Asashio - Just want to address the elephant in the room.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

This is it for me, since I am actually at work and you are clearly trolling.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

2 hours ago, Tivook said:

Yes and I'd say most people are in favour of that.

A ship that performs poorly at everything except stealthy torpedoes should not only be able to hit BB's. cruisers have excellent turning rate, spotting plane, hydro etc. There's no reason why Asashio shouldn't hit cruisers. It would be far better if Pan Asian DD's were unable to hit cruisers because they have excellent AA suite, excellent guns, better speed, oh did I mention that it has radar? Yeah, they have radar from T8.

What does the Asashio have? Nothing. Bad guns, bad speed, non existent AA suite. It has DWT and that's it. Hardly a fair trade off if you ask me.

Currently (very small time frame) Asashio is doing ok, plus achieving extremely large amounts of damage for a tier 8 DD.  I would suspect that damage to go down over time, but enough to warrant allowing those torpedoes to hit cruisers?  Seems like they would need major nerfs at this point.

                        WR               Frags          Damage
Asashio          54.50 %       0.94           65 010

Hsienyang     52.79 %        0.73           36 458

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

16 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Currently (very small time frame) Asashio is doing ok, plus achieving extremely large amounts of damage for a tier 8 DD.  I would suspect that damage to go down over time, but enough to warrant allowing those torpedoes to hit cruisers?  Seems like they would need major nerfs at this point.

                        WR               Frags          Damage
Asashio          54.50 %       0.94           65 010

Hsienyang     52.79 %        0.73           36 458

 

Don't take him seriously.

That guy is just trolling, because he wants his premium ship buffed to be OP.

 

Kagero and Asashio are identical T8 ships.

The difference is that: 

 

Kageros torpedoes have: 10km range and 10 sec reaction time, while it can only use smoke or TRB

while

Asasios torpedoes have : 20km range, 5 sec reaction time, and it can use smoke and TRB 

 

If Asashio could hit cruisers too, that would be too much.

[HaachamaShipping]

13 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Currently (very small time frame) Asashio is doing ok, plus achieving extremely large amounts of damage for a tier 8 DD.  I would suspect that damage to go down over time, but enough to warrant allowing those torpedoes to hit cruisers?  Seems like they would need major nerfs at this point.

                        WR               Frags          Damage
Asashio          54.50 %       0.94           65 010

Hsienyang     52.79 %        0.73           36 458

The issue is, you cannot buff or nerf these torps meaningfully without reworking them in a major way. They are the bread and butter of this DD. Buff them vs BB and it gets meaningless, buff vs cruisers and this ship will just be ridiculously OP, nerf it meaningfully and it loses the one niche it had.

 

And damage naturally is way higher. It farms the ships with the highest health pool. It surely won't be trying to actively target DDs and cruisers if it can help it (and the player know that their torps cannot do anything to these ship types). I'd still take a ship that did 60k damage to 3 high-tier DDs and cruisers in the caps over one that did 100k and killed a Kurfürst sailing straight in the enemy spawn. I think the damage will stay high, what will go down is WR.

[Oderisson]

I am a battleship main and think that asashio is ok. It actually promotes good gameplay. Normally first ship in formation should be DD, then BBs and CA/CLs preferably close to each other so BB can benefit from defense aa and sonar while be more tempting target and draw fire from cruiser.

Sometimes DDs spot each other, and kill one off with torps. Now DDs should be more interested in scouting since Asashio cant torp them. And they should spot torps for fatter teammates who wont be able to dodge them.

 

Asashio is strong against lone battleships and only them, and from my experience if your formation has battleship in front eating torps you have lost the game either way.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

7 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

The issue is, you cannot buff or nerf these torps meaningfully without reworking them in a major way. They are the bread and butter of this DD. Buff them vs BB and it gets meaningless, buff vs cruisers and this ship will just be ridiculously OP, nerf it meaningfully and it loses the one niche it had.

