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Worcester - excuse me?

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13 hours ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

Sure, good DPM, but if you stay at range I don't know if that thing counts as a DD hunter besides the option to radar them. Have you seen in Flamu's video how long it took between he started firing at the first CV spotted and when the first shell landed? Holy mother of anything sacred, my beard had time to grow there. Thank god the CV didn't move, it' exactly why I hate Atlanta, anything that moves and presses A or D every 3 seconds can dodge the incoming fire of that whing all day long at more that 11/12 km. And we're talking about T10.

 

Which is the basic problem with the whole USN CL line, because the ballistics are balanced around the gun being at T6 everything else about the ship needs to be turned up to 11 to make it somewhat competitive at higher tiers.

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7 minut temu, Crysantos napisał:

Thanks for your constructive contributions here!

I belive that making ships with concealment lower than it`s radar range is unfair for DD players. Especially if it has firepower to kill any DD before it has any chance of retreating.

In such case as a DD you don`t get punished for your missplay, you simply have no way to avoid death, if you face player determined to hunt DD`s (so he`ll hold fire).

 

I`m also wondering why would any ship get as good AA rating as Worcester. (Minotaur might be a good comparision for such ship)

It can single-handedly remove enemy carrier from the game (and there are still 11 other ships left on his team), and if it queues up with CV it`s basicly GG, unless his team is complete garbage, or enemy team has another Worcester (or Minotaur)

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2 hours ago, _VAMPA_ said:

Instead, DPS and survivability are used to calculate the chances of shooting down a plane in a squadron.

 

To be fair if AA power exceeds that of plane HP, as it is the case here, we can pretty much assume that it'll hit the "chance to shoot down" cap (90%) instantly, which also means there will be no survivability buff to planes as it is the average time it takes to shoot down a plane.

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1 hour ago, Crysantos said:

She's quite sluggish when it comes to maneuvrability and lacks the acceleration rate of the Mino.

 

@Tubit: Max concealment is currently 9.5 km (at least that's what I get with camo, CE module and CE skill).

Thanks for the update. I am curious about something, though.

 

Zao: 7.7s

Des Moines: 8.6s

Minotaur: 10.4s

Worcester: 10.8s 10.7s

Moskva: 10.9s

Henri IV: 11.8s

Hindenburg : 12.1s

 

This is a list of the rudder shift times of all T10 cruisers. Again, I'm basing my numbers on the aforementioned video. Could you confirm whether this Worcester rudder shift time is correct? Because if it is, I can't really see how it can be labeled as sluggish without calling the majority of other T10 cruisers sluggish as well. Wouldn't it rather be something akin to normal or average? Considering it has the second best turning radius of all T10 cruisers, something even better than that, perhaps? Personally, I consider turning radius a very important stat when it comes to island hugging. Acceleration is also important of course, but there's no stats for that. Perhaps there should be.

 

EDIT: I've checked with several other sources now, and they all say that the rudder shift time of the Worcester is 10.7s. This would mean that the rudder shift time is only 0.3s slower than the Minotaur. So, how is this sluggish exactly?

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1 hour ago, Crysantos said:

also full AA builds aren't  going to be the common build in randoms

This is a moot point as long as skill build has as much impact as it has on AA and you can division up with a CV for a guaranteed CV battle (thus screwing over the enemy CV that doesn't get teammates with similar "we know there will be a CV" advantage)...

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6 hours ago, Aukai said:

half assed minotaur?
Sonar, Radar, Heal and Anti Air panic mode  all at the same time?

plus its not lumped with SAP as its only ammo type

 

thats hardly half assed, aside from losing smoke and torps its either on par with or a improvement over the minotaur.

 

and so much for the 'year of the carrier' eh @Sub_Octavian? if you are so determined to wipe out your carrier base completely at least grow the stones to tell it up front instead of making false promises and dragging it out for your CV enthusiasts.

So what Worcester have? 12 guns firing every 4.6s seconds. That gives us whooping +-153 rounds/min with regular HE or AP of 152mm caliber. Excellent AA mated with DFAA, Hydro, Radar and Heal. 2nd best concealment comparable to Zao.

 

On other hand puny useless Minotaur have only 188 rounds per minute with superbuffed AP only. Merely 8 torpedoes with good firing angles per side, equal AA with no DFAA, the same Hydro, Smoke or Radar choice and lolheal. THE best concealment among cruisers of 8.9km, compared to 9.6km of Zao/Worcester.

