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Bics93

Zao: rudder or concealment?

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Hi everyone! I just unlocked Zao and I’ve a doubt regarding upgrades.

 

I enjoyed Mogami and Ibuki with the “double rudder” build for maximum kiting,  Zao however has:

- better armor scheme;

- fast shells that make easier to hit destroyers.

So I’m thinking that concealment modification would be a better pick to support allied destroyers.

 

The problem is that I’m not a good knife-fighter (I like French cruisers, Russian DDs, have no brawling German BB) and I prefer flanking and kiting, so maybe the rudder modification will help me playing Zao like an harasser. 

 

What do you think will be the best choice? :cap_hmm:

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Hi all,

 

Concealment means that you can disengage much sooner if situation is such that requires it (and not to mention ambush enemy from much closer)... therefore "Rule of the Thumb" is and always was "Concealment"...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

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1 hour ago, Bics93 said:

Hi everyone! I just unlocked Zao and I’ve a doubt regarding upgrades.

 

I enjoyed Mogami and Ibuki with the “double rudder” build for maximum kiting,  Zao however has:

- better armor scheme;

- fast shells that make easier to hit destroyers.

So I’m thinking that concealment modification would be a better pick to support allied destroyers.

 

The problem is that I’m not a good knife-fighter (I like French cruisers, Russian DDs, have no brawling German BB) and I prefer flanking and kiting, so maybe the rudder modification will help me playing Zao like an harasser. 

 

What do you think will be the best choice? :cap_hmm:

Hey friend.

For me it would be a shame not to take concealment, you will be nullifying the very good concealment value that this ship has (for a t10 cruiser).

But you have a point with the harrassing role the Zao can play, so in the end it is whatever fits your playstyle better.

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Zao's greatest strength is her terrific concealment (as well as the Nippon folded steel railguns™). Her rudder shift time is already the best among all tier X cruisers, but the real "issue" with Zao's manoeuvrability is her mediocre turning circle radius (840 m). As such, decreasing the rudder shift time won't have that much of an impact, while increasing the stealth rating will open up more possibilities and will let you be one of the best early game DD supporters (although without radar, but your DDs will spot the enemy for you).

 

In addition, if you want to stay at range, the current rudder shift is more than good enough to alter your course before the enemy shells hit you.

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Roughly there are 2 builds:

 

Concealment predator that strikes from stealth and otherwise kites from max range with range module.

 

Super-gears with double gears mod and reload mudule for more dpm + spotter plane for those other cases (maybe even the spotter upgrade + skill)- which then also needs EM or you turret rotation is abysmally crap - even for a cruiser, let alone one that relies on dodging shells fired from close range.

 

Both should be viable in theory, but I play concealment as well.  Zao has shitty concealment (just not as shitty as other cruisers tough) - nothing new on a cruiser, so if you ever want to follow a DD to a cap to support him you have to have at least some concealment. Same is true if you have to ever extract yourself from situations. The thing is: 3 reg pen hits from a high tier BB, not even talking about citadels, and a quarter of your health is gone - likely more because those realism shells that detonate multiple times in your ship. So kiting is not really an option if even stray shells punish you hard and your turning circle, again, is rather horrible .

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1 ora fa, Kartoffelmos ha scritto:

Zao's greatest strength is her terrific concealment (as well as the Nippon folded steel railguns™). Her rudder shift time is already the best among all tier X cruisers, but the real "issue" with Zao's manoeuvrability is her mediocre turning circle radius (840 m). As such, decreasing the rudder shift time won't have that much of an impact, while increasing the stealth rating will open up more possibilities and will let you be one of the best early game DD supporters (although without radar, but your DDs will spot the enemy for you).

 

In addition, if you want to stay at range, the current rudder shift is more than good enough to alter your course before the enemy shells hit you.

 

Tried it right now, you’re right: the turning circle is at BB level and I don’t think that the rudder upgrade will improve the sluggishness of the ship, seems that “double-rudder” is more suited for Mogami and Ibuki, I’ll take concealment mod...

 

What a fantastic ship however: 4kills and ~150k damage, still a loss because I failed at evading torps at 5 seconds before the end :(

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2 hours ago, Bics93 said:

 

Tried it right now, you’re right: the turning circle is at BB level and I don’t think that the rudder upgrade will improve the sluggishness of the ship, seems that “double-rudder” is more suited for Mogami and Ibuki, I’ll take concealment mod...

Like you put it yourself, the Zao has armor that works and a heal. The Mogami is made out tinfoil and has a citadel that I swear extend outside the ship, so it benefits more from having a 3.4 sec ruddershift.

 

And like kartoffelmos said a 9.7 km concealment cruiser with railguns that fire napalm drenched HE which sneaks close to your fellow DD's is brutal.

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Try both and pick the one that fits better with your gameplay. I play it with concealment (back in the days you could stealth fire) and now is still useful as it is said above (disengaging sooner and ambushing dds and broadsided CAs)

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23 minutes ago, B010011A said:

Try both and pick the one that fits better with your gameplay.

 

Thats either a lot of credits/captain xp wasted and/or p2w used

 

or

 

A long time between clan war-respecs.

 

 

Still a viable recommendation, but I felt the point above also needs addressing. Its understandable to go with what the majority recommends and only switch via clanwars if you find its unsuitable.

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1 ora fa, havaduck ha scritto:

 

Thats either a lot of credits/captain xp wasted and/or p2w used

 

Well I can unmount upgrades and respec captains for free, this week is perfect for trying new builds...

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True - that is if you have participated. Without knowing that for sure I tried to raise this point in order to avoid potential heavy spending - and also as a recommendation for others that might stumble upon this thread later.

