was I like that it can do multiple things at once

It still cannot do as much as a Harekaze. An Asashio is like a pair of scissors, the Harekaze a swiss army knive. If you just want to cut through paper (BBs), it's way easier to use your Asashio scissors, though without too much trouble, the Harekaze can do it too. If you got anything else, the Harekaze will likely be way better at it and Asashio will either struggle to do as good a job or fail utterly.

 

It's not just that Asashio is not better, it's that the very reason why Asashio is not better is because it is so very limited in what it actually can do, as is the value of what it can do, compared of what other ships can do that are not bound by the same limitations.

[Verblonde]

Has anyone seriously suggested that Harekaze is not (significantly) better than Asashio? 

 

The only question is whether the latter can do *anything* beside lob torps at BBs; for what it's worth, I think it can, just not terribly well (which is why I'm using it to try and get better, because if you don't, you get sunk).

 

Like I said, if you only buy one premium DD, the Asashio would be choosing poorly...

[LOZFFVII]

31 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

At no point did I claim the Asashio is a better choice. What I said was I like that it can do multiple things at once

Except it can't.

As I pointed out earlier, there is no point in attempting to cap with Asashio.

Spotting with Asashio? Sure, you can do that, but then are there any destroyers that can't spot targets while attempting to stealth torpedo them? Oh, but then other destroyers can typically stealth torpedo enemy cruisers too, while the Asashio can't.

7 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

The only question is whether the latter can do *anything* beside lob torps at BBs; for what it's worth, I think it can, just not terribly well (which is why I'm using it to try and get better, because if you don't, you get sunk).

So your logic is "If this ship doesn't do some things well, playing in it must help me improve my ability to do said things".

That's like taking roller blades onto an ice skating rink with the theory that they must help you improve your ice skating skills because they aren't very good at travelling over slippery ground.

Skilled people make tricks like that look easy because they know what they're doing, if a newbie tries the same thing he's only going to faceplant. Over. And over. And over. And over.

To make matters worse, if you do learn to ice skate by using roller blades when time comes to use actual ice skates you'll have learnt all of the wrong lessons and you'll be back at square one, learning how to ice skate with mother-loving ICE SKATES!

[Shaka_D]

I bought the asashio....had a couple of games in her and I like her a lot, despite having games where my targets were limited....I also had games where she was devastating. Can't wait to play her in randoms because I've only tested her in ranked. One guy asked me why play her in ranked, 15 minutes later I had just under 200k damage, 4 kills and carried my team to an easy win. Other games I simply used her stealth and spotted. Good spotting wins games too.

 

ps: don't criticise me because I refer to my asashio as a girl. I'm being non-sexist and anthropomorphic.

[Xevious_Red]

49 minutes ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

Except it can't.

As I pointed out earlier, there is no point in attempting to cap with Asashio.

I must have missed this memo

[ColdWarFish]

Buyers what?

All the info was out there for ages, there really is zero reason for having buyers remorse.

 

As for me:

Yes, I bought Asashio.

Yes, I am happy and she is performing exactly as I expected.

Yes, I contest and cap.

No, I can't win against most other DDs in a fair gun fight, so I do not seek fair gun fights (as with any other IJN DD).

Yes, Harekaze IS the more flexible and therefore arguably better DD

No, I do not care, I own both. (Though I still need to take Harekaze out for a spin yet)

 

In the end, Asashio is a slightly retarded Kagero and only has her Kagero guns to defend herself against other non-BBs.

So I will play her like my Kagero and use her guns whenever I can capitalize on an advantage.

And looking at the number of MB kills compared to torp kills I got in my TRB Kagero, I am pretty sure I'll be doing just fine.

The only place I will certainly not take her is ranked, but if someone wants to... meh, their 'business'

 

Still, I really find it hilarious how much commotion this little one-trick pony is causing.

Just wait a few weeks and the hype will die off and Asashio might become as rare a sight as a Perth or Huang He.

 

On a side note:

This whole 'Asashio players will only flank and not cap' argument really lost all meaning to me when I was capping in Asashio and our Z-23 decided it was time to go to 9/10 on hotspot to flank instead of helping me out.

Cue a Loyang that wandered around from the other side of the map (that one I really didn't expect) and a Fletcher that has been there the whole time and was looking pretty beat up (mostly thanks to support from my cruisers) at that point and you can imagine how that ended for me.

Lesson of the story: Don't blame the ship for people playing dumb. They will play dumb no matter what ship they are in.

[Verblonde]

49 minutes ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

 

So your logic is "If this ship doesn't do some things well, playing in it must help me improve my ability to do said things".

 

Not entirely.

 

My logic assumes a starting competence with guns somewhere in the potato-average range i.e. me.