 

Both have equal potential for island (ab)use due to low velocity 152mm guns. When angled bow on, both are hilariously undergunned to 4 guns total, 2/5 or 1/3 of total firepower. Worc SCREAMS for IFHE to guns have any effect and then they will melt RN/FR battleboats... Something any other HE flinging T10 cruiser can do by default. If you want to have "OP AA" then you need to pick 3 tier 4 skills, then you're limited to only one tier 3 skill. So either SI or Demo goes out the window.

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My thougths are pretty much the same as @Panocek When considering it as a DD threat, Wooster is basically a slightly repackaged Mino and I highly doubt it will affect the meta much. My guess is that the average Woosty player will either play extremely passive or be extremely dead (extremely early) with good players getting decent results (about the same as with radar Mino).

 

I can't really see how she is massively OP or hurtful for DD meta, as a DD player you should always check the roster anyway so you'll always be ready for her. Either wait for her to get spotted so you know where she is or play cautiously (as you would against any radar ship) when entering a cap.

 

The AA on the other hand is a stronger argument, so strong AA, with that range and accesibility to Def. AA (without sacrificing any other consumable as well) is a bit much. Even with only AFT she will be really strong.

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Let's face it ALL cruisers should have BOTH Def AA and Hydro, they are after all supposed to be utility ships, they're flimsy, have the same duration gun blooms as BB's, but they don't blink out like BB's on reload and they have to keep firing to do any real damage so they're visible to any BB that has a shot.

 

People are doing a real Chicken Little "the sky is falling" screaming session about the Worcester, mostly from a few video's by Flamu who is a stellar player and did a completely unreal test of maxed AA in a training room session.

I was watching that stream for quite a while and in several games he got completely molested on maps that didn't suit the ship or with teams that played poorly or both.

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Except Worcester AA is mildly better to that of Des Moines, yet no one screams their lungs out about her AA. Also to make the most out of it you need Manual AA to turn already powerful AA into overdrive. Skill more than unlikely to be used, especially as you're already tight on skill points.

DM: 91/335/43

Worc: 121/347/73

Mino: 118/315/61

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2 hours ago, Crysantos said:

 

I understand the the AA power is a concern and we'll definitely keep an eye on that but also keep in mind that HE shells take down those AA mounts quite easily, I had exactly that experience with her in battle - also full AA builds aren't  going to be the common build in randoms. 

 

Oh come on Crys... So noone is taking out full AA DM/Minotaurs?
Maybe not on Asian servers, but on EU they do...

So why wouldn't they go for the AA build on worster?
I mean, its not like you need to dump 60 cpt points into the build, AFT and AA module is everything you need to wreck any carrier comming even close to you...

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Just have it to chose slots one over the other like DAA/Radar/Heal in one, having Hydro as default in the other, to lock a player into certain playstile choice, she doesnt need much work.

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22 minutes ago, cro_pwr said:

 

Oh come on Crys... So noone is taking out full AA DM/Minotaurs?
Maybe not on Asian servers, but on EU they do...

So why wouldn't they go for the AA build on worster?
I mean, its not like you need to dump 60 cpt points into the build, AFT and AA module is everything you need to wreck any carrier comming even close to you...

Come on, I never said nobody will do this, I just said it's not going to be most prominent build. For this ship you do have to spec for IFHE for example, something the other candidates you mentioned don't have to do. I do have to mention such points because many players tend to panic when they see extreme cases and it's better to lead this discussion with a bit of context and actual gameplay. I'm not debating that this ship is an AA beast, I'm just pointing a few things to keep in mind when having this discussion. We'll pass along the feedback and we'll monitor the performance of the Wooster.

 

Greetings, Crysantos

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9 minutes ago, Crysantos said:

Come on, I never said nobody will do this, I just said it's not going to be most prominent build. For this ship you do have to spec for IFHE for example, something the other candidates you mentioned don't have to do. I do have to mention such points because many players tend to panic when they see extreme cases and it's better to lead this discussion with a bit of context and actual gameplay. I'm not debating that this ship is an AA beast, I'm just pointing a few things to keep in mind when leading this discussion. We'll pass along the feedback and we'll monitor the performance of the Wooster.

 

Greetings, Crysantos

 

Well, Minotaur allready is an extreme case, as is Des Moines, as is Grozovoi for example.
Don't trust me? Bring your planes into their AA aura. They will melt before you even spot the ship shooting them down, and literary "screen away", aka you don't even see the ship taking out your planes on your screen while playing CV.

And as I said, I didn't mean on FULL AA build with manual aa + 3 million upgrade + what not. AFT + first AA module to bump up your range is allready too much for any CV to even sniff around with his planes.