 

And damage naturally is way higher. It farms the ships with the highest health pool. It surely won't be trying to actively target DDs and cruisers if it can help it (and the player know that their torps cannot do anything to these ship types). I'd still take a ship that did 60k damage to 3 high-tier DDs and cruisers in the caps over one that did 100k and killed a Kurfürst sailing straight in the enemy spawn. I think the damage will stay high, what will go down is WR.

 

Yeah, the torpedoes can never be buffed. The only way would be to rebalance them completely, closer to what PA have.

 

If the DD would really underperform, one could just give it 5.2 concealment instead, which would make it a better scout.

[HaachamaShipping]

4 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

 

Yeah, the torpedoes can never be buffed. The only way would be to rebalance them completely, closer to what PA have.

 

If the DD would really underperform, one could just give it 5.2 concealment instead, which would make it a better scout.

Complete rebalance is the better option. If it underperforms, it is because of the overall concept, not because it was not stealthy enough. 5.2 km concealment would just be some lazy approach to patch up the issue of this ship being situational.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

4 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Complete rebalance is the better option. If it underperforms, it is because of the overall concept, not because it was not stealthy enough. 5.2 km concealment would just be some lazy approach to patch up the issue of this ship being situational.

 

While you are not wrong, I like having really unique and special ships in the game.

Making it a super stealth-scout, that can outspot DDs and snipe BBs, might not be the most competetive approach, but it can support teamplay (in theory that is).

[RC_8015]

I got the Asashio because I am currently with every ship on T7 since a few days (Playing tier by tier, all nations, all classes at the same time). So I had the Tierpitz and Kii already, but wanted a DD for ranked aswell. Let's be honest, most people play BBs. In most matches you have about 3 not-BBs per team. So you have plenty of targets to choose from. Gave the commander Torpedo Acceleration, lost 4 km range, yes, but reduces reaction time for the enemy even more, and reduces the chance that the enemy dodges randomly even before spotting the torps. With 5.4 km spotting range you can hide pretty well and even spott enemy DDs without camo and skills.

 

In my opinion a good DD for the current BB meta, and fun ship for ranked. Its like a russian DD/gunboat, you have to accept that you cant fight all targets, and adapt your tactics arcordingly. Stay low, pick the BBS out, evade all cruisers, fight DDs if the situation is in your favour. But mostly......force 16 x 20k damage deep into the throat of the poor North Carolina which decided to kiss that island and hug the coast tightly. Ok....didnt have to waste the torp reload booster...but the explosion was so fancy and we had won anyways.

 

Also just fun ship, and managed to surpass my old record of 3 474 XP  in a match with Nürnberg,  getting about 3500 XP in one round.

 

 

So in my humble pleb opionion the ship is fine as she is, buffs for the torpedoes are not needed, as cruisers as targets would make her op as hell, and as premiums are supposed to be weaker/equal to their tier, or have some kind of twist (at least that how it was back at the start of WoT(and I know that not every premium fullfills that condition)), and other buffs are not really needed aswell.

[Bellegar]

8 hours ago, lup3s said:

 

 

 

 

I raise with Trappists and Abbey beers 

Those are the best beers!

One of the good things about Belgium

[HaachamaShipping]

7 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

 

While you are not wrong, I like having really unique and special ships in the game.

Making it a super stealth-scout, that can outspot DDs and snipe BBs, might not be the most competetive approach, but it can support teamplay (in theory that is).

Any ship can support teamplay in some way. Some better than others. Asashio certainly is among the worst teamplay DDs at its tier though. I like having interesting ships, but I'd prefer if these ships were ships with a reliable twist, not gimmicky meme boats that either go on a wild rampage or just die cornered as an afterthought of some cruiser or DD. Look at the Harekaze, a thing of beauty, it has strengths, it has weaknesses, it is competitive and it is balanced. It needed no outlandish gimmicks, it is a rather conventional design. It is different from Kagero and any other DD in the game. Apart from how great it plays, it is one aspect I love about this ship, that it is a ship that actually is a sound design, not something utterly silly.