 

If we take Harekaze as a contrast: you have torps that will hit everything, and reasonably good guns. I have always found torps 'easier' to use (high levels of damage, and your spotting range doesn't bloom when you fire them), so my reflex when something is threatening me is to at least consider firing torps - in Harekaze's case, there is a pretty good chance that approach will work (at the level I'm playing at).

So, in Harekaze, I have the temptation to use guns rather less than I should. The torp option is simply not there with Asashio, so I have to use the guns against anything that isn't a BB - forcing me to concentrate on that method of attack, and hopefully get more proficient with time.

For completeness, I should mention that I'm also playing various US, KM, and Russian DDs as part of a spectrum of ships in this context (Asashio is the 'rubbish guns as only weapon on stealthy platform' part of this)...

 

 

[HaachamaShipping]

7 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Not entirely.

 

My logic assumes a starting competence with guns somewhere in the potato-average range i.e. me.

 

If we take Harekaze as a contrast: you have torps that will hit everything, and reasonably good guns. I have always found torps 'easier' to use (high levels of damage, and your spotting range doesn't bloom when you fire them), so my reflex when something is threatening me is to at least consider firing torps - in Harekaze's case, there is a pretty good chance that approach will work (at the level I'm playing at).

So, in Harekaze, I have the temptation to use guns rather less than I should. The torp option is simply not there with Asashio, so I have to use the guns against anything that isn't a BB - forcing me to concentrate on that method of attack, and hopefully get more proficient with time.

For completeness, I should mention that I'm also playing various US, KM, and Russian DDs as part of a spectrum of ships in this context (Asashio is the 'rubbish guns as only weapon on stealthy platform' part of this)...

 

 

Are you trying to torpedo enemies all the time in your US DDs, instead of gunning them down? If not, then why would you do that in Harekaze? It should not be too hard to actually learn that a Harekaze has guns that actually can work over a DD, just as it seemingly wasn't too hard to learn that Asashio has torps that cannot hit DDs. I practically only torpedo DDs if I drop spreads on smokes or as area denial while unseen, hoping they blunder into them, or at point blank, if it really just offers itself. Typically, It's way easier and faster to just maneuver wildly and get those guns firing, till the enemy dies or scurries off having lost no insignificant part of their hp. Or I die, because you know, that happens too.

22 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

I must have missed this memo

I contested and solo capped caps in my Bismarck (thanks to hydro, dodging torps and killing the sole enemy DD present in smoke). Doesn't mean it's made for capping. Doesn't mean it will do so consistently. Does not mean it even is smart to run into every cap just because I can (regardless of how f***ed I might be once I'm in there).

 

An Asashio can take uncontested caps easily, just like any ship with decent concealment. It is however hard-pressed to contest a cap against any competent foe.

[Verblonde]

2 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Are you trying to torpedo enemies all the time in your US DDs, instead of gunning them down? If not, then why would you do that in Harekaze? It should not be too hard to actually learn that a Harekaze has guns that actually can work over a DD, just as it seemingly wasn't too hard to learn that Asashio has torps that cannot hit DDs.

Basically, my problem is that the first weapon system that 'clicked' for me was torps, so my conditioned reflex tended to be to fire torps, even when it's bloody stupid to do so.

 

As a result, my gunnery was pretty poor, especially with things with moderate ROF (really slow, and I took my time to aim well, and high ROF, I'd basically 'walk' my shots onto the bit of the target I wanted to hit).

 

I'm still not great with guns, but a lot less bad than I was, hence my focus on getting less bad still with them...

[HaachamaShipping]

4 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Basically, my problem is that the first weapon system that 'clicked' for me was torps, so my conditioned reflex tended to be to fire torps, even when it's bloody stupid to do so.

 

As a result, my gunnery was pretty poor, especially with things with moderate ROF (really slow, and I took my time to aim well, and high ROF, I'd basically 'walk' my shots onto the bit of the target I wanted to hit).

 

I'm still not great with guns, but a lot less bad than I was, hence my focus on getting less bad still with them...

Typically, to train gunnery, people would play a gunboat. Asashio is the farthest you get from gunboat except maybe the Mutsuki. Asashio, imo, is not even a ship that teaches good torpedo usage, because of how the torpedoes work. No other torpedo system is this limited, yet this fool-proof vs a specific target? In Asashio you can devstrike crap from 12+ km away, because the torpedos are brutal, they are plenty and they run fast and far with low concealment. These parameters cannot be found in this combination anywhere else. Most often you would rather torpedo ships at ranges below 10 km, because of limited range, limited speed and the need to keep the spread under control, because if spotted, people would just dodge, instead of being utterly unable to adjust further than they did before spotting the torps.