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2 hours ago, ollonborre said:

Like you put it yourself, the Zao has armor that works and a heal. The Mogami is made out tinfoil and has a citadel that I swear extend outside the ship, so it benefits more from having a 3.4 sec ruddershift.

 

And like kartoffelmos said a 9.7 km concealment cruiser with railguns that fire napalm drenched HE which sneaks close to your fellow DD's is brutal.

 Mogami's 25 mm armor is pretty decent against cruiser caliber AP, DD AP, CL HE (if no IFHE) and DD HE. Obviously, you need to angle against AP and plunging fire can be a problem. It is a well armored ship against certain opponents.

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Flamu uses concealment but i love my Mogami's double rudder so i think it should work on Zao too

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39 minutes ago, Atorpad said:

Flamu uses concealment but i love my Mogami's double radar so i think it shoul work on Zao too

 

Haggs!!!! :Smile_trollface::Smile-_tongue:

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Concealment, no doubt about that. Concealment allows you to disengage easily, it allows you to outspot almost all cruisers you'll face. Also, it allows you to push close to a cap at the beginning with your destroyers to blap the first enemy DD you see with your impressive HE alpha, then stealth up and run away and kite. This is one of the few ways non radar cruisers have of having an early game impact.

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Parallel on topic: I'm seriously wondering in which (relevant) ship NOT to take concealment? IMO the alternatives are utterly bull[edited]....

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1 hour ago, Ferry_25 said:

Parallel on topic: I'm seriously wondering in which (relevant) ship NOT to take concealment? IMO the alternatives are utterly bull[edited]....

The only two ships I ever took something else other than concealment are Tashkent and Udaloi (I don't have khaba and akizuki, which I heard may also benefit more from double rudder). For Ibuki and Mogami, it is curious that OP said double rudder worked well. 

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16 minutes ago, tamagotchi said:

The only two ships I ever took something else other than concealment are Tashkent and Udaloi (I don't have khaba and akizuki, which I heard may also benefit more from double rudder). For Ibuki and Mogami, it is curious that OP said double rudder worked well. 

Not Akizuki, it gets 6km when fully specced, which is on par with it's competitors, and it allows the ship to get close ehnough to the enemy DDs to dakka dakka them. Not Ibuki and Mogami either, they get to 9,3 and 9,7 km when specced, it allows them to push caps with their DDs, stealth up when in trouble...

 

1 hour ago, Ferry_25 said:

Parallel on topic: I'm seriously wondering in which (relevant) ship NOT to take concealment? IMO the alternatives are utterly bull[edited]....

Basically high tier Russian DDs only (gunboat line). Ther's other options, but those are the only ones whose optimal 19 pt build doesn't include concealment.

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12 hours ago, Agantas said:

 Mogami's 25 mm armor is pretty decent against cruiser caliber AP, DD AP, CL HE (if no IFHE) and DD HE. Obviously, you need to angle against AP and plunging fire can be a problem. It is a well armored ship against certain opponents.

From the front, yes. But when you start to angle away that armor becomes flatter and the rest of the hull starts to catch more shells. So when you are kiting away you need to rely on WASD hacks or otherwise you will melt quickly in my experince with the ship.

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The answer you don't want to hear is: Both are viable builds and I guess you have to try it out.

 

Personally I think you can get away with single rudder and concealment if it comes to long range HE spamming on BBs and avoiding their return fire. Concealment comes in handy against DDs or for an ambush. However I know people that can make the double rudder work with comparable results. 
(BTW: Liked double rudder in Atago too)

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8 ore fa, tamagotchi ha scritto:

For Ibuki and Mogami, it is curious that OP said double rudder worked well. 

 

I’m relatively new to this game, but my stats on those ships seems to be over the average, except Mogami’s “win rate”,  which I “ruined” playing too many matches solo, underestimating the value of a good clan division :Smile_facepalm:

57F4DA7E-99C9-4012-AE0C-3D0EFDC7CE61.jpeg

237F0522-58E8-4641-8798-B1593A051CBE.jpeg

 

Edit: sorry for the horrible collage :)

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9 hours ago, Ferry_25 said:

Parallel on topic: I'm seriously wondering in which (relevant) ship NOT to take concealment? IMO the alternatives are utterly bull[edited]....

Well, my Kurfürst doesn't run it, but then again I only have it to relax and have some fun in between games where I play ships I'm more focused on my own competitive influence (and no, this doesn't mean I'm throwing games).

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16 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Well, my Kurfürst doesn't run it, but then again I only have it to relax and have some fun in between games where I play ships I'm more focused on my own competitive influence (and no, this doesn't mean I'm throwing games).

I mean the upgrade not the captain skill in case you meant that. I run secondary build on KF so concealment expert had to go for man secondaries. But I still use the ship upgrade.

 

For me target acquisition is too situational. It might be of value in an anti DD cruise build: charging a smoke screen. But the viable T.A. cruisers all have hydro or radar anyway so why give up the stealth? Rudder shift? For me stealth is more important than that slightly faster rudder response. Indeed maybe for the gun boat style DD's. But I don't like the warp 9 on the horizon pewpewing playstyle.

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37 minutes ago, Ferry_25 said:

 

For me target acquisition is too situational.

It's not situational, it is completely obsolete. Every possible role this module can offer captain skills and consumables do better. If you want to play a DD hunter 99% of the time it has something in its toolbox that can find DD's and torps in smoke. If it does not and you run the module regardless you are wasting a ship thats is most likely designed to do something else for a role it can't effectively do.

 

The other 2 modules are vastly better and actually offer something to a ship. Target aquisition offers nothing in its current state and probably never will.

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