 

And there are so many designs like that, why could Asashio not be like them? Instead, she is a ship that suggests either WG wants to profit from people pissed at the broken meta or it even is a very very lazy attempt at changing the meta. Which a sole premium ship won't achieve. Just like AP bombs didn't help. And while it goes into the realm of speculation, IJN DDs in general get to be like this and Asashio is the testbed, then maybe the meta changes, but it'd make IJN DDs an utter shitfest and as someone who plays them, I'd be very disappointed of having my main DD line reduced from very mediocre to utter meme tier.

2 minutes ago, RC_8015 said:

I got the Asashio because I am currently with every ship on T7 since a few days. So I had the Tierpitz and Kii already, but wanted a DD for ranked aswell. Let's be honest, most people play BBs. In most matches you have about 3 not-BBs per team. So you have plenty of targets to choose from. Gave the commander Torpedo Acceleration, lost 4 km range, yes, but reduces reaction time for the enemy even more, and reduces the chance that the enemy dodges randomly even before spotting the torps. With 5.4 km spotting range you can hide pretty well and even spott enemy DDs without camo and skills.

 

In my opinion a good DD for the current BB meta, and fun ship for ranked. Its like a russian DD/gunboat, you have to accept that you cant fight all targets, and adapt your tactics arcordingly. Stay low, pick the BBS out, evade all cruisers, fight DDs if the situation is in your favour. But mostly......force 16 x 20k damage deep into the throat of the poor North Carolina which decided to hug that island and hug the coast tightly. Ok....didnt have to waste the torp reload booster...but the explosion was so fancy and we had won anyways.

 

Also just fun ship, and managed to surpass my old record of 3 474 XP  in a match with Nürnberg,  getting about 3500 XP in one round.

 

 

So in my humble pleb opionion the ship is fine as she is, buffs for the torpedoes are not needed, as cruisers as targets would make her op as hell, and as premiums are supposed to be weaker/equal to their tier, or have some kind of twist (at least that how it was back at the start of WoT(and I know that not every premium fullfills that condition)), and other buffs are not really needed aswell.

If you know what you are doing, premium T8 DDs pretty much outperform their tech tree counterparts. I'm on the fence of whether asashio would outperform Kagero, but on average, I'd say yes. Not because Asashio is so great, but because Kagero is so mediocre (torpedoes are a bit too easily spotted to kill much other than BBs reliably and gets no seperate TRB slot, guns are same, AA is better but still bad enough even a skilled T6 CV can likely delete you). If the meta changes though, Kagero likely would beat Asashio by miles.

 

And if you want a DD for ranked, get a Loyang or Harekaze. The only reason Asashio might not perform like complete crap is because T8 only goes to rank 10 and you run into enough morons that you usually either win or you nuke 1-2 BB and keep your star. Which likely isn't too hard. But the more competitive T8 DDs are all picks with more reliable carry potential. And likely better if any future Ranked has T8 in the upper ranks, not in the potato ranks.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

7 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Any ship can support teamplay in some way. Some better than others.

 

Sure, but to some of us the game is getting boring without unique ships.

 

7 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Asashio certainly is among the worst teamplay DDs at its tier though.

 

It might not make it competetive, but with those theoretical 5.2 concealment it would be a really nice division mate for a support-cruiser. 

 

7 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

I like having interesting ships, but I'd prefer if these ships were ships with a reliable twist, not gimmicky meme boats that either go on a wild rampage or just die cornered as an afterthought of some cruiser or DD.

 

If you play Asashio as a lone-wolf, then yes.

 

7 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Look at the Harekaze, a thing of beauty, it has strengths, it has weaknesses, it is competitive and it is balanced. It needed no outlandish gimmicks, it is a rather conventional design. It is different from Kagero and any other DD in the game. Apart from how great it plays, it is one aspect I love about this ship, that it is a ship that actually is a sound design, not something utterly silly.

 

We all love Harekaze for that. But Harekaze is a self-sufficient DD and doesn't actually need special teamwork from a division.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

Sure, but to some of us the game is getting boring without unique ships.

I'm not against unique, but some ideas are just dumb. And Asashio in its current form is just dumb. It can work out, but it has weaknesses too glaring and the one thing it can do is controversial for a number of reasons. Some of which I already stated before.