 

In that regard, a Harekaze, again, is a better trainer, because its torpedo characteristics are pretty much stock Kagero/top Shiratsuyu/Akatsuki and pretty typical for T5-8 IJN (T9-10 have a bit more range at 12 km and some 8 km fast running F3s). So, you use them like you use any torpedoes on IJN boats since you got the Mutsuki. And learning when to torp from max range and when to go for just outside detection range is something you can apply to pretty much any DD that can stealth torp and which usually all are within 12 km, not 16-20 (except stock Shima, but given how awful those torpedoes are, they are not like Asashio DWT). For gunnery, Harekaze has three choices (though only one is good for staying competitive and not turning the DD into a stock Kagero or an anaemic USN DD), so you can test your gunnery skills there. Or just play more regular DDs. The 10 cm guns are a bit unique, but handling-wise, they are extremely comfortable to use, given they have 1,000 m/s muzzle velocity that falls off after a distance, so at short range, they are railguns, at max range, it is rainbow. At short range, you can pinpoint target DDs without issues (and ballistics stay favourable far longer than for USN guns) and at range you can shoot over islands. And this unique handling still gets shared by 1 other DD, with two more to be added soon.

 

In your case, I wouldn't say sell the Asashio or something (though I hate the WoWS concept of her), but I certainly would say, if you want to learn gunnery, look elsewhere. And anyone who wants a torpboat with decent IJN gun power could as well just go play Akatsuki, which can be acquired for free. Also Minekaze. I found these two are good ships for slight hybrid style. They do not go anywhere near gunboat territory, but their guns certainly are not just decoration (strictly speaking, IJN guns never are) and are surprisingly often a viable tool to kill off enemies. Especially, if one can work out the ballistics to their advantage. and torpedoes stay their main thing. Might also help with getting more used to switching on a ship where both options are viable at times and one actually gets to make the call, instead of being forced to use one or the other, because of one being garbage and the other being not applicable.

[LOZFFVII]

2 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

I must have missed this memo

First Question: How many enemy destroyers were in that match?

Second Question: How many enemy radar cruisers were in that match?

Third Question: Were there any carriers in that match?

Final Question: Just how incompetent do you have to be in any of the above ship classes to not be able to counter a solo-capping Asashio?

 

Conclusion (based on a lack of information): You got lucky. *Shrug Emoji* (There should really be a shrug emoji)

---

On another note: congrats to everyone making Asashio work at the moment.

You're certainly making us naysayers look like fools...

At least until everyone gets used to Asashio and works out how to counter her (in the myriad of ways already described basically everywhere).

Reminds me of one of my favourite weapons from a game I played a few years ago...it was pretty powerful when it was first released, almost overpowered in fact; until everyone worked out that it was only good on a flat plane and you could grief anybody using it easily by just finding some high ground. Was still pretty funny to see people crap their pants when they saw a seeker bomb rush heading towards them - and pretty epic to see someone just jump over all of them to get me (mad respect to that guy).

[Xevious_Red]

1 hour ago, Captain_LOZFFVII said:

First Question: How many enemy destroyers were in that match?

Second Question: How many enemy radar cruisers were in that match?

Third Question: Were there any carriers in that match?

Final Question: Just how incompetent do you have to be in any of the above ship classes to not be able to counter a solo-capping Asashio?

 

Conclusion (based on a lack of information): You got lucky. *Shrug Emoji* (There should really be a shrug emoji)

---

On another note: congrats to everyone making Asashio work at the moment.

You're certainly making us naysayers look like fools...

At least until everyone gets used to Asashio and works out how to counter her (in the myriad of ways already described basically everywhere).

Reminds me of one of my favourite weapons from a game I played a few years ago...it was pretty powerful when it was first released, almost overpowered in fact; until everyone worked out that it was only good on a flat plane and you could grief anybody using it easily by just finding some high ground. Was still pretty funny to see people crap their pants when they saw a seeker bomb rush heading towards them - and pretty epic to see someone just jump over all of them to get me (mad respect to that guy).

1). Three. Shima, kagero, benson.

2). New orleans, baltimore, missouri

3). No carrier

4). See all weekend player threads ever. Also why would I solo cap? You want the first cap to be where you have the most support. The other caps can be done later when the enemy are thinned out.

 

You put a lot of faith in the player base. Im sure most/all of the good players already are aware of what she does and how you can easily avoid/counter that. Given though the shocking number of people who manage to never work out how to deal with fires/torp/smoke/radar/planes Im sure there will be plenty of victims for a while.

 

Interesting side notes from playing it a bit more;

-it loves standard battle. BB tend to bunch up in their base, or all go lemming somewhere. It loves these. Also it doesnt have to cap, and thus doesnt draw attention to its position.