 

btw. just to clarify something, I'm not against the fact that USN cruiser has a good AA. That was always their thing, and worster should follow that line. But do we really need more and more ships with insane AA coupled with insane AA RANGE in this game?

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6 minutes ago, cro_pwr said:

 

Well, Minotaur allready is an extreme case, as is Des Moines, as is Grozovoi for example.
Don't trust me? Bring your planes into their AA aura. They will melt before you even spot the ship shooting them down, and literary "screen away", aka you don't even see the ship taking out your planes on your screen while playing CV.

And as I said, I didn't mean on FULL AA build with manual aa + 3 million upgrade + what not. AFT + first AA module to bump up your range is allready too much for any CV to even sniff around with his planes.

 

btw. just to clarify something, I'm not against the fact that USN cruiser has a good AA. That was always their thing, and worster should follow that line. But do we really need more and more ships with insane AA coupled with insane AA RANGE in this game?

I do understand and I appreciate the constructive feedback around that :)

 

Greetings, Crysantos

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54 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Except Worcester AA is mildly better to that of Des Moines, yet no one screams their lungs out about her AA. Also to make the most out of it you need Manual AA to turn already powerful AA into overdrive. Skill more than unlikely to be used, especially as you're already tight on skill points.

DM: 91/335/43

Worc: 121/347/73

Mino: 118/315/61

+30% stronger long-range aura - "mildly stronger" than the no-fly zone DM is.

Funny.

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2 minutes ago, eliastion said:

+30% stronger long-range aura - "mildly stronger" than the no-fly zone DM is.

Funny.

and even stronger AA then Mino, with access to def aa O.o  (Didn't even notice that she is actually stronger then Mino, even on long range)

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20 minutes ago, cro_pwr said:

They will melt before you even spot the ship shooting them down, and literary "screen away", aka you don't even see the ship taking out your planes on your screen while playing CV.

And as I said, I didn't mean on FULL AA build with manual aa + 3 million upgrade + what not. AFT + first AA module to bump up your range is allready too much for any CV to even sniff around with his planes.

I bet all the Des Moines getting sunk by a Devastating Strike would beg to differ. 

You are dramatizing and exaggerating. And you know it...

:Smile_sceptic:

One sided considerations will never lead to a balanced ship.

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22 minutes ago, eliastion said:

+30% stronger long-range aura - "mildly stronger" than the no-fly zone DM is.

Funny.

 

Neptune absolutely shits on DM in terms of large caliber as well, so either we're looking at total dps or hand picking some out of the arse values?

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43 minutes ago, Crysantos said:

Come on, I never said nobody will do this, I just said it's not going to be most prominent build. For this ship you do have to spec for IFHE for example, something the other candidates you mentioned don't have to do. I do have to mention such points because many players tend to panic when they see extreme cases and it's better to lead this discussion with a bit of context and actual gameplay. I'm not debating that this ship is an AA beast, I'm just pointing a few things to keep in mind when having this discussion. We'll pass along the feedback and we'll monitor the performance of the Wooster.

 

Greetings, Crysantos

You know that the top tier CV players WILL use these builds in their divisions. That'll make them even stronger. They already do that today with mino / DM. And Worcester is even better at it. Thus making it even more difficult for a solo CV. 

 

Don't misunderstand me, us and strong aa is ok. But claiming these builds will be rare? The people that have them will play them only in cv divisions.

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20 minutes ago, principat121 said:

I bet all the Des Moines getting sunk by a Devastating Strike would beg to differ. 

You are dramatizing and exaggerating. And you know it...

:Smile_sceptic:

One sided considerations will never lead to a balanced ship.

 

Are you a bit drunk or what?
What does AA have to do with dev strike?
Or are you implying that someone somewhere is farming dev strikes on DM with carriers?

 

And which one of my points were dramatizing and exaggerating? Pls point them out?

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1 hour ago, Crysantos said:

Come on, I never said nobody will do this, I just said it's not going to be most prominent build.

 

Thing is, why do you even have to build for AA? CVs are an integral part of the game, being one of the four classes you can choose from. Isn't it nonsensical that you have to expend a good amount of captain skills and upgrades just so you can defend yourself or others against a core part of the game and play to your air defense role as a cruiser?

And wouldn't AA be much easier to balance if you do it largely around base values instead of having to pay attention to skills and upgrades that are capable of turning even mediocre AA ships into no fly zones?