5 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

It might not make it competetive, but with those theoretical 5.2 concealment it would be a really nice division mate for a support-cruiser. 

It likely is the only way to play it without just hoping for good matchmaking alone. Still, if you want spotting, there's two DDs that have the same concealment and both are more self-sufficient, both to clear out non-BB targets you run across and to play on should the cruiser die.

10 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

If you play Asashio as a lone-wolf, then yes.

You mean outside division? Is it too much to ask for a ship that doesn't need divisions or an actually competent team to be reliable? Especially given every other T8 DD is less limited and every T8 premium DD is more or less able to still perform ok on their own if all else falls apart. This is even more silly than the difference between the versatile Missouri that has radar vs DD, can kill cruisers and BBs like any other BB and has USN AA to fend off sky cancer vs the Musashi, which has trouble against DDs and carriers, but at least has a fighting chance against most enemy ships, compared to Asashio that at worst is relegated to farming spotting damage. And given I play DDs with 5.4 km concealment at the frontlines, I can tell you, this can suck massively.

20 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

We all love Harekaze for that. But Harekaze is a self-sufficient DD and doesn't actually need special teamwork from a division.

Yes, and why would I ever want to pay 35 Euro to play a DD that is more limited and niche than any other DD in its MM spread? Just because Harekaze (or any other DD) is self-sufficient also does not mean it is not a good division asset.

 

Not to mention, it is in no way necessary for Asashio to carry an utterly limited armament as it does now to be the asset it can be in divisions. Even if it was a Kagero with a DWT version of Kagero torps, it could still spot and clear out BBs the division stumbles across. Just not the BBs that are on the other side of the map. Give it decent normal torps and it even can be a threat to smoked up DDs.

 

and in random teamplay, yeah, I prefer taking on scouting duty in a 5.4 km concealment DD that actually can scare off enemy DDs from pursuit and doesn't invite getting rushed down. Disregarding that this ship might get the worst of community feedback, ranging from the PT indicator reaching 10+ the moment you ever get spotted, because everyone wants you dead to getting reported several times just for playing this ship. Which may or may not be justified. I certainly was pissed everytime I saw someone take this ship into ranked.

[VC381]

43 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Asashio certainly is among the worst teamplay DDs at its tier though.

 

What do cruisers fear? BBs. What does Asashio specialise in? Sinking BBs or at least acting as a strong BB repellent. What does that mean? Cruisers can now push with less fear and support Asashio. What else does Asashio do? Out-spot everything, so now those cruisers can do the things it isn't good at alone, like fighting off enemy DDs.

 

Inter-dependency, tactical synergy, enabling other classes, if that's not teamplay, I have no idea what you consider teamplay...

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

12 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Even if it was a Kagero with a DWT version of Kagero torps, it could still spot and clear out BBs the division stumbles across. Just not the BBs that are on the other side of the map. Give it decent normal torps and it even can be a threat to smoked up DDs.

 

Well, the 20km with TRB is what makes it unique to me, because it gives plenty of stupid ideas to launch at the start of the match. 

I would have liked it to be just normal torps.

[Yogibjoern]

Bought it on my other account. I would be much more useful if you had a choice between the 20km DWT or 10km regular torps. As it is now it's just a one trick pony.

[FishDogFoodShack]

1 hour ago, Oderisson said:

I am a battleship main and think that asashio is ok. It actually promotes good gameplay. Normally first ship in formation should be DD, then BBs and CA/CLs preferably close to each other so BB can benefit from defense aa and sonar while be more tempting target and draw fire from cruiser.

Sometimes DDs spot each other, and kill one off with torps. Now DDs should be more interested in scouting since Asashio cant torp them. And they should spot torps for fatter teammates who wont be able to dodge them.

 

Asashio is strong against lone battleships and only them, and from my experience if your formation has battleship in front eating torps you have lost the game either way.

 

Wow, you are a [edited]idiot.

[HaachamaShipping]

2 minutes ago, VC381 said:

 

What do cruisers fear? BBs. What does Asashio specialise in? Sinking BBs or at least acting as a strong BB repellent. What does that mean? Cruisers can now push with less fear and support Asashio. What else does Asashio do? Out-spot everything, so now those cruisers can do the things it isn't good at alone, like fighting off enemy DDs.