 

- you do actually torp the passive campers more than active BB. One of the things you notice is that regardless of which cap you go to, the enemy spawn is in range and LoS. The active players are at a cap. If thats the same cap as me, sure I'll torp them. If its a different cap theres probably land in the way.

For example, played hotspot. Had capped C, had just killed an enemy Asashio who apparantly didnt realise guns are a thing. While I was doing this, I could torp a yamato sat 19.7km away in spawn. And hit him.

The active BB (a montana that was aggresively pushing A) never had any torps come near him, since he was the other side of the map with several land masses in the way. The yamato, bismark and monarch that were sailing around their spawn all made interesting targets though.

 

-By killing/heavily damaging enemy potato BB early it speeds up your team's potatoes into doing something more useful. Normally your potatoes will spend most of the game firing at none useful ships. They might kill them, but it will take them 10 minutes to do so. By removing these easy to hit tempting targets, your potatoes then move onto shooting things that are actually more useful. This means that instead of your zao's shooting the bow on Yamato for the entire game, they might actually shoot enemy DD instead.

[LOZFFVII]

2 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

2). New orleans, baltimore, missouri

You and I both know that isn't a cruiser, and that nobody playing that ship would intentionally get close to an Asashio if they could help it.

2 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

4). See all weekend player threads ever. Also why would I solo cap? You want the first cap to be where you have the most support. The other caps can be done later when the enemy are thinned out.

Your screenshot showed 4xSolo Caps, no 'assisted in capture' ribbons. I only made a logical deduction - you solo capped four times, which would have been unlikely had the enemy been competent. Sorry if that wasn't clear from my post.

2 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

You put a lot of faith in the player base. Im sure most/all of the good players already are aware of what she does and how you can easily avoid/counter that. Given though the shocking number of people who manage to never work out how to deal with fires/torp/smoke/radar/planes Im sure there will be plenty of victims for a while.

Call it optimism, or call it naiveté if you want, but I like to hope that the player base isn't as bad as these forums suggest.

2 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

Interesting side notes from playing it a bit more;

-it loves standard battle. BB tend to bunch up in their base, or all go lemming somewhere. It loves these. Also it doesnt have to cap, and thus doesnt draw attention to its position.

2 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

- you do actually torp the passive campers more than active BB. One of the things you notice is that regardless of which cap you go to, the enemy spawn is in range and LoS. The active players are at a cap. If thats the same cap as me, sure I'll torp them. If its a different cap theres probably land in the way.

For example, played hotspot. Had capped C, had just killed an enemy Asashio who apparantly didnt realise guns are a thing. While I was doing this, I could torp a yamato sat 19.7km away in spawn. And hit him.

The active BB (a montana that was aggresively pushing A) never had any torps come near him, since he was the other side of the map with several land masses in the way. The yamato, bismark and monarch that were sailing around their spawn all made interesting targets though.

 

-By killing/heavily damaging enemy potato BB early it speeds up your team's potatoes into doing something more useful. Normally your potatoes will spend most of the game firing at none useful ships. They might kill them, but it will take them 10 minutes to do so. By removing these easy to hit tempting targets, your potatoes then move onto shooting things that are actually more useful. This means that instead of your zao's shooting the bow on Yamato for the entire game, they might actually shoot enemy DD instead.

All of this isn't really proving anything for your case of 'she can be good in multiple areas'. Sinking an enemy Asashio who wasn't as good as you? Yeah, I could probably do that, too.

Most of this is just 'torp enemy BBs = win', further emphasizing my point that she is a one-trick pony and a pretty toxic example, too.

[lafeel]

No buyers remorse here, I saw no reason to buy her when I already had the Harekaze, and nothing I have seen or read since has changed my mind.

[El2aZeR]

Actually met my first competent Asashio player today.

He contested a cap with my support (Zao).

He spotted a cruiser and a DD for me which I both killed.

He even offered to smoke me up (although I declined as it was unneeded).

And perhaps most importantly he cleared a path for me by killing 3 spawncamping BBs.

 

10/10 this ship is totally fine in my eyes. 

[walter3kurtz]

17 hours ago, Mr_Tayto said:

Ouch.

 

The ship is not garbage, it's not OP and the sky is not falling.

 

Seriously though, this dude played 72 battles in LoYang with terrible results and now buys Asashio and has similar results. I see a pattern emerging.

[Malfuss]

I've played another couple of games in her yesterday and my opinion is changing slightly for the better, I still feel useless when trying to contest caps, but having a bit more fun in her. Although I did get one battle where reds only had 2 BB's, still managed to sink the straight lining one though.