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22 hours ago, Infiriel said:

"Year of the CV" is already a meme, and so is "year of a DD"
Currently it should be like "Year of the cancer-ships, and camping BB`s".


I`m really wondering what are you even supposed to do about this ship planting itself behind an island (active gameplay everyone).
You can`t spot it with a DD - it has radar range better than it`s concealment.

You can`t bum rush it with a DD, or a cruiser - it has [edited] DPS, it will kill you in one, or two salvos.

You can`t torp it - it has Hydro because "Reasons"

You can`t air drop it, or even spot it, because it`s AA is completly retarded.

 

I`m really curious about logic behind attempting to increase DD, and CV population through adding another anti-CV, anti-DD cancer to the game.

Or is WG just planning to add "Remove a ship from the enemy team" option for dubloons?

hold your horses.

Worcester, it's WIP.

 

And will be nerfed to the ground before they release them.

 

And then, there's not much he can do

 

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48 minutes ago, Panocek said:

 

Neptune absolutely shits on DM in terms of large caliber as well, so either we're looking at total dps or hand picking some out of the arse values?

 

Worcester, according to numbers you posted...

 - sh*ts on DM's long range aura (+30%)

 - has slightly superior middle range aura (+3%)

 - sh*ts on DM's short aura (+70%)

So, seriously, what's your point here? Unless you f*cked up the numbers yourself, the Worcester is clearly superior no matter how you slice it - EVERY AURA IS EITHER STRONGER OR MUCH STRONGER THAN DM'S EQUIVALENT.

 

 

34 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Thing is, why do you even have to build for AA? CVs are an integral part of the game, being one of the four classes you can choose from. Isn't it nonsensical that you have to expend a good amount of captain skills and upgrades just so you can defend yourself or others against a core part of the game and play to your air defense role as a cruiser?

And wouldn't AA be much easier to balance if you do it largely around base values instead of having to pay attention to skills and upgrades that are capable of turning even mediocre AA ships into no fly zones?

THIS.

So much this.

AA build should be like most other aspects you can build for: it should be felt but it shouldn't change the ship on fundamental level. The impact should never be of the "take an average AA and make it into no-fly zone" kind. A big impact build should give maybe +10% DPM and range while also giving tremendous boost to AA survivability - now THAT would be a proper approach where ship's AA is mainly determined by the ship you sail but investing in it guarantees that it all doesn't just go to hell suddenly (and irrevocably) just because you took a salvo from Conqueror. Instead we get some ridiculous AA values that on many ships can be stripped off you for the rest of the match pretty much instantly.

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3 hours ago, Tubit101 said:

Thanks for the update. I am curious about something, though.

 

Zao: 7.7s

Des Moines: 8.6s

Minotaur: 10.4s

Worcester: 10.8s 10.7s

Moskva: 10.9s

Henri IV: 11.8s

Hindenburg : 12.1s

 

This is a list of the rudder shift times of all T10 cruisers. Again, I'm basing my numbers on the aforementioned video. Could you confirm whether this Worcester rudder shift time is correct? Because if it is, I can't really see how it can be labeled as sluggish without calling the majority of other T10 cruisers sluggish as well. Wouldn't it rather be something akin to normal or average? Considering it has the second best turning radius of all T10 cruisers, something even better than that, perhaps? Personally, I consider turning radius a very important stat when it comes to island hugging. Acceleration is also important of course, but there's no stats for that. Perhaps there should be.

 

EDIT: I've checked with several other sources now, and they all say that the rudder shift time of the Worcester is 10.7s. This would mean that the rudder shift time is only 0.3s slower than the Minotaur. So, how is this sluggish exactly?

Zao: 6.1 (7.7)

DesMo: 6.9 (8.6)

Minotaur: 8.3(10.4)

Moskva: 8.7(10.9)
Henri: 9.5 (11.8)

Hinden: 9.7 (12.1)

 

all TX Cruisers are SluggggS

except Zao

they all behave and feels more like T8 BBs...

Minotaur DONT LOOSE speed when in turn also have blessed acceleration and DR of 8.9km+smoke, so dont compare Mino with rest of the TX CAs

Also when we are talking about turning cant keep out maximum speed of the boats, and Worcester loooks like ***** in that department...

..cant run, cant dodge reliably, no blessed 27mm plating....cant defend itself if rushed by BB,  (no torps)...so "hug the island and defend it or die trying" lmao

if her citadel is not invisible looks like nerfed Atlanta.

No matter i love my Atlanta :Smile_teethhappy:

...and thats Atlanta with heal :Smile_smile:

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