 

Inter-dependency, tactical synergy, enabling other classes, if that's not teamplay, I have no idea what you consider teamplay...

It does not outspot everything. It does not outspot the Kagero, it does not outspot the Harekaze (which can be a quick death in solo play). And at 16 km range, a BB that devstrikes your cruiser likely does so before you can torp it, at less range, any other DD could torp the BB too. And it works far less as repellent when you don't know that ship is there, which might be the case, unless you like to announce your presence and get shot at.

 

Also, every other DD could actually also help with enemy cruisers and DDs, because you know, BBs are not the sole thing your cruiser buddy wouldn't want to fight on their own. The only reason for this division to really have the Asashio in it is less because it needs an Asashio, it's more that the Asashio needs the division.

4 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

 

Well, the 20km with TRB is what makes it unique to me, because it gives plenty of stupid ideas to launch at the start of the match. 

I would have liked it to be just normal torps.

If it had gotten normal DWT, I'd still deem it not good, but it certainly would be better than now, in my opinion. I would have liked it to be moved to T7, as a normal ship (with T7 torps, T7 modules, trading torpedo power for Kagero guns as a middle path of Akatsuki and Shiratsuyu), or give it a less limited torpedo armament. Give it some Yuugumo options like the 12 km torps or 8 km torps in exchange for the garbage AA or worse guns if it has to be better at torping. You can delete things with those too. You can threaten DDs with 8 km torpedoes. Why did it have to be 20 km super DWTs?

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

8 minutes ago, Yogibjoern said:

It would be much more useful if you had a choice between the 20km DWT or 10km regular torps. As it is now it's just a one trick pony.

 

That would be pretty nice, since another DD would often not know, if you can just be rushed or not.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

3 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Why did it have to be 20 km super DWTs?

 

I only bought it because of the 20km.

Since I have Kagero and Harekaze already...

 

(sry for double-post)

[Oderisson]

8 minutes ago, FishDogFoodShack said:

 

Wow, you are a [edited]idiot.

Thank You for specifing your opinion. In this form its very valuable. Please dont use quote function in the future.

[Yogibjoern]

I think mine is going to rest in my port and only being used when a new BB line is released or If there is some BB missions. You can call it a BB safety valve.

[HaachamaShipping]

Just now, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

 

I only bought it because of the 20km.

Since I have Kagero and Harekaze already...

I didn't buy it because it has those torps, because I have Kagero researched and Harekaze already. And because I don't pay 35 Euro for a questionable concept that seems silly and might encourage one of my favourite ship lines to be made into one-trick ponies. If I want to hurt idiot BBs from 16 km away, I go and play Amagi. If I want to play an IJN DD, I rather play regular ones or the Harekaze, because they are just better at the typical DD tasks and even if Harekaze trades the T8 torpedoes in for better guns, the ship still is good at torping and feels distinctly Japanese.

 

And you are entitled to do with your money whatever you want, but it does not mean this ship is good, as a ship or as an addition to the meta or as anything. It might be interesting, if I ever get it in a SC, I might try it out to see what happens, but the concept will never be one I approve of.

[lup3s]

4 hours ago, Tivook said:

Again, from what I've read I'd say there are more ppl in favour of boosting it yes. Prove me wrong.

 

I'll try ...

 

From what I've read I'd say there are more people in favour of keeping it as it is now (i.e. Asashio's torpedoes can only hit BBs and CVs).

 

Am I doing this right? 

[Verblonde]

29 minutes ago, _Helmut_Kohl_ said:

 

I only bought it because of the 20km.

Since I have Kagero and Harekaze already...

 

I'm pretty similar; I'm rather enjoying Asashio so far. It's very situational (hardly an original observation), but usually quite good fun to play.

It's not a 'play to death' ship, but a nice eccentricity to take out now and again (especially when the BB plague starts to get a bit wearing)...

I don't think it needs buffing though; obviously, I'd be delighted if it got more dakka, but that would probably be the beginnings of a stroll towards